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Around SBN: The Most Dangerous Division in Sports

What Would It Take to Trade Longoria?

ST. PETERSBURG, FL - SEPTEMBER 28:  Evan Longoria #3 of the Tampa Bay Rays rounds the bases after his game-winning walk off home run in the twelfth inning against the New York Yankees during the game at Tropicana Field on September 28, 2011 in St. Petersburg, Florida.  (Photo by J. Meric/Getty Images)

The issue was raised in the Rays Tank this morning after a new source for rumors on Twitter mentioned something yesterday. My immediate reaction was to laugh uncontrollably because Longoria is without a doubt the best team contract in this sport and arguably all of the major sports. As Jonah Keri pointed out in a piece over at Grantland earlier this month, Fangraphs has dubbed Longoria the best value in baseball for four straight seasons. The latest comments from Dave Cameron really bring it home:

Yes, this is getting old. Even I would love to see someone else at the top of the list. But, the reality is that he’s one of the best players in the game (third in baseball in WAR over the past three calendar years) being paid like a utility infielder. He makes $2 million this year, $4.5 million next year, $6 million the year after that, and then the team options kick in; $7.5, $11, and $11.5 million respectively. If (when) all the options are picked up, the Rays will owe him $40 million over the next five years. He might not be as good as Bautista right now, but the age and salary difference make up for the gap in performance, and so Longoria retains his spot at the top of the list. This contract will eventually run out, and someone will dethrone him as the King Of All Trade Value, but it didn’t happen this year.

Longoria has been paid approximately $4M over the past four seasons and Fangraphs values his production at $117.1M. That would be like you or I going to a garage sale, picking up a box of baseball cards, and pulling a mint condition T-206 Honus Wagner out of the stack.

Simply put, it is tough to imagine any kind of scenario where a player under the friendliest contract in the sport could be part of a blockbuster trade to another team. After all, Longoria's production and price have been a linchpin to the success this team has had over the past four seasons. Other teams are paying $4M for their backup catcher while the Rays are getting 29 times what they have paid out in production for the same price.

The English proverb tells us that, "An idle mind is the devil's workshop," and since we have absolutely nothing else going on related to the Rays this week (or last week, or the week before), let's take a look at what a trade involving Longoria would look like.

Star-divide

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but luckily for us, Sky Kalkman and Victor Wang have helped to qualify trade value. Kalkman constructed a Trade Value Calculator in 2009 to help us frame out net profits from player production. Wang did extensive research and calculated the value of prospects as ranked by Baseball America and John Sickels. Those values are shown in the image below:

Value_medium

Using the financial data and projected WAR value from Baseball Prospectus in Kalkman's calculator, this is how the next five seasons of Evan's career could play out:

Longoria_medium

The $5M figure added on is the value of Type A draft picks per Wang's research as well. Even with the change to the collective bargaining agreement, Longoria would still bring that type of draft pick should he leave via free agency. If you think that the projections are aggressive, consider the fact Longoria's WAR totals (via BPro) over his first four seasons were 4.4, 6.6, 6.9, and 6.7 last season in a season shortened by an oblique injury and hampered with a nerve problem in his foot.

Longoria's contract has been an incredible value so far and if he plays to his projections in the coming years, it will continue to be a bargain for the team. $118M in net value is a lot of value to make up in a trade for any team.

Say, for example, the Nationals wanted to acquire Longoria in a trade. Ryan Zimmerman would surely be part of any deal, but how is he valued in a trade? Using the same inputs as we did for Longoria, Zimmerman's value over the next two seasons is not as rosy.

Zim_medium

That still leaves us with a $91.3M gap in net worth between the two players. Even if we throw in two top ten hitting prospects, that still leaves us with a gap of $18.3M. It takes adding a top ten pitching prospect ($15.9M) to get us nearly equal in terms of net value. On paper, that's Zimmerman, Bryce Harper, Anthony Rendon, and someone like A.J. Cole if he were still with the organization. That package would a middle of the order hitter now as well as two more for up to six seasons each and a projected front-half starting pitcher for one player. Zimmerman alone is being paid 65 percent over the next two seasons what Longoria is under contract for over the next five seasons.

If the Rays are indeed fielding calls about Longoria right now, it is because they're just as bored as we are this month waiting for Scott Boras and his clients to start signing contracts and bring this free agent season to a close.

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Ryan Zimmerman and Bryce Harper would do it!

This topic makes no sense though, why would we ever trade Evan until maybe year 8 or 9 of his deal?

Matt Moore. That is all.

by joeybw on Dec 29, 2011 11:56 AM EST reply actions  

It's just so wild to even contemplate.

Although this is probably a decent thread to mention this mildly depressing fact: this season marks the halfway point of Longo’s deal. After this year, the Rays will only have him under contract for four more.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.

by Steve Slowinski on Dec 29, 2011 12:00 PM EST reply actions  

no no no

Can we please not discuss the contract starting to run out until like the 8th year?

