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The Casey Kotchman Conundrum

It was never part of the master plan to give Casey Kotchman 20+ plate appearances (PAs) before Easter. When the Rays signed him to a minor league deal, the intention was most likely to give the Rays a veteran backup and to give Triple-A Durham a quality first baseman. But, things -- as they are wont to do -- happened.

Evan Longoria's oblique exploded, Manny Ramirez went on the lam, and then Johnny Damon's finger fell off and Dan Johnson had a pitch thrown clear through him. The result: Kotchman has seen some consistent playing time.

Two camps have developed: (1) the Kotch-is-Crap Crew and (2) the Dan-Jo-Must-Go Co-Op. I exist as the odd refugee betwixt these two encampments -- neither vehemently for or against Casy Kotchman. Lets' explore why.

Star-divide

Defense, Defense, Defense
The Rays have been a team long-predicated around the continued market inefficiency of strong defenders. Continued? Yes, continued. The inefficiency remains largely unexplored because the world of defensive metrics remains mostly unfinished. As awesome as UZR (ultimate zone rating) and FSR (the fan scouting report) may be, they still rely on either the weight of reams and reams of data to become effective or the weight of fans' whims and fancies.

If and when Field F/X comes to save the day, fielding data will always be a bit nebulous -- subject to the inconsistency of statistics or the bias of scouts. As such, fans and GMs alike will undervalue great defenders here and there.

All this to say: Casy Kotchman is a good defender. Fortunately, we have the necessary data to definitively say, "Yon first-bagger hath a glove of majesty." Which, in general, doesn't matter much to us. Yeah, he's a great first baseman -- so what? It's like being the strongest man on the math team; you still can't pry open your Spongebob lunch box without help from the teacher.

Well, not so. If UZR can be trusted, then Kotchman is not just, hey, an alright kinda fielder -- he is much better. UZR says, "Fielder, please! Mr. Kotch is fieldin' son of gun."

Behold: Kotchman saves an average of 8.6 runs defensively in a full year. In spring training, we saw shades of that -- a first basemen who dared being more than a large target, but one who deftly threw out runners and exhibited un-first-baseman-like talents.

The Average Offender
Casey Kotchman's offense will likely be normal, average, unspectacular, or even bad. His bat has known only one above average, full season. We must accept that. Last night's offensive outburst (2 for 4 with a well-tagged double and single) was a taste of the cherry on top, not the vanilla underneath.

For his career, Kotch's offense has been 9% worse than league average (according to weighted runs created plus -- or wRC+). If we expect he regresses from last year's bad luck (a low batting average on balls in play -- or BABIP) and if we expect he recovers from playing in the cavernous Petco Park, then we can feel comfortable believing Kotchman will be a little less than league average. If he walks a bit more, then maybe he's league average.

No homer, no triples, a few doubles, but mostly singles. Don't expect much more.

The Kotchman Cocktail
If we put together his defense (a plus) and the offense (a minus), then we only need to consider one more thing: Context.

Evan Longoria is injured, likely out until the month's end. The Rays have Felipe Lopez (an average hitter, an average fielder, and flexible positionally), Sean Rodriguez, Reid Brignac, Ben Zobrist, Elliot Johnson, and Dan Johnson in the infield. All of these gents, outside of maybe Brignac, play more than one position. Evan Longoria owns third base, Brignac and E-Johnson share short, Zobee and S-Rod share second, D-Johnson has a lock on first base (if nothing else, on the merit of last year) but can also play third and DH well, and Lopez has experience playing third, second, short, and left field. Also: Johnny Damon can play first.

Kotchman plays first base.

There are two ways to look at this: (a) The Rays have enough flexibility to carry a backup first baseman best suited to defensive replacement work, or (b) Kotchman does not hit well enough to play one position. If we wanted a defensive replacement, they could make much greater gains by calling up Jose Lobaton or some such defensive beast of a catcher, a position where the present Rays focus largely on offense.

