Was Matt Moore's start against NYY impressive or not?

by SandalsNoPants on Dec 27, 2011 6:36 PM EST

(This is my first fanpost, and I can't seem to preview it, so sorry if there are formatting problems)

I've been having a "discussion" with some of the fellows over at PSA for the past 24 hours about Moore's first major start (September 22, 2011).

It started when one of their members seemed outraged that Moore had lasted 2 rounds in some MLB Network silly competition about the most talented players under 25 years of age, and I questioned why he had such a hard time with that.

I ended up posting something along the lines of this (or this exact quote):

Most of his innings include dominating the Yankees and shutting down the Rangers in the playoffs. That’s mighty impressive. He was nothing less than top notch.

Once I posted that, the conversation deteriorated into Yankees fans making excuses as to why the start wasn't that impressive. Reasons given relied heavily on the Yankees lineup that day:

Jeter ss
Nunez 2b
Teixeira dh
Swisher rf
Jones lf
Montero c
Posada 1b
Laird 3b
Golson cf

I see a lineup with a star SS (Jeter), DH (Teixeira), a great RF (Swisher), formerly great major league hitting catcher at 1b (Posada), future star (Montero), lefty masher (Jones), and a decent utility IF who amassed about half of a season's worth of PA and hits lefties better than righties (Nunez). Laird and Golson are the only batters in this lineup who are not of real major league quality.

Missing are some of the regulars who admittedly might've made the game a little different. Rodriguez, Cano, Granderson, and Gardner were not in the game.

Here is what Moore accomplished in his 5 innings (84 pitches) of work:

1st
Jeter struck out
Nunez grounded out (pitcher to
first)
Teixeira struck out

2nd
Swisher singled to left
Jones struck out
Montero walked [Swisher to second]
Posada was called out on strikes
Laird struck out

3rd
Golson struck out (catcher to first)
Jeter struck out
Nunez singled to second
Moore threw a wild pitch [Nunez to
second]
Teixeira lined to shortstop

4th
PENA BATTED FOR SWISHER
Pena popped to first
Jones struck out
Montero singled to left
Posada struck out

5th
Laird singled to right
Golson flied to center
Dickerson struck out
Nunez struck out

He faced 20 batters, and he struck out 11. That's top notch in my book, especially considering the players he had the most success against.

But first, the successful Yankees batters:

Swisher and Montero were the only batters not retired by Moore at least once. Swisher reached base once and Montero twice. There were a few other hits sprinkled in.

And now on to Moore's success:

Jeter struck out twice, as did Jones and Posada (a minor victory compared to Jeter). Teixeira struck out once and did not reach base against Moore. He even struck out Nunez, who is fickle mistress when it comes to lefties and striking out (9.1% on the season, 7.5% for career). Some of the less desirables also struck out, but that should go to Moore's credit, not against him just because they weren't the regular Yankees starters.

And that brings up the missing Yankees starters.

Granderson and Gardner are lefties, and they tend to struggle against left-handed pitching. Replacing Gardner with Jones was probably a smart move. However, replacing Granderson with Golson is a stretch, especially considering Granderson's success against lefties in 2011.

Alex Rodriguez was absent, but after returning from a week long hiatus on September 17th, he only went 6 for 32 (.188) with 2 XBH (1 HR, 1 double), 6 walks, and 6 strikeouts for the remainder of the regular season. According to Fangraphs, he only had 3 line drives over this period of time, also. There's a very significant chance that he would have actually done worse than Laird, who replaced him and managed a single against Moore in the 5th.

Cano was replaced by Nunez in the lineup, and there's no doubt that Cano is a much better hitter, but as pointed out earlier, Nunez is quite adequate against lefties, and he, like Laird, also managed a single, going 1-3 against Moore. Cano is a very good hitter. Excellent, in fact, and he has basically has no platoon splits to speak of, so it's impossible to feel good about thinking Cano couldn't have done better than Nunez because, frankly, that's nonsense. He may have gone 3-3 with 3 HR. Who knows?

Again, though, can that be held against Moore? Do the Yankees missing Granderson and Cano make this start not impressive even though Moore struck out over half of the batters he faced in his first major league start? Should this not be held with any high regard? Is his start in the playoffs against the Rangers his only impressive performance in the major leagues in 2011? Does the location of the start (Yankee Stadium) help the case for Moore? Is there homerism going on in on with Yankees fans, Rays fans, or both? These are questions that can surely be discussed, but most importantly:

Was Matt Moore's start against NYY impressive or not?