Right now, I’m still in Evan will be here forever mode.

Matt Moore. That is all.

by joeybw on Dec 29, 2011 12:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Thank you

To be honest, instead of discussing a Price deal, maybe we should talk about pulling a Tulo/Braun on Longo and giving him an extension on his extension.

Matt Moore. That is all.

by joeybw on Dec 29, 2011 12:07 PM EST up reply actions  

Things will take off in January

I am actually surprised by the few moves we have made because Friedman loves waiting til January to try filling out the team.

Upton and once again half the bullpen will be FA’s and you know that you might have to trade Shields or Price so please go for it 2010 style. Spend a little more than you would normally want to and don’t try for service time champions. If Cobb looks the best in Spring, put Neimann or Davis in the pen, I actually love either one using all their stuff for 1 or 2 very strong innings. Do not carry Elliot Johnson over Brandon Guyer. Guyer is a great guy off the bench for defense or for a lefty and Elliot is useless. Also don’t shy away from Matt Bush….ok this one might just be me, I really like the dudes arm.

Matt Moore. That is all.

by joeybw on Dec 29, 2011 12:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Such as?

Spout away!

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.

by Steve Slowinski on Dec 29, 2011 1:05 PM EST up reply actions  

How about something that could actually happen, for starters

You don’t trade away someone like Longoria. Those are the pieces you build around. The only way you trade him is for an obscene amount that is so obscene that no team would ever pay. Longoria is untradable…not because of an albatross contract, but for the very opposite reason. No team could ever come close to giving fair value for Longoria without ripping up their entire team in the process, thus negating any reason to do the deal. If we are two years away from Longoria’s free agency, at least the Rays may have some motivation to consider it. But now? It’s just wasting your breath.

There are plenty of other things more worth your time, such as this. Ryan Theriot would be an awesome middle Inf upgrade to Elliot Johnson.

How about an article on Ben Zobrist’s re-emergence? With the disastrous 2010 season, there were questions about one-year wonder and career season and what exactly could be expected from him. His ISO rebounded again over .200, a WAR of 6.6, only 10 players had a higher WAR in all of baseball in 2011.

Another argument/article could be made that, despite the Rays attempts to acquire another bat, the middle of the order for the Rays is already set with Zobrist-Longoria-Joyce, especially against RHP (Joyce’s line vs RHP in 2011: .292/.361/.505/.866). Joyce’s slug pct was top 15 in AL and OPS top 12. The argument could be made that the Rays do not need another middle-of-the-order bat, but the best complementary pieces they can find. An article showing why Luke Scott is the exact type of Rays move Friedman makes and reasons why. An article showing why a Carlos Pena reunion is a good or bad idea. Any of these would be better than an article that honestly is a waste of time. I don’t mean to be pissy, but I don’t see the value in writing about trading away the Rays best player and asset.

by raysfaninminnesota on Dec 29, 2011 3:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Collette promised a Zobrist love fest article like three weeks ago

Don’t hold your breath. OHW!

"It was a little weird seeing Ashley running at me with a closed fist. That was a scary look."-Matt Moore

by CubFanRaysaddict on Dec 29, 2011 4:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Theriot would be an awesome upgrade?

Elliot is better defensively
Elliot is a better baserunner
Elliot is worse with the bat

When you’re talking about a reserve player, you’re talking defense and pinch-running.

I'm not a fanboy, I'm an awesome dude

by Jason Collette on Dec 29, 2011 4:07 PM EST up reply actions  

well the Rays aren't stupid, so there has to be some reason for their interest

Theriot’s got a decent bat vs LHP. Maybe allowing a S-Rod/Theriot middle inf allows Rays to put Zobrist into RF against tough lefties and sitting Joyce. Not saying it’s a great move or the right move…but an article trying to figure out what the Rays would see in Theriot would be better than writing about trading Longoria. And even if you don’t like this one, there are plenty of other ideas I wrote about that would be better than this.

by raysfaninminnesota on Dec 29, 2011 4:13 PM EST up reply actions  

I imagine if they brought Theriot in it would just be as roster depth

he would be in AAA ready for a spot and if he doesn’t make it out of ST and someone else is willing to give him one than we give him away ala Adam Kennedy a few years ago.

by Dbullsfan on Dec 29, 2011 4:15 PM EST up reply actions  

z
Elliot Johnson – you are a waste of a roster spot
by Jason Collette on Aug 16, 2011 10:36 AM PDT on Tampa Bay Rays at Boston Red Sox, Aug 16, 2011 1:05 PM EDT on DRaysBay

Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla

by FreeZorilla on Dec 29, 2011 4:14 PM EST up reply actions  

z
Elliot makes Brendan Harris look rangy
by Jason Collette on Jul 6, 2011 11:03 AM PDT on Gameday Thread for 7/6/11: At least we’re not getting swept by the WORST team in the league on DRaysBay

Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla

by FreeZorilla on Dec 29, 2011 4:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Wasn't that the game where he was tripping over his own 2 feet on a few plays?