Still, Kotchman is a defensive maven and can realistically add a team 1 win given 500+ PAs -- not really the production a team wants from first base, but valuable nonetheless. In truth, he's cheap and he adds value, but he has no place on this team whence Evan Longoria makes his triumphant return.

He's not a total drain with a bat, just kind of eh, and he's not Carl Crawford with the glove, but still good. He's not useless; he's not amazing; he's Casey Kotchman.

Poll
For digestive regularity and for the giggling, let us poll the community: Casey Kotchman should...
...be starting at first base over Dan Johnson.
188 votes
...be a defensive replacement, send Lopez down.
50 votes
...be a defensive replacement, send him down for Longo.
104 votes
...be designated for assignment.
36 votes

378 votes | Poll has closed

Comment 235 comments  |  0 recs  | 

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What is it with people who actually think Dan Johnson can still be good?

He was an experiment that failed. Is Kotchman the long term solution? NP. But for the present he provides a the Rays with good defense, and a great approach at the plate.

How anyone can vote to send him to Durham and put Johnson back at 1B, shows nothing more than a pre conceived prejudiced about him, and the inability to say , ‘hey, i was wrong’.

follow me on twitter @sternfan10

by sternfan1 on Apr 21, 2011 7:40 AM EDT reply actions  

Not that simple, sterny

I advocate for DJ not on his current production, which sucks, but because he has flashed a higher ceiling than Kotchman in the past. As a rule, you should not make potentially final judgments based on a statistically insignificant sampling, like # of ABs in April 2011. I think some of this is dogmatic, I prefer to have a 1B who hits for power and gets on base over a guy who slaps a few extra singles a month. Fielding-wise DJ’s average 1B UZR/150 is 0.4.

Images:

by Lurch's Lobbyists on Apr 21, 2011 7:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

So use Sept 2010 small sample rather than April 2011?

I would love to see Johnson live up to thre predictions, but, just was never sold on any of the small samples that were used to predict a solid year from a guy past his prime.

by Doyouseeit? on Apr 21, 2011 9:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

So far this season Kotchman has been better than Johnson

however Johnson’s swing% is WAY above his career average. The people who are still on team DanJo recognize that his results haven’t reflected his true talent level to this point based on years of data, not 2 weeks. Remember when the team wasn’t going to get to .500? Small sample sizes and April statistics are not a solid basis on which to make roster decisions.

@staplemaniac

by staplemaniac on Apr 21, 2011 7:57 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Where do you find 'years of data' MLB style on Dan Johnson?

He hasn’t really played MLB since ’07 and me thinks i know why

follow me on twitter @sternfan10

by sternfan1 on Apr 21, 2011 8:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

Pedigree

One player was a former 1st rd pick and the son of a well-respected scout…the other was a 7th round pick. Pedigree is going to get you more chances.

Despite that, Kotchman couldn’t sniff anything more than a minor league deal from the team well-known to shop for first baseman in the discard bin.

by Jason Collette on Apr 21, 2011 8:35 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

That could have been said for Pena and Dan Johnson too less the son of a scout-draft selection

But by age 28 those things tend to lose their value.

Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla

by FreeZorilla on Apr 21, 2011 9:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

I just read a rumor that Chris Simms would replace

Josh Freeman at QB this year. You know of course, he’s the son of a two time SB winner

follow me on twitter @sternfan10

by sternfan1 on Apr 21, 2011 9:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

and look at how many teams Pena found his way to before finding success

and yet still nearly was cut from this one.

My point was that Kotchman has not done anything demonstrably better than Johnson over the past three seasons as a whole. One player couldn’t land a job and went to Japan and came back. The other has been moved off three teams in three years and could only score a job with a team known to troll the trough for 1B.

by Jason Collette on Apr 21, 2011 9:24 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

I give two shits what you think--it's an opinion, you know the story

about how opinions are like assholes, we all have one

follow me on twitter @sternfan10

by sternfan1 on Apr 21, 2011 9:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

.
Where do you find ‘years of data’ MLB style on Dan Johnson?

But whatever.