Poll

Moore's start against the Yankees was:

Impressive

71 votes

Not impressive

7 votes

78 votes | Poll has closed

This post was written by a member of the DRaysBay community and does not necessarily express the views or opinions of DRaysBay staff.

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Comments

It wasn't the standard Yankees lineup, but it was still impressive.

It was his first career start and it was in NY. Their lineup was still a competitive lineup and he struck out 12 in 5 innings. And was only pulled because the Rays were up a ton so they got him out after his 5 at 75ish pitches, so he could have easily gone 6-7. Just look at the other games that week when we had our more experienced starters going up against similar lineups and they didn’t fair as well as he did.

What he did against the Rangers in the playoffs was just mind boggling though and not on the same level of impressiveness as his start in NY. Game 1 of the playoffs to make his 2nd career start and pitched like a veteran. Game 162 and that Game 1 start by Moore will be very hard to top without winning a World Series.

by jtmorgan on Dec 27, 2011 6:46 PM EST reply actions

There were some good hitters in that lineup

Especially when you consider Montero, Jones, Swisher and Text Message can really take lefties apart and just ask Price if they are afraid of fastballs. No one could touch him through 5. I think bottom line about Moore is so far he has started 12 innings and allowed 0 runs.

Matt Moore. That is all.

by joeybw on Dec 27, 2011 7:01 PM EST reply actions

don't say text message on this site

"I don't always post off-topic, but when I do, I post at http://ottotd.com" - $tinky $tu

by pudieron89 on Dec 27, 2011 7:08 PM EST up reply actions

How about Teix message?

What could be better than Dan Johnson
hitting .108
Let's trade Reddick for Heyward!

by QW on Sep 28, 2011 9:47 PM CDT

by SandalsNoPants on Dec 27, 2011 7:48 PM EST up reply actions

Awful wordplay is not welcome here

by Ben Tumbling on Dec 27, 2011 7:44 PM EST up reply actions

This.

by mr. maniac on Dec 27, 2011 10:40 PM EST up reply actions

Here are some of the highlights from PSA:

The Yankees game needs to be put in perspective, as pointed out by greatscott. I think he’ll be a #1 starter in the near future in the MLB, but I wouldn’t cite that game.
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter
“No matter what I talk about, I always get back to baseball.”
“Every day is a great day for hockey.”
by Brandon C. on Dec 26, 2011 8:28 PM CST

I can’t wait for him to strikeout the entire lineup of
Pena
Laird
Mesa
Jones
Dickerson
Nunez
Maxwell
Romine
Culver
in spring training and everyone crown him MATT MOAR

If Banuelos did the same thing we would have lost it.
by Briceratops on Dec 27, 2011 2:29 PM CST up reply actions

Maybe for a moment, but I feel like we’re smart enough fans here at PSA to put even that hypothetical performance into perspective.
“Don’t you think it’s strange that you’ll make more money than President Hoover this year?”
“Why not? I had a better year than he did.” – G.H. Ruth
Posting pictures
by greatscott723 on Dec 27, 2011 6:04 PM CST

^^^This one comes after a post by their site manager today that compares Montero’s 69 PA in 2011 to the rookie seasons of Pujols and Ted Williams.

Look, I think Matt Moore has a great future. I just don’t think you can say "he dominated the Yankees" when the Yankees were clearly not putting their best out there. Their best hitters (Cano, Granderson, even banged-up A-Rod) were not playing, and Swisher & Jeter were removed early for the likes of Chris Dickerson & Ramiro Pena.
If you want to point to a game that portends good things for Moore’s future, just use ALDS Game 1- that was impressive enough. There’s no need to bring out a good performance against the mostly Scranton Yankees and washed-up "Mr. .092/.169/.108 vs. lefties" Posada.
“Don’t you think it’s strange that you’ll make more money than President Hoover this year?”
“Why not? I had a better year than he did.” – G.H. Ruth
Posting pictures
by greatscott723 on Dec 26, 2011 9:31 PM CST

I just don’t think You can say he dominated the Yankees. That wasn’t the Yankees, that was….a scary out making monster.
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter
“No matter what I talk about, I always get back to baseball.”
“Every day is a great day for hockey.”
by Brandon C. on Dec 27, 2011 10:12 AM CST