Again, he’s still better than Theriot in that role. The Cardinals went out and got Furcal at the deadline because they were so unhappy with Theriot’s work. Theriot went on to play just one more game at SS after Furcal was acquired only got 8 starts over those final 6 weeks anywhere on the team.

I'm not a fanboy, I'm an awesome dude

by Jason Collette on Dec 29, 2011 4:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Elliot has above average range according to the defensive metrics

Theriot used to but no longer does and Harris never did.

Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla

by FreeZorilla on Dec 29, 2011 4:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Also he went to LSU

we only sign players who threaten to go to LSU

"It was a little weird seeing Ashley running at me with a closed fist. That was a scary look."-Matt Moore

by CubFanRaysaddict on Dec 29, 2011 4:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Using single season metrics?

Et tu, FreeZo?

I'm not a fanboy, I'm an awesome dude

by Jason Collette on Dec 29, 2011 4:54 PM EST up reply actions  

No single season SS for defensive metrics!

Didn’t you learn anything from Woody’s crucifixion??

@RealNolenBailey

by Hatfield on Dec 29, 2011 6:24 PM EST up reply actions  

FWIW

in 2 years it won’t be so unthinkable.

by joaker5 on Dec 29, 2011 5:32 PM EST up reply actions  

sure

But maybe this also helps people understand just how awesome his contract could be.

I'm not a fanboy, I'm an awesome dude

by Jason Collette on Dec 29, 2011 1:37 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions  

does anyone know

if Longo has ever outwardly complained about how little he is being paid? if he has i havent heard anything and considering how cheap it is its surprising.

Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.

by James Westfall on Dec 29, 2011 2:51 PM EST up reply actions  

On the contrary,

he has said he was fully aware of what he was doing at the time he signed and thought, and still thinks, it was the right thing to do to get him the security he wanted while still making good money.

Also, keep in mind that the team options run out after 2016 when Longoria will have just turned 31. Assuming he has been as productive as expected, he will still be in line for a big money contract if he wants to go that way. If he has not been productive, it is possible the guaranteed money the Rays committed to will seem like a good deal to him. They might then not pick up one or more of the options, but he will still be young enough to be appealing to teams that will take the risk he returns to form.

by bobr on Dec 30, 2011 12:59 AM EST up reply actions  

Maybe Longoria hit on Stu's niece

Actually, Longoria probably hit on Stu’s niece. But I doubt Stu gets as offended about that kind of thing as Naimoli did.

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Dec 29, 2011 12:51 PM EST reply actions  

That reminds me

I kept thinking Sonny was here because he had certain pictures that Stu didn’t want anyone seeing. That doesn’t seem to be the case so did we actually think Sonny would just wake up one day and become 2008 Sonny again? Dude has been awful ever since his horrible start in the 2008 World Series. I mean, decent RP even 2010 but blah.

Matt Moore. That is all.

by joeybw on Dec 29, 2011 1:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah

I can’t remember who though. Long time ago. Not confirmed, but that was the rumor I heard from several independent sources. I think it may have been Tino Martinez. He also permanently kicked out a beat writer because he had the temerity to use the owner’s private restroom after an interview.

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Dec 29, 2011 9:02 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm still not a huge fan of using WAR and dollars to value a trade but it shows the crazieness of the idea

that being said if the Nats offered Stras, Zimmerman, and Harper I’m pretty sure we’d have to strongly consider even though it wouldn’t be an even “WAR” trade.

by Dbullsfan on Dec 29, 2011 1:13 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

something different to talk about for RFM, Joe Sheehan apparently loves the Rays in 2012

2. B.J. Upton is the next Matt Kemp. The Dodgers’ Kemp combined his experience and raw talent to take a huge step forward at age 26, nearly winning the NL MVP award. Tampa Bay’s Upton has long shown similar skills — he just had his second 20/20 season — but a very high strikeout rate has prevented him from hitting for average and getting on base at high rates. As with Kemp, though, Upton, 27, has years of experience as he reaches his peak, and will take a big step forward next year, cutting his strikeouts, hitting .290 and pushing for the AL MVP award, while getting the Rays to the postseason again.

3. David Price is the next Clayton Kershaw. Like the 2011 Dodgers, the Rays will watch two young stars take big steps forward. Price quietly had a better year in 2011 than he did in his “breakout” 2010, striking out more hitters and walking fewer while carrying the highest workload of his career. Like Kershaw, Price will build on this improvement to be the best starter in his league and win the Cy Young Award.

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/joe_sheehan/12/20/predictions.2012/index.html#ixzz1hwte8J7o

by Dbullsfan on Dec 29, 2011 1:18 PM EST reply actions  

Well, that'd be nice.