@staplemaniac

by staplemaniac on Apr 21, 2011 9:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

You're firing on all cylinders this morning

1. We can make numbers say whatever they want
2. Opinions are like assholes

Pretty please, follow these gems by discussing your ‘street smarts’

by GomesSweetGomes on Apr 21, 2011 9:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

Great approach is beyond a stretch

You can’t criticize Jaso, but praise Kotch at the plate. Both are slow GB hitters. Don’t get trapped by results.

Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla

by FreeZorilla on Apr 21, 2011 8:00 AM EDT up reply actions  

Just for reinforcement:

Jaso
O-Swing%: 14.3%
Contact%: 95%
GB%: 40%

Kotchman
O-Swing%: 20%
Contact%: 88%
GB%: 60%

Both Jaso and Kotch have above average eyes, but Jaso has been better by a pretty significant margin and he’s been better at making contact when he swings. And the difference in GB% is huge, and stands for their career stats as well (45% to 55%).

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Apr 21, 2011 8:10 AM EDT up reply actions  

Dan Johnson is a waste!

DanJo needs the minors hitting, like Superman needs sunlight for his super powers. Kotchman brings so much more to the team than DanJo. And those who want to talk about the hitting, DanJo has 7 hits in 15 games in 54 ABs so far this season, while Kotchman has the same number of hits in 6 less games and 34 less ABs. No evidence from any part of history points to DanJo being a better choice at first base than Kotchman. One other thing is that Kotchman isn’t a good or even great defensive first basemen, he is the all-time best defensive first basemen in major league history. With a minimum of 500 games at first base he has highest fielding percentage of anyone at first base. You can question his hitting, but don’t play dumb to the fact he is the best defensive first basemen.

by IhateDanJohnson on Apr 21, 2011 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

Is it the Truth?

Yes. I call you out on how you have no idea what you’re talking about and this is your defense. That’s amazing. You show your real strength, which is not baseball knowledge.

by IhateDanJohnson on Apr 21, 2011 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

When he comes back and says you don't know anything about baseball and reaffirms that denying his prowess as the *best Defensive 1B ever*, please use this as his ban message:

<img src=“http://i558.photobucket.com/albums/ss27/bakazboy/cat-perma-banned.gif”>

Which will display as:

Proof Matthan admitted he was wrong: http://www.draysbay.com/2011/3/18/2058018/ottotd-for-3-18-2011-thursday-night-t-v#61697767

by kericr on Apr 21, 2011 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Good one to have in the toolbox. Thanks.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Apr 21, 2011 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

"That’s amazing. You show your real strength, which is not baseball knowledge."

Sigh.

If I must, I will point you to the sources of my consternation:

1) You joined last month, and have already started making comments. Not a terrible thing, but highly inadvisable. Why? Great question, your best yet!…

2) We have certain expectations when we engage each other in the comments. One is the basic hope you understand baseball as a sport (check, you’ve got that I think). Another is that you engage people in a not-flamer kind of way (I wasn’t offended by your initial post, so why not: check). Most importantly, perhaps, is that you know the foundations of much of the analysis here, which typically requires reading at least these:

Community Guidelines
How to Not Get Banned
DRB Stats Guide
and most importantly: Steve’s Saber Library

…And also reading the site’s usual content for at least a few months beforehand. If you are quoting fielding percentage, one of the single most broken and terrible statistics in the history of sports, then you have little-to-no traction with us here.

See what Steve said.

A DRaysBay and FanGraphs writer from Cubs Stats and Twitter @BradleyWoodrum

by BWoodrum on Apr 21, 2011 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Understandable

I hear what you are trying to say in this. I have been around longer then this website has and therefore I wasn’t born the day before I joined the site. I understand that this is your community that a group of you manage. You have the certain way you like to run it and you have certain stats you like and don’t. That doesn’t mean they don’t exist and are not worthy of being a stat. I am not someone bashing people in here and deserved to be attack the way I am.

by IhateDanJohnson on Apr 21, 2011 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Fielding percentage is about as worthless as you can get.

It tells you how often a player makes an error, but what if you have two outfielders: one can cover a huge amount of territory while another one literally can’t move from side to side. The person that can’t move could never make an error, but would that make them more valuable than a player that can run down doubles in the gap but make a couple occasional errors?