You can’t say Swisher was the only one that have him problems, Montero did.
He couldn’t do much more given the situation he was in, but the situation he was in is not a fair indication of how he would fare against the Yankees.
We’re not saying he didn’t pitch well enough that game, we’re saying due to the factors involved it wasn’t insanely impressive.
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter
“No matter what I talk about, I always get back to baseball.”
“Every day is a great day for hockey.”
by Brandon C. on Dec 27, 2011 11:50 AM CST

He did everything he could have to be impressive. Just didn’t really do it against anyone that impressive. (Other than Jeter, Teixeira)
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter
“No matter what I talk about, I always get back to baseball.”
“Every day is a great day for hockey.”
by Brandon C. on Dec 27, 2011 3:10 PM CST

I actually don’t agree. Let’s say Manny Banuelos made his debut in September, and faced the Boston Red Sox. Instead of their best lineup, they put out something like this (again, hypothetical)
1. Jose Iglesias SS
2. Mike Aviles 2B
3. Carl Crawford LF
4. Kevin Youkilis 1B
5. Ryan Lavarnway C
6. Josh Reddick RF
7. Darnell McDonald CF
8. Lars Anderson DH
9. Random utility infielder dude 3B
It would be nice and cool and all, and nice to see he can handle the "big stage," but I’d be less thrilled because…well…he didn’t exactly beat the Red Sox.
Follow me on twitter @nyybrandonc
Co-Manager/Writer for Pinstripe Alley, Editor/Writer for Blueshirt Banter
“No matter what I talk about, I always get back to baseball.”
“Every day is a great day for hockey.”
by Brandon C. on Dec 27, 2011 5:02 PM CST

Let’s be real here…
First off, I agree with Brandon.
I think you’re actually being a major homer and overrating Moore’s performance. Yes, he pitched well, but he didn’t "dominate the Yankees" as you’re saying (also pitching only 5 innings isn’t "dominant"). These weren’t the real 2011 Yankees.
Why exactly are you expecting Matt Moore praising at Pinstripe Alley? Go to D-Rays Bay if you want that, you’re at the wrong blog.
“Don’t you think it’s strange that you’ll make more money than President Hoover this year?”
“Why not? I had a better year than he did.” – G.H. Ruth
Posting pictures
by greatscott723 on Dec 27, 2011 6:07 PM CST

What could be better than Dan Johnson
hitting .108
Let's trade Reddick for Heyward!

by QW on Sep 28, 2011 9:47 PM CDT

by SandalsNoPants on Dec 27, 2011 7:57 PM EST reply actions

why wouldn't you cite a 12 strikeout in 5 IP performance as evidence of a great pitcher?

"I don't always post off-topic, but when I do, I post at http://ottotd.com" - $tinky $tu

by pudieron89 on Dec 27, 2011 9:58 PM EST up reply actions

Wasn't it 11 strikeouts?

And they will say the same thing. Not impressive due to the people he struck out. They made it out to be not a real major league lineup. I disagreed. This is the link to the original conversation:
http://www.pinstripealley.com/2011/12/26/2661257/mlb-hot-stove-report-links-to-stuff

What could be better than Dan Johnson
hitting .108
Let's trade Reddick for Heyward!

by QW on Sep 28, 2011 9:47 PM CDT

by SandalsNoPants on Dec 27, 2011 10:27 PM EST up reply actions

Were the Yankees 97 wins impressive?

They won 13 games against Baltimore, 6 against Minnesota, 3 against KC, and 5 against Seattle. (link)

Were Sabathia’s 230 strikeouts impressive? He struck out Elliot Johnson 5 times, Adam Dunn 4 times (remember this is crappy 2011 Adam Dunn), Miguel Olivo 3 times, and top notch hitters like Mark Teahen, Jeff Mathis, Austin Kearns, and Dewayne Wise. (link)

Everybody gets a chance to face some below average dudes. Success comes from beating the guy in front of you, when the opportunity arises.

Yes, it was impressive.

by ChiBurbRaysFan on Dec 27, 2011 10:44 PM EST reply actions

A little work here.