From the looks of how the trade market is shaping up for the Rays this offseason, we’re going to need a strong effort from Beej.

by Snarfalicious on Dec 29, 2011 1:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Contract year

If he was ever going to have that breakout year that is talked about before every season, now is the time.

Matt Moore. That is all.

by joeybw on Dec 29, 2011 1:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Joe is a smart guy

Don’t ask him for dining suggestions in NYC after hours, but the man knows his baseball.

I'm not a fanboy, I'm an awesome dude

by Jason Collette on Dec 29, 2011 1:36 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions  

Kalas and Sheff

I saw Todd Kalas at the USF vs Uconn hoops game last night. I yelled “go Rays!” to him and he smiled and gave me the bulls sign. Gary Sheffield was looking all Sheff like I didn’t yell anything at him.

by sinkhole on Dec 29, 2011 1:30 PM EST reply actions  

Ahhh, Todd...

You know what feels like Christmas Day all over again? Todd Kalas on Opening Day.

A woman who knows her sports.

by Bucs-RaysChick on Dec 29, 2011 2:53 PM EST up reply actions  

hmmm how about to the cubs

castro, garza back, byrd, dempster, soriano? we get 2 strikeout pitchers, byrd for cf, castro ss and soriano at dh

by Dr. Drake Ramoray on Dec 29, 2011 1:39 PM EST reply actions  

we dont need garza and why would we want soriano or dempster

Byrd and Castro don’t quite cut it for Longo.

Matt Moore. That is all.

by joeybw on Dec 29, 2011 1:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Most logical thing is a trade with the Marlins...

Featured around Hanley, LoMo, and Yelich (COF or 1B of future).

We could probably take on Hanley’s salary, and he could play SS/3B. LoMo for 1B/DH, and Yelich would instantly be the top hitter in our system. Builds for now and the future. Now would the Marlins do that?

by Snarfalicious on Dec 29, 2011 1:46 PM EST up reply actions  

i bet they would

they want to win now…havent you heard they got a new stadium and new uni’s!!! god that jefery loria is one classy dude.

Ride the tiger...You can see his stripes but you know he's clean.

by James Westfall on Dec 29, 2011 2:42 PM EST up reply actions  

That's a lotta celery

This meme definitely has a shelf life to it

by Jason Collette on Dec 29, 2011 11:31 AM EST upreplyactions

So do you.

BOOM. ROASTED!

by SandalsNoPants on Dec 29, 2011 11:32 AM EST upreply Rec Flag

by sc_monsta1015 on Dec 29, 2011 3:08 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

I get a more "pedestrian" $102.8 million value

5.7, 5.9, 6.1, 6.3, 6.1…..

I realize that the math doesnt work out that way when using Sky’s calculator, but there is usually a premium involved when dealing with a big name like Longoria on top of the true Surplus value, so I would estimate his real world value closer to $150 million or so. And then you get into laughable trades like: The Kansas City Royals trade their entire major league roster for Evan Longoria…and that’s just silly.

But even if you keep it in the $102 million range, the only team that could pull the deal off with prospects, and be willing to pick Longoria up for need at 3B, is the Braves. And the trade would have to look something like: Braves send Julio Teheran, Arodys Vizcaino, Randall Delgado, Andrelton Simmons and Freddie Freeman to the Rays for Evan Longoria. And the last thing in the world the Rays need is more pitching prospects. But if they wanted to be crazy about it and make a deal like this and dump a ton of salary, it would allow them to also trade James Shields and David Price for a catcher, third baseman, left fielder and second baseman. Heck they probably still would win 90 games with a staff of Teheran, Hellickson, Morris, Vizcaino and Delgado. They would only have to score about 3 runs a game. Get it done Mr Friedman!

He’s untradeable. There’s two other players with contracts as cheap as Longoria’s (Braun and Tulowitzki) and with the big extensions they both recently signed, get really really expensive near the tail ends of them.

by backtocali on Dec 29, 2011 2:48 PM EST reply actions  

97 days

Until Opening Day and “trading Longoria” won’t cross our minds again until next offseason.

A woman who knows her sports.

by Bucs-RaysChick on Dec 29, 2011 2:50 PM EST reply actions  

The answer is roofies

Roofie Friedman, roofie Stu, roofie Bud Selig, probably some other guys… honestly I have no idea what official paperwork it takes to make a trade permanent. But roofie everyone involved and then you could trade Even for the proverbial bag of balls.

