Appreciating Ben Zobrist
by jcmitchell on Dec 30, 2011 10:00 AM EST
in Features & Analysis
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PrintMost fans will relish in the fact that they have one of the games top 10 position players on their respected team. They will talk about that player as if he were the best player in the game, debating it without hesitation.
Rays fans already have one of the consistently best players in the game in Evan Longoria to back the fans up in this debate. The Angels just spent upwards of $260M to land one in Albert Pujols so Angels' fans can join the debate. The Tigers fans have Miguel Cabrera. The Rockies fans have Troy Tulowitzki. The Reds fans have Joey Votto. You get the point.
But, the one guy who rarely, if ever, seems to make the argument for best player in the game also plays for the Rays and his name is Ben Zobrist.
Zobrist did not come with high praise or star potential already attached to his name. He was a 6th round draft pick by the Houston Astros who was later dealt to the Rays as a weak hitting shortstop with patience for Aubrey Huff. He did not play for a big college or earn top prospect status while in the minors. He was, and still is, a laid back kid who happens to play for the Rays and does not smoke, drink, or do drugs.
Simply put, Zobrist has never been in the spotlight and has never dove head first trying claim his spot in the limelight. That is not who Zobrist is but he does deserve to be there.
In 2009 Zobrist lead the Majors in fWAR with 8.7 and finished second in the American League with 7.1 rWAR, hitting .297/.405/.543 with 27 homeruns, 17 stolen bases, and a +22.8 UZR. Did it earn him the respect he deserved? I didn't think so. He finished 8th in MVP voting and made an All-Star appearance but he deserved much more.
2010 came and Zobrist only hit .238/.346/.353 with only 10 homeruns and 24 stolen bases. People started writing his 2009 season off as a fluke and calling his 2010 performance a let down. While it was no 2009 season he still hit 3% better than the league average and posted a +11.2 UZR and was worth 3.9 fWAR and 3.1 rWAR. If that is a let down season then I'll take it every time. His BABIP dropped from .326 to .273 that season.
2011 came and expectations were tempered a bit for Zobrist. If he could simply repeat his near 4 win performance from 2010 I would have been very happy. Zobrist easily exceeded those expectations hitting .269/.353/.469 with 20 homeruns and 19 stolen bases, good for a 131 wRC+, and posted a stellar +10.2 UZR. Zobrist was worth 6.6 fWAR and 5.1 rWAR. Zobrist's BABIP came back up to .310 this year.
Zobrist does everything well since becoming a regular player in 2009. He has put up the third highest fWAR total in the entire game, just below teammate Evan Longoria and new Angels' first baseman Albert Pujols. His +44.1 UZR over the past three seasons is the third highest mark in the game. His 9.0 BsR is 17th best in the game. And his 128 wRC+ is bested by only Chase Utley and Robinson Cano at the keystone position.
Zobrist has proven his worth over the past three seasons and it is time Rays fans started throwing his name into the argument of best position player in the game without hesitation.
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Best player discussions should be a group of 4-5 players...I can't put him in that group unless we're talking 2009 Zobrist.
He’s damn good, he’s damn undervalued outside (and sometimes inside) this market, but that concluding sentence is too strong for my liking.
I'm not a fanboy, I'm an awesome dude
by Jason Collette on Dec 30, 2011 10:14 AM EST reply actions
I can understand that.
Maybe I am alone in that regard but I cannot overlook what he done over that three year span and not include him. He does everything well except maybe hit for AVG.
My issue
Is that we then have to say this team has two of the best ten position players in baseball. I really enjoy what Zobrist does, but there’s a line between what those two guys are.
I'm not a fanboy, I'm an awesome dude
by Jason Collette on Dec 30, 2011 10:27 AM EST up reply actions
Eh, I dunno.
I was going to agree with you, but I’m finding stuff like this hard to overlook.
Past three years:
Longo: 136 wRC+, 40 UZR, 8 Bsr
Zobrist: 128 wRC+, 44 UZR, 9 Bsr
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.
Follow @steveslow
by Steve Slowinski on Dec 30, 2011 10:33 AM EST up reply actions
That's part of my argument.
Some of why Zobrist doesn’t get the attention he deserves is becasue of the name attached to the stats. If Pedroia’s name was in place of Zobrist’s there it, sadly, wouldn’t be a discussion.
Yeah, the more I'm looking into it, I think you can definitely slap the Top 10 tag on Zo.
There’s really little argument against it. He’s criminally underrated on defense by bWAR (e.g. had him as a -2 at second this season), but it still rates him as a Top 15 player over the last three seasons.
The only real difference between Longo and Zobrist is that Longoria is younger and therefore has even more offensive upside. For that, Longo belongs in the Top 1-5 conversation, but Zobrist definitely should still slot in the top 10 right now. Heck, the Fan projections put him at #10 right now.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.
Follow @steveslow
by Steve Slowinski on Dec 30, 2011 11:15 AM EST up reply actions
See..