Here was the lineup:
Jeter ss: .413 wOBA against lefties in 2011, .398 career.
Nunez 2b: .321 wOBA against lefties in 2011, .317 career.
Teixeira dh: .410 wOBA versus lefties in 2011, .400 career.
Swisher rf: .412 wOBA versus lefties in 2011, .377 career.
Jones lf: .400 wOBA versus lefties in 2011, .360 career.
Montero c .506 wOBA versus lefties in 2011, 1.039 OPS versus lefties in 2011 minor leagues.
Posada 1b: .131 wOBA versus lefties in 2011, .359 career.
Laird 3b: .242 wOBA versus lefties in 2011, .810 OPS versus lefties in 2011 minor leagues.
Golson cf: .226 wOBA versus lefties in 2011, 6.616 OPS versus lefties in 2011 minor leagues, .285 wOBA versus lefties in small major lague career.

On the CONSERVATIVE side to this flawed but helpful analysis, the Yankees batters that faced Moore (1-9) were a .372 wOBA team against lefties (this is conservate because, while Montero performed well, the others with little experience performed much more poorly than expected based off minor league numbers). In 2011, the Yankees posted a .346 wOBA.

So please, go tell them that their arguements are a whole bunch of crap.

by mr. maniac on Dec 27, 2011 11:11 PM EST reply actions

You tell them!

I’ve already been threatened with banishments over other subjects over there, and I’d like to be able to keep posting there.

This fanpost was made so that I could get everything out at one time because it all needed to be said without interruption.

Thank you for that info, though.

What could be better than Dan Johnson
hitting .108
Let's trade Reddick for Heyward!

by QW on Sep 28, 2011 9:47 PM CDT

by SandalsNoPants on Dec 27, 2011 11:31 PM EST up reply actions

Not sure if this guy read your post or not, but he uses a lot of the information in it, and here's the response.

It seems that only a no hitter would’ve been impressive given what a crappy lineup they had.

Jeter, Teixeira, Jones, Swisher, and Montero absolutely obliterated lefties in 2011. Nunez, Posada, Laird, and Golson are weak hitters. If Banuelos went through a lineup with five ridiculously good hitters and struck out >10 during his first start I would be as excitied as I was when Montero took Jim Johnson deep twice. I don’t see how a lineup with five out of the nine hitters having >.400 wOBAs isn’t a real lineup in your opinion; that’s better than what most teams run out every day.
by Briceratops on Dec 27, 2011 11:31 PM CST up reply actions

Jeter, Teixeira, Jones, Swisher, and Montero absolutely obliterated lefties in 2011
Don’t know why you’re including Swisher and Montero in this, they went a combined 2-for-2 with a walk against Moore.
“Don’t you think it’s strange that you’ll make more money than President Hoover this year?”
“Why not? I had a better year than he did.” – G.H. Ruth
Posting pictures
by greatscott723 on Dec 27, 2011 11:55 PM CST

What could be better than Dan Johnson
hitting .108
Let's trade Reddick for Heyward!

by QW on Sep 28, 2011 9:47 PM CDT

by SandalsNoPants on Dec 28, 2011 10:10 AM EST up reply actions

I think the lesson we can all learn from this

is that Yankees fans are entitled whiners, and the only winning move with respect to talking to them is not to play.

by AndrewTorrez on Dec 28, 2011 2:23 PM EST up reply actions

In 1998 and 1999, Yankee pitchers David Wells and David Cone

pitched perfect games, Wells in ’98 and Cone in ’99. Here are the lineups they faced with the season OPS for each.

1998 vs. Twins:
Matt Lawton: .864
Brent Gates: .645
Paul Molitor: .718
Marty Cordova: .709
Ron Coomer: .702
Alex Ochoa: .642
Jon Shave: .702
Javier Valentin: .556
Pat Meares: .664

The Expos lineup Cone faced was better, but hardly championship caliber:
Wilton Guerrero: .727
Terry Jones: .620
James Mouton, PH: .732
Rondell White: .863
Vlad Guerrero: .978
Jose Vidro: .822
Brad Fullmer: .785
Chris Widger: .786
Shane Andrews: .648
Ryan McGuire, PH: .690
Orlando Cabrera: .696

A strong 3-4-5 but mediocre to poor otherwise. The OPS+ for the team that year was 91.

How much does that diminish the achievement of each pitcher? After all, the 1998 Twins finished the season at 70-92 and the Expos ended 1999 at 68-94.

A rookie pitcher who in his first major league start-in Yankee Stadium no less-strikes out 11 and walks just 1 in 5 innings, allowing 4 hits and no runs, has been very impressive. That he threw 70% strikes is also impressive as is the fact he gave up no extra base hits.

by bobr on Dec 28, 2011 3:41 PM EST reply actions 1 recs