That’s probably the most likely scenario in which Longo gets moved.

by ChiBurbRaysFan on Dec 29, 2011 3:19 PM EST reply actions  

Yea, that's what makes me laugh

I was just having fun with it on an extremely slow news day

I'm not a fanboy, I'm an awesome dude

by Jason Collette on Dec 29, 2011 4:26 PM EST up reply actions  

I credit ghost of DRB past Jake Larsen; he was all over Twitter asking hard hitting questions

of everyone from Longo to Topkin to the national media. Jake’s take earned the direct denial by Longo

Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla

by FreeZorilla on Dec 29, 2011 6:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Padre fan, trying to even fathom what this trade would have to look like

To SD: Longoria, HJL

To TB: Headley, Rizzo, Grandal, Erlin, Liriano, Sampson

Never mind, this is ridiculous.

by walnut falcons on Dec 29, 2011 4:38 PM EST reply actions  

Throw in Petco

and you got your self a god d*mn deal

"It was a little weird seeing Ashley running at me with a closed fist. That was a scary look."-Matt Moore

by CubFanRaysaddict on Dec 29, 2011 4:40 PM EST up reply actions  

I like how he has to get Hak-ju Lee *and* Longoria

Byrnes: “Well, Andrew, I really like your proposed deal that would send us this Longoria kid, and I hear he’s pretty good, but I don’t know… I just have to have something else to sweeten the pot some.”

by AndrewTorrez on Dec 29, 2011 4:52 PM EST up reply actions  

...

(Holds phone away from mouth, laughs with colleagues at the very notion, and puts back on his poker face as the phone returns to his mouth)

"It was a little weird seeing Ashley running at me with a closed fist. That was a scary look."-Matt Moore

by CubFanRaysaddict on Dec 29, 2011 4:58 PM EST up reply actions  

"Now Andrew, this is CHASE Headley you're getting, don't let Lee get in the way of this deal"

"It was a little weird seeing Ashley running at me with a closed fist. That was a scary look."-Matt Moore

by CubFanRaysaddict on Dec 29, 2011 5:00 PM EST up reply actions  

You want Matt Moore as well?

Maddon's Mission
Make you want to kill him, then make you want to love him. Sly.

by Jonah Keri on Jun 19, 2010 10:31 PM EDT

by Doug09 on Dec 29, 2011 4:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Somehow that was sneaky

I thought that was all offered for Lee. Yeah, Longo isn’t going anywhere just because someone who got lucky predicting the Pujols signing said he wanted out. Not like the Padres spend money either if that was actually the reason…

Matt Moore. That is all.

by joeybw on Dec 29, 2011 5:09 PM EST up reply actions  

sigh

A lot of people around here need to get over the boner they have for insulting me in 80% of their posts.

Matt Moore. That is all.

by joeybw on Dec 29, 2011 5:22 PM EST up reply actions  

It is all in good fun.

If I actually hated your posting so much, I would make an effort to not mention it.

by mr. maniac on Dec 29, 2011 6:36 PM EST up reply actions  

And to think OTTOTDs got banished and not this unwelcoming tool.

What could be better than Dan Johnson
hitting .108
Let's trade Reddick for Heyward!

by QW on Sep 28, 2011 9:47 PM CDT

by SandalsNoPants on Dec 29, 2011 5:23 PM EST up reply actions  

let's not pretend like I said this was fair, or even favored the Rays

The Padres have one of the top 3 systems in baseball. I started rattling off names from their top 10 until I had to stop myself because it seemed insane. But, again, it is insane. This kind of deal can’t happen because the Rays need to get fair value, when fair value is impossible to establish, and any asking price they would throw out and maybe (possibly) even think about taking would be so insanely high than no team would ever do it.

Also, the Lee thing came from the idea I kept hearing floated around about a Rizzo/HJL swap making sense for both teams. I don’t know whether it is or not, It’s just been discussed.

But, if it would keep from offending you and causing you to be an internet bully, remove HJL from the deal and add Gyorko, Maybin, Luebke, Blanks, Alonso, Wieland, Tate and Hedges. Please, someone, can I go back and edit my post to look like this? I can’t handle being called stupid on an internet message board.

by walnut falcons on Dec 29, 2011 5:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Evan will be a Ray for another 5 years... I have to say at least or I will make myself sad

We just want Rizzo from you guys, If guys Blanks and/or Gregerson come up, they are welcome here.

Matt Moore. That is all.

by joeybw on Dec 29, 2011 5:36 PM EST up reply actions  

The mods on this site don't tolerate the immature behavior that can be seen in mr. maniac's post.

I wouldn’t expect him to post for another 24 hours.

What could be better than Dan Johnson
hitting .108
Let's trade Reddick for Heyward!

by QW on Sep 28, 2011 9:47 PM CDT

by SandalsNoPants on Dec 29, 2011 5:41 PM EST up reply actions  

First of all, it would have helped if you mentioned that.

All of what has been discussed so far is purely hypothetical. No one is saying anythinbg like this will happen, and the rumor has been shot down.

Adding Hak-Ju Lee in the deal only hinted that you thought something along the lines of your proposed trade was plausible. After all, if it was incredibly insane to suggest the amoutn of talent to get Longoria, why would you bring Hak-Ju Lee into the deal?

I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt on this. Sorry if my post sounded harsh (it was). It just seems incredibly insane to list the players you did and not include a “….” at the end of it.

by mr. maniac on Dec 29, 2011 6:29 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't mean to say the amount of talent was insane for Longoria

It’s more an issue of I don’t think any team would give up that much talent for any single player. Yet, the Rays would need that much talent in return to even entertain the idea.