Fielding percentage is only one part of the defensive puzzle, and not the biggest one. Range is huge.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Apr 21, 2011 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

And I completely agree with that,

if you are talking about outfielders. At first base it’s a different story. Usually first basemen get more chances to make an error in a game than an outfielder. I feel it carries more weight at that position.

by IhateDanJohnson on Apr 21, 2011 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

Range matters no matter where you play. Remember all those diving stops Pena would make, turning doubles into outs?

Take a look at Kotchman’s advanced defensive stats, and try basing your argument from there.

One more time: http://www.fangraphs.com/library/index.php/defense/

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Apr 21, 2011 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes, Carlos had great reflexes.

But I just don’t see how that is represented in a stat. I agree with you on your point about basing a player on a multitude of factors to allow a greater basis on which to judge is the way to go. The point of all of this is that there is not concrete factual statistical evidence that DanJo is a better option at first base. In fielding Casey is a better option, his plus/minus is better than DanJo. That’s my opinion and like someone said before you know what they say about those.

by IhateDanJohnson on Apr 21, 2011 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Also

You probably just shouldn’t come back, ever. This entire post is incongruent with this site’s beliefs. You don’t even care to attempt to understand the stats, you just say “I don’t get it”

Seriously, get the fuck out.

by firemangreg on Apr 21, 2011 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ignorance is bliss

and this guy is as happy as they come

by Jason Collette on Apr 21, 2011 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Here's my favorite line...
D-Johnson has a lock on first base (if nothing else, on the merit of last year)

Seriously, I don’t care one way or another about Casey Kotchman. I’m just amused by the amount of hate trolling around the “Magic of Kotch”… Let him fill in, root for him to succeed, and wish him well if the Rays part ways with him. No more, no less.

RaysRev.com or m_weber on twitter

by Rays_Rev on Apr 21, 2011 7:52 AM EDT reply actions  

Good to see him line a double last night

at least shows that he has the capability to do so.

@staplemaniac

by staplemaniac on Apr 21, 2011 7:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

Did you see how stunned he was?

He either thought it was gone or was “holy shit, I hit one in the air!”

It took him a moment to react and start moving out of the box

by Jason Collette on Apr 21, 2011 8:14 AM EDT up reply actions  

MeThree

Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla

by FreeZorilla on Apr 21, 2011 8:01 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'm confused... How is may stating a fact "hate trolling" on Kotchman?

I’m not the one who gave Johnson a lock on first base. It was an organizational decision, and I’m sad to say they never asked me. It appears they are awarding him that position based on his outstanding play last year in the minor leagues (and then eventually in the majors). I’m not inserting my opinion here.

Maybe you didn’t mean the “hate trolling” comment for me — in fact I hope you didn’t. I’m one of the few writers here who dares defend Kotchman, but I’m still not going to wax poetic about him. (I save that for the Garfoose.)

A DRaysBay writer from Cubs Stats and Twitter @BradleyWoodrum

by BWoodrum on Apr 21, 2011 9:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

And as for the Dan Johnson lock comment...

I was referring to the “merit of last year” part. As far as I could see, he didn’t do anything to merit a “lock at 1st base.”

RaysRev.com or m_weber on twitter

by Rays_Rev on Apr 21, 2011 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

I should have been more precise, perhaps.

He has a lock until, I imagine, at least the All-Star Break. The gentleman Johnson literally abused AAA pitchers and then produced decent numbers in the big leagues despite his career-low BABIP. With the lack of an All-Star replacement elsewhere, Johnson gets his shot to prove he can translate at least a sliver of his minors success.

A DRaysBay writer from Cubs Stats and Twitter @BradleyWoodrum

by BWoodrum on Apr 21, 2011 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

Would love to see the counter argument with Johnson

We know he is not a plus defender and I can’t imagine that his bat actually provides anything much if at all above replacement. I am a little confused as well about how we accept him as having a lock on the first base position. And to say that he can DH isn’t saying much. Really anyone can DH but is he providing much from that position.