I’d take him over Kinsler who is a bad defender and a product of his home park
I'm not a fanboy, I'm an awesome dude
by Jason Collette on Dec 30, 2011 11:24 AM EST up reply actions
That's visual bias for me, I guess. I've seen too many of his bad throws
His FRAA scores at BPro are 13.3, 5.7, & 8.7 so I’m definitely selling him short.
Then again, Zobrist is 7.9, 1.8, and -5.7 so who knows.
I'm not a fanboy, I'm an awesome dude
by Jason Collette on Dec 30, 2011 12:12 PM EST up reply actions
Wow.
That’s almost the exact same production from 2011. Looks like the fans just copied and pasted it. I’ll gladly take it, though!
One of the best?
Probably not. He’s good at everything but great at nothing. However, he certainly one of the most valuable players in the league. Name another player like Zobrist that does everything as well as he does. All in one package. Sure there are some players that are great at one thing but they can lack in other areas. Zobrist doesn’t really have a particular weakness. That’s what makes him so valuable.
If he is one of the most valuable is he not also one of the best?
I agree with everything you said and that is why I think he is one of the best. I would also say he is great at defense.
GO RAYS!
What could be better than Dan Johnson
hitting .108
Let's trade Reddick for Heyward!
by QW on Sep 28, 2011 9:47 PM CDT
by SandalsNoPants on Dec 30, 2011 12:15 PM EST up reply actions
Zobrist's defense is criminally underrated
he wasn’t even nominated for a Gold Glove. This means that the consensus of baseball managers is that Robinson Cano is better defensively at second base than Ben Zobrist. This, in turn, means that the consensus of baseball managers is an idiot.
by AndrewTorrez on Dec 30, 2011 11:06 AM EST up reply actions
Split time hurts nomination
Zobrist splitting time between RF and 2nd dilutes his apparent value amongst voters. Besides, SRod play at second at times overshadows Zobrist. I’d take both defensively over Cano.
He logged over 1000 innings at 2b. That should be enough.
What could be better than Dan Johnson
hitting .108
Let's trade Reddick for Heyward!
by QW on Sep 28, 2011 9:47 PM CDT
by SandalsNoPants on Dec 30, 2011 12:42 PM EST up reply actions
not just 'qualify'
Zobrist played 131 of 156 games at 2B last season. He’s a second baseman.
by AndrewTorrez on Dec 30, 2011 1:14 PM EST up reply actions
Agreed
I’m just saying that the perception outside Tampa Bay is that Zobrist platoons between positions. More so in 2009 and 2010, granted than 2011. Maybe the bias will subside if Zobrist pulls another 131 games at 2nd in 2012 and he’ll get some love for the Golden Glove.
Rafael Palmeiro
That is all.
What could be better than Dan Johnson
hitting .108
Let's trade Reddick for Heyward!
by QW on Sep 28, 2011 9:47 PM CDT
by SandalsNoPants on Dec 30, 2011 5:10 PM EST up reply actions
The subtitle of this piece could be And Doubting fWAR
I love me some Zobrist, but this would make a very compelling case for people who think UZR and fWAR are off. Pujols, Longoria, Zobrist – that top 3 is hard to defend, sabermetric inclination or not.
Here’s a statistic where he finishes 3rd since 2009 that is mostly free of mathematical controversy – he’s behind only Fielder and Bautista in non-intentional walks.
That's Montgomery Clift, honey
Didn't even notice that when looking at the numbers.
That’s some good company and shows how patient he is.
My point is that if someone else’s name was in front of Zobrist’s stats they would probably be in the discussion of best position players in the game.
Consistency is the issue
If he goes on the next two years and performs at 2011 levels, then the case is made, but if we see 2010 zobrist in 2012, then he lacks the consistency to be called a best player. 4 WAR is a very good player. It is my understanding that all-star players are consistently >6 WAR, both f and r.
by playjoyce on Dec 30, 2011 11:17 AM EST via mobile reply actions
I would agree with this.
If he can replicate 2011 or 2009 then I say he proves he belongs in the discussion. If he falls to 2010 standards then I gladly drop my stance. As Rays fans let’s pray he at least hits his 2011 line.
Wasn't 2010 due to injury?
Or no?
What could be better than Dan Johnson
hitting .108
Let's trade Reddick for Heyward!
by QW on Sep 28, 2011 9:47 PM CDT
by SandalsNoPants on Dec 30, 2011 11:40 AM EST up reply actions
Yes. One or two more years at 2011 levels and he should be considered as one of the best players at his position in the game.
What may have hurt him in the past too was his utility stigma. IMO he has to stay at 2nd base this season to build on this idea.
by playjoyce on Dec 30, 2011 11:46 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Not sure.
He hasn’t spent a day on the DL since 2008. He did miss 6 games due to a lower back strain in 2010, though. Not sure if it was lingering.
He had a upper back neck issue that I speculated about in 2010 after he left a game against Det
Int he Spring of 2011 he mentioned that in interviews, syaing it affected his swing.
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
by FreeZorilla on Dec 30, 2011 11:49 AM EST up reply actions
If I may humble brag...