Also, I wanted to try to throw out something that looked more like “quantity over quality”, as opposed to the Nats deals I saw earlier (Harper and Stras). The padres don’t have anyone on that level, so any deal from them would have to just throw an absolute boatload of names their way.

And I still don’t think the return I originally posted was as offensive as you guys make it out to be. Petco park has done everything it can to make Chase Headley look like a middling offensive player, but his career OPS away from Petco is above .800. He doesn’t have elite power, but he is a very good player. Outside of that, you have completely gutted the top 10 prospects from a consensus top 5 farm system. I don’t know what more you guys would expect after a solid replacement for Longo and five top 100 prospects.

I tried to make it fair from a SD point of view. You don’t think it was even close to fair from a TB point of view, and that’s fine. But let’s chill out with the hyperbole, as there have been worse trade proposals in this thread alone (Castro, Garza, Byrd, Soriano, Dempster).

by walnut falcons on Dec 29, 2011 7:18 PM EST up reply actions  

So you are saying that that is a fair trade?

It still doesn’t count it, going by the value shown. Why the Rays would take a DISCOUNT on Longoria is beyond me.

by mr. maniac on Dec 29, 2011 7:42 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm not saying I think that it's fair

and it could very easily be light. But it’s not light-years away as your original comment would suggest.

What would you need to do to that trade to make it even close to fair? Or rather, remove it from it’s place of honor as the “stupidest post ever on this blog”?

Remove Lee? Add two of your favorite between Gyorko, Alonso, Luebke, Maybin, Blanks, Wieland, Kelly, Tate? Remove Lee AND add some combination of those guys?

by walnut falcons on Dec 29, 2011 8:10 PM EST up reply actions  

How about this (as fair value).

Longoria for the Padres top 10 prospects…. and more. That is fairly reasonable, going by the research. It might take more from the Padres.

An elite prospect like harper really means a lot.

by mr. maniac on Dec 29, 2011 9:07 PM EST up reply actions  

In all seriousness, I think we should be friendlier to fans of other teams when they post on here.

He wasn’t being a dick, and your reactions have been really demeaning. As a visitor on other sites, I think DRB should be above silly harassment of visiting members. It makes the site look crappy. You’re bringing it down to the level of OTM and PSA (most of PSa is fine, but a few guys there are just dicks to outsiders).

What could be better than Dan Johnson
hitting .108
Let's trade Reddick for Heyward!

by QW on Sep 28, 2011 9:47 PM CDT

by SandalsNoPants on Dec 29, 2011 9:20 PM EST up reply actions  

DRB users have always been dicks ever since I've been reading.

When RJ was around, it was worse because he was a dick too.

No matter how much they are hyped, my teams always find a way to disappoint.

by thedudeofdudes on Dec 29, 2011 9:24 PM EST up reply actions  

I personally don't really care

I’ve read DRB for a long time. The Rays have been my favorite AL team since I caught a game at the trop in 2008 against Boston. The Padres contribution to SB nation is absolutely pathetic, so I take what I can get.

I haven’t cared about super cool dudes being a jerk to me on the internet since I was 16, so he can say whatever he wants. He was clearly just trying to be antagonistic, as he really hasn’t had anything to contribute to the discussion except “you’re dumb” and “give us all your prospects lol”

But, yeah, this definitely isn’t a warm and inviting environment.

by walnut falcons on Dec 29, 2011 9:40 PM EST up reply actions  

"give us all your prospects lol"

I think I defended my reasoning well enough. The top 8-10 prospects, going by the calculations by Victor Wang, are about worth Longoria’s value, if we are going by “fair value”.

Here are what I would peg their values at:
Rizzo: 18 million
Alonso: 17 million
Liriano: 15 million
Grandal: 13 million
Gyorko: 13 million
Erlin: 13 million
Wieland: 12 million
Sampson: 12 million (95)
Kelly: 8 million
Spangenburg: 6 million

Those are the (arguably) top 10. That equals 109 million in surplus value. If you want to argue that I am being too conservative, then we will call it even with Longo’s 118.2 million.

Fair enough?

by mr. maniac on Dec 29, 2011 10:26 PM EST up reply actions  

Hey, I included Headley in the trade

Headley has created a surplus of about 35 million since getting to the majors!

And honestly, I personally don’t really buy into trying to predict surplus value for prospects. It’s interesting, and I respect the research, but I don’t put a lot of value in it. If all of those prospects generate that amount of surplus value (I’ll even given you a standard deviation of 5 million) then I will owe you one gigantic apology.

Feel free to scoff and call me a philistine or joke about how I probably like wins and batting average or whatever.

by walnut falcons on Dec 30, 2011 12:23 AM EST up reply actions  

I will never scoff or insult someone if they use sound reasoning.