Dan Johnson = Greg Norton

showed flashes but destined to be replaced and never heard from again.

by JRays on Apr 21, 2011 7:58 AM EDT reply actions  

Who says he's not a plus defender? He's looked absolutely stellar so far this season

Right now his BABIP is .133 and he’s hitting 26.1% of his balls in play for in field fly balls, that is NOT sustainable. That will not continue for any length of time. Dan Johnson will be fine, but he looks like he’s pressing at the moment. For me the biggest concern is a line drive percentage that has decreased every year he’s been in the majors.

@staplemaniac

by staplemaniac on Apr 21, 2011 8:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

I agree, DanJo is an above-average defender

and his LD rates scare me too. Also the fact that he is a career Mendoza-line hitter going up the middle and opposite field really worries me that he will never adjust to the way MLB pitching has adjusted to him.

by jcmitchell on Apr 21, 2011 9:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

Line drives can be a matter of luck at this point.

Any player will tell you: You can see a ball perfectly, put a great swing on it, but miss by the slightest little bit and it goes for a pop-fly or pop-up. Eventually, if your approach is solid, you start getting hits — even if you miss a lot.

A DRaysBay writer from Cubs Stats and Twitter @BradleyWoodrum

by BWoodrum on Apr 21, 2011 10:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

LD still greater than IFF, GB, and FB.

Any hitter will tell you that. I’m also more concerned about his inability to hit the ball up the middle and to the opposite field. He has not adjusted to the way pitchers have adjusted to him. We know he can crush a pitch that he can pull.

Career pulling: .398 AVG .782 SLG
Career up middle: .235 AVG .365 SLG
Career Oppo Field: .217 AVG .297 SLG

His swing is still geared to pulling only. Needs to adjust before opportunities run out.

by jcmitchell on Apr 21, 2011 10:09 AM EDT up reply actions  

Maybe he could just inch closer to the plate

Seriously. Watching Pena for 4 years convinced me that you can’t just ask a guy to fundamentally alter the things that give him success. I don’t see him learning the ability to drive the ball the other way.

by GomesSweetGomes on Apr 21, 2011 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

Not exactly.

Saying that they all pull hitters need to make adjustments at some point. DanJo has yet to adjust, whether it be change his stance or position in the box. You have to prove you can produce in more than area of the field to stop pitchers from exploiting your weaknesses. Even the best pull-hitters had some success at least up the middle. Mark McGwire for instance:

Pull: .522 AVG 1.1197 SLG
Middle: .358 AVG .821 SLG
Oppo: .230 AVG .447 SLG

Every time DanJo goes middle or oppo is leads to weak fly balls or pop ups. He needs to adjust. MLB pitchers will continue to go away-away-away on him.

by jcmitchell on Apr 21, 2011 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

Let me ask you this, 'would a slash line of 282/354/409 and an OPS+ pf 102 be acceptable for

1B?

How about 287/327/448 and a 101 OPS+?

Those are Kotchman’s numbers in 2009 and 2008 repectively playing for ATL before the trade to BOS, and LAA in ’08 before the trade to ATL

In ’09 when he played regularly (336 PA) he put up some decent numbers and the same in ’08 before the trade (398 PA)

After both trades he fell off especially in BOS where he was seldom used and i still don’t understand why BOS wanted him. What these numbers disprove that yes after being traded to a new team and league in each instance he did fall off dramatically, but to say Casey Kotchman has been “awful” for three years is a bit deceiving and being used by those that actually hate on him

follow me on twitter @sternfan10

by sternfan1 on Apr 21, 2011 8:11 AM EDT reply actions  

Saying he hasn't been awful for the last 3 years while ignoring 2010 is a bit deceiving as well is it not?

I think he’s better than his 2010 numbers suggest, but only using pre-trade numbers from 2 and 3 years ago no more tells the entire story than does using his numbers from this season to date.