Freezo is correct. When I spoke to Ben he said injury forced him to change his swing and he spent the rest of the year trying to get it back to normal.
www.espn1040.com, www.theprocessreport.com, www.bloombergsports.com Twitter @trancel
by Tommy Rancel on Dec 30, 2011 1:51 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Add one more bat in the Rays line-up and Zobrist's numbers will have show even more importance.
The walks will produce more runs scored, he may have less pressure on him in certain hitting situations, and he may see better pitches to hit and be more disciplined at the plate.
An impact bat will make Zobrist and the rest of the order much more consistent at scoring runs, IMO.
that bat could already be on the team
Matt Joyce, at least vs RHP was that guy this past year. A lineup of Jennings-Upton-Zobrist-Longoria-Joyce is a pretty solid 1-5 in order. What rays need is more quality depth. Luke Scott, if healthy at DH. perhaps Pena at 1B, or rizzo or Trumbo. Adding Scott and trumbo could be the types of moves the rays need.
by raysfaninminnesota on Dec 30, 2011 3:45 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Joyce is only that guy if he can come close to duplicating his numbers against LH'ed pitchers.
And I am far from convinced that he can or that the Rays are willing to risk that either. After all, the Rays faced 50 LH’ed starters last season and Joyce only started 15 of those games. That’s believing in him only about 30% of the time.
It appears at this time, the Rays will end up bringing in some sort of platoon bats for both 1st base and DH, to hedge their bets at both positions. And Joyce will probably be a part of that system(along with playing plenty of RF.
Three year span? Throw those '10 numbers in the mix and you'll have a hard time making that case.
Zobrist needs to back up the first half of ’11 with a good season this year. Frankly he worries me.
follow me on twitter @sternfan10
OT: Is Al Yellon a big baby?
Looking for honest opinions. I criticized his Top 10 Hitting Pitchers of All Time methodology (he only used OPS for pitchers who pitched in at least 80% of their games played), and he threw a fit. Also, can’t seem to handle being objective on LaHair when comparing his possible future success to Andy Sonnanstine’s.
What could be better than Dan Johnson
hitting .108
Let's trade Reddick for Heyward!
by QW on Sep 28, 2011 9:47 PM CDT
by SandalsNoPants on Dec 30, 2011 11:54 AM EST reply actions
Yes
"It was a little weird seeing Ashley running at me with a closed fist. That was a scary look."-Matt Moore
by CubFanRaysaddict on Dec 30, 2011 6:32 PM EST up reply actions
By the way guys...
Zobrist is a monster away from Tropicana Field.
11 HR/60 RBI/.311 BA/.372 OBP/.526 SLG/.897 OPS
Tack on 15 stolen bases. If Tropicana doesn’t effect his stats as bad as they did in 2011, he’ll hit like he did in 2009.
What's odd about BJ, his home and away flip flopped from the previous year
follow me on twitter @sternfan10
I agree that Zobrist should be considered a top 10 position player
He is definitely the best UTI type offensively and there has to be value in being able to play him anywhere on the diamond. Didn’t he play everywhere in 2010 except 3rd, P and C? He probably could have played 3rd but we know why he didn’t. Great defense, SB threat, good power, switch hitter and gets on base. Definitely underrated.
Him or hurts him.
From a national perspective, moving around may mean jack of all trades master of none.
by playjoyce on Dec 30, 2011 1:56 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I love Zobrist...
Every team needs a true professional. He’s humble, he’s easy to root for, and he’s a pretty damn good player.
But does loving Jesus make him easier to root for?
I’m just glad he’s not polarizing like Tebow, but I wonder if he ever starting getting national recognition for his greatness.
What could be better than Dan Johnson
hitting .108
Let's trade Reddick for Heyward!
by QW on Sep 28, 2011 9:47 PM CDT
by SandalsNoPants on Dec 30, 2011 7:54 PM EST up reply actions
for being fundamentalist
Zobrist is the least proselytizing Christian I know. Did you know, for example, that he has “testimony cards?” You have to ask him for one; he doesn’t just hand them out. And also, you can talk to him for more than 30 seconds without him mentioning Jesus.
Zobrist is very much the anti-Tebow. I suspect it’s because he takes Matthew 6:5-7 seriously.
by AndrewTorrez on Dec 30, 2011 8:24 PM EST up reply actions
biblegateway is your friend
5And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words.
by AndrewTorrez on Dec 30, 2011 8:33 PM EST up reply actions
That's an awesomely amazing verse...
It’s how it should be.
by Snarfalicious on Dec 30, 2011 8:40 PM EST up reply actions
Yes, Zobrist does it the right way.
I like how Tebow stands up for what he beleives, but he sorta shoves it in your face.
interesting
Some friends got me a signed Zo baseball and it came with a bible verse on it
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
by FreeZorilla on Dec 31, 2011 12:49 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
Zobrist and Gross would have Bible study groups and they never pressured anyone to go.
If someone asked to join they would freely let them but they never beat it over anyone’s head.
His defensive flexibility doesn't hurt him...
It helps him. At least it helps him when actual intelligent people discuss the best players in the game. Anyway, you guys remember back in late 08, early 09 when some people thought he took steroids? Seems laughable right now.
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