If you use other stats, then fine. However, you have to try to place a certain value on players, using whatever measures you prefer. It appears that you value prospects extremely more than I do.

As far as Headley goes, it appears to me that he has two years of control left (correct me if I am wrong). I would expect those years to cost a combined 8-10 million. If he produces at a 3 WAR clip for the next two years, that would give him a surplus value of about 14 million. So, in theory, you could just replace one of the prospects with him.

by mr. maniac on Dec 30, 2011 12:33 AM EST up reply actions  

this is where I don't think that using the surplus value makes a lot of sense

there is no way that one of the top farm systems in baseball can’t produce a “equal” deal without giving up 20 guys, I don’t care how good Longoria’s contract is, I won’t believe the Rays wouldn’t be better off adding even the Padres top 4 or 5 guys. Or for the Marlins a deal involving Stanton, HanRam, and Morrison, there is no way that having only Longoria would make us a better team than those 3 guys.

by Dbullsfan on Dec 30, 2011 9:14 AM EST up reply actions  

Possibly,

but it is more than value on the field. Over the next 3 years, Hanley is owed $46.5 million. Longoria is owed $18 million if the option is picked up in 2014, and still will have 2 years of club options ($22.5 million). That is an extra $28.5 million the Rays have to pay players.

So it is not just a question of whether Hanley, Stanton and Morrison are worth more wins on the field than Longoria alone. It is also a question of who else the Rays can afford to complement Longoria for the next 3 years, or who else would they have to replace to stay within budget. For example, would the 3 Marlins plus Cobb, Beckham, A. Torres, Ruggiano and Guyer be more valuable on the field than Longoria, Price, Shields, Joyce and Upton? (I am not making actual calculations of cost; it is the general point I am considering.)

What makes his contract so valuable is not just the surplus value he returns for it, but what else it allows the Rays to do with their roster.

by bobr on Dec 30, 2011 10:11 AM EST up reply actions  

Thanks for responding for me.

Dbullsfan, I would also like to mention that this is “fair value”. I’m not sure how much the marker would give to Longoria, but I imagine that, to trade their superstar, the Rays would want more than fair value.

by mr. maniac on Dec 30, 2011 10:52 AM EST up reply actions  

granite we have been able make the playoffs lately but in a bubble

wouldn’t a team with the Hanley, LoMo, Stanton be more competitive leading to assumed higher attendance and a higher potential playoff birth which would bring in more money allowing the team to spend more keeping other guys around them besides Ruggiano types. Now there is a huge difference in the Cubs offer from above with high ridiculous contracts but I think Ramirez has a pretty decent deal for the next 2 years and LoMo and Stanton are still cheap I believe.

by Dbullsfan on Dec 30, 2011 8:40 PM EST up reply actions  

wait...

granite?

What could be better than Dan Johnson
hitting .108
Let's trade Reddick for Heyward!

by QW on Sep 28, 2011 9:47 PM CDT

by SandalsNoPants on Dec 30, 2011 10:05 PM EST up reply actions  

I have to work on that.

And, in all seriousness, I will.

So, my apologies to walnut falcons.

by mr. maniac on Dec 29, 2011 9:59 PM EST up reply actions  

lol
I apologize to @Evan3Longoria and #Rays fans about the false rumor. I was told by a Rays source that he was unhappy with the situation in Tampa Bay. I now know to not trust that person when it comes to baseball talk. Thanks.

I'm not a fanboy, I'm an awesome dude

by Jason Collette on Dec 29, 2011 5:15 PM EST reply actions  

His newest rumor is that we are the front runner for Madson

When is he going to get around to making us the front runner for Fielder already?

Matt Moore. That is all.

by joeybw on Dec 29, 2011 5:16 PM EST up reply actions  

"the situation"

What could be better than Dan Johnson
hitting .108
Let's trade Reddick for Heyward!

by QW on Sep 28, 2011 9:47 PM CDT

by SandalsNoPants on Dec 29, 2011 5:24 PM EST up reply actions  

He's the baseball version of @incarceratedbob

Maddon's Mission
Make you want to kill him, then make you want to love him. Sly.

by Jonah Keri on Jun 19, 2010 10:31 PM EDT

by Doug09 on Dec 29, 2011 7:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Wait what
Center thinks Anthony Rizzo will be traded “in the next week or two.” He predicts Rizzo will be sent to the Rays, who will then flip Rizzo to the Cubs, where he is “still coveted” by (former Padres executives) Jed Hoyer and Jason McLeod.

Starts off nice and then makes no sense

Matt Moore. That is all.

by joeybw on Dec 29, 2011 6:47 PM EST reply actions  

hahaha

I’m surprised he didn’t mention “in a trade for James Shields.”

What could be better than Dan Johnson
hitting .108
Let's trade Reddick for Heyward!

by QW on Sep 28, 2011 9:47 PM CDT

by SandalsNoPants on Dec 29, 2011 6:50 PM EST up reply actions  

on the other hand

the last trade with the Cubs worked out pretty well

by AndrewTorrez on Dec 29, 2011 6:52 PM EST up reply actions  

I like Soto but he has fallen off a lot since his rookie year

No Castro jokes please, what would they even give us for Rizzo? And what are we giving up for Rizzo, just to trade him? And I thought I said dumb things, no way we flip him if we get him.

Matt Moore. That is all.

by joeybw on Dec 29, 2011 6:55 PM EST up reply actions  

I was just kidding

obviously the Rays aren’t going to flip Rizzo, unless it’s to the Royals for Wil Myers or something

by AndrewTorrez on Dec 29, 2011 7:03 PM EST up reply actions  

I know you were

I’m just confused, I assume this is Davis for Rizzo so we get our man and then we trade him right away? Yeah, I think this guy is a little off.

Matt Moore. That is all.

by joeybw on Dec 29, 2011 7:06 PM EST up reply actions  

The Rizzo for Davis rumor scares the hell out of me

from a SD pov. Nothing about his peripherals scream “get me out of the AL East and I’m going to be so good dude, for real!”

I’d prefer they deal him for another prospect.

by walnut falcons on Dec 29, 2011 7:23 PM EST up reply actions  

What would be the least amount from the Rays you would accept?

What do you think would be a reasonably fair swap?

What could be better than Dan Johnson
hitting .108
Let's trade Reddick for Heyward!

by QW on Sep 28, 2011 9:47 PM CDT

by SandalsNoPants on Dec 29, 2011 7:25 PM EST up reply actions  

No idea, really

The Padres farm doesn’t have much in the way of MI prospects, which is what makes Lee appealing to us. But you guys don’t have SS really figured out long-term either, so that would maybe be a case of taking from a position of need to fill a less valuable position of need.

by walnut falcons on Dec 29, 2011 7:37 PM EST up reply actions  

What do you think of Beckham?

What could be better than Dan Johnson
hitting .108
Let's trade Reddick for Heyward!

by QW on Sep 28, 2011 9:47 PM CDT

by SandalsNoPants on Dec 29, 2011 7:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, that kind of makes Beckham almost a throw in, doesn't it?

What could be better than Dan Johnson
hitting .108
Let's trade Reddick for Heyward!

by QW on Sep 28, 2011 9:47 PM CDT

by SandalsNoPants on Dec 29, 2011 7:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Yup.

Beckham shouldn’t have too much value. Now, if he was a Yankee prospect, then……

by mr. maniac on Dec 29, 2011 7:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Torres/Beckham

would definitely make Bex a throw in. I wouldn’t throw a fit if we did Rizzo for Torres straight up. Although I would like to get more than one guy, if only to keep the Adrian Gonzalez trade strings long and supple.

by walnut falcons on Dec 29, 2011 8:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Torres and Matt Bush

these high school lacrosse teams over in east county are getting out of control again.

by walnut falcons on Dec 29, 2011 8:59 PM EST up reply actions  

What about Cobb + Fleming?

(joke it’s an overpay)

My d***ie is leaking!

by SRQman on Dec 30, 2011 12:12 AM EST up reply actions  

I hear Bowden needs reliable sources.

I suggest you give him a call and recommed yourself.

by mr. maniac on Dec 30, 2011 12:34 AM EST up reply actions  

This is a joke, mr. maniac

What could be better than Dan Johnson
hitting .108
Let's trade Reddick for Heyward!

by QW on Sep 28, 2011 9:47 PM CDT

by SandalsNoPants on Dec 29, 2011 6:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Obviously an epic package

But Longoria is to the Rays like Pujols was to the Cards, Votto to the Red, etc, etc, etc.

ESPN, Mike Francesa, NY Post, NY Daily News, Fox Sports = Propaganda

Feel free to add me on Twitter;
https://twitter.com/#!/BlueChill1123

by BlueChill on Dec 30, 2011 7:36 PM EST reply actions  

Like Votto to the Reds?

Seriously?

What could be better than Dan Johnson
hitting .108
Let's trade Reddick for Heyward!

by QW on Sep 28, 2011 9:47 PM CDT

by SandalsNoPants on Dec 30, 2011 8:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Well ok who do you consider the star player that most Reds fans cheer on.

Joey Votto was the one that popped in my head

ESPN, Mike Francesa, NY Post, NY Daily News, Fox Sports = Propaganda

Feel free to add me on Twitter;
https://twitter.com/#!/BlueChill1123

by BlueChill on Dec 30, 2011 11:02 PM EST up reply actions  

That seems accurate, but when making analogies to Longoria, I don't think the Reds are a good example.

I think Longoria is much more to the Rays than Votto is to the Reds.

What could be better than Dan Johnson
hitting .108
Let's trade Reddick for Heyward!

by QW on Sep 28, 2011 9:47 PM CDT

by SandalsNoPants on Dec 30, 2011 11:18 PM EST up reply actions  

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