@staplemaniac

by staplemaniac on Apr 21, 2011 8:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

I completely agree he was awful last season. What i attempted to do and i think

i did it quite well was squash this three straight years of being awful theory that the boys of TPR are parading about and thus building the case around why he’ll never be good again

follow me on twitter @sternfan10

by sternfan1 on Apr 21, 2011 8:47 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

You cherry-picked a 23% sample size out of his plate appearances over the past 3 seasons to make a point

Let’s take out that 23% and look at the remaining 77%

.246/.299/.365 in 1125 plate appearances. Yea, sign me up for that!

I know you and George Washington picked cherries growing up as kids together, but that doesn’t fly around these parts.

by Jason Collette on Apr 21, 2011 8:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

Jason, you too are missing the point. I'm trying to dispute

the TPR theory that he’s been awful for THREE seasons, by showing some dood numbers while playing regularly

I fully understand 2010, for whatever reason was bad

follow me on twitter @sternfan10

by sternfan1 on Apr 21, 2011 8:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

77% of shit > 23% of good

A .230 batting average is still a bad batting average.

Dioner Navarro had one great season and then became Dioner Navarro again. This is why us slurpers/haters look at 1000+ PAs of work because true colors reveal themselves in larger sample sizes. Anyone can have a decent to hot year but 3 years of work is going to show what a guy really is.

by Jason Collette on Apr 21, 2011 8:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

Fortunately for us true Rays fans, Joe Maddon doesn't read the garbage

that shows up on these and TPR pages about this debate

follow me on twitter @sternfan10

by sternfan1 on Apr 21, 2011 9:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

If it is garbage, why do you continue to read and pollute these threads with your trollish language?

Or is just garbage because you are proven to be in the wrong more often than not based on fact and sample size?

by Jason Collette on Apr 21, 2011 9:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

SLURRRRRRRRRRRRPPPPPPPPPP

The caller said the boy, after removing the bulb from its socket, left the building and threw the bulb on the ground. When the bulb broke, the caller said the boy screamed "rape trial program substances"

by Top Gun Numba 1 on Apr 21, 2011 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

So to recap

When you want to make a point about why the rays are doomed, you cherry-pick out the best section of their season, point to it, and use the remainder as an example on why the Rays will not return to .500. When you want to make a point about Kotchman, you simply remove his worst at bats in ’08 and ’09, and pretend that ’10 never happened.

All at-bats, and all games count. If Kotchman is really so thin-skinned that getting traded hurts his widdle fweelings and makes him suck, he’s not cut out to play at the MLB level.

by GomesSweetGomes on Apr 21, 2011 8:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

Be on whatever side of the fence you choose, i don't care

I simply point to some actual stats based on when he got to play everyday, and how he succeeded.

And anyone who builds a case for Dan Johnson has less of a resume to cherry pick from than i do

follow me on twitter @sternfan10

by sternfan1 on Apr 21, 2011 8:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

In 09 with Atlanta

He was worth 6 runs above replacement. You know who else was worth 6 RAR that season?

Carlos Delgado
Fernando Tatis
our own B.J. Upton (different position, of course)
Jason Giambi was a 5

In 2010:

Jason Giambi was 6 RAR in 114 less PA than Kotchman in 09
Ross Gload was 5 RAR in 198 less PA than Kotchman in 09

Let me ask you this — were you perfectly fine with Carlos Pena at 1B last season? Because he had a 102 OPS+ last season. So did Troy Glaus — and he can’t get a job right now.

102 OPS+ would be below AL average for the position.

Dan Johnson was a 110 OPS+ last season in 140 PAs, Kotchman was a 102 OPS+ in 336 PA but you sure seem to want to give Kotchman more leash despite the fact he has a .254/.311/.375 (that’s a .686 OPS) slash line over his last 1461 plate appearances. He’s also hit into 44 double plays in that span — one thing Johnson avoids since he hits so many fly balls.

A .686 OPS, for a first baseman, is a hindrance to a club over a full season.

by Jason Collette on Apr 21, 2011 8:33 AM EDT reply actions  

Who mentioned 2010? While i see you didn't 'directly' respond to it

it’s an obvious attempt to discount the numbers. But i’ll stand firm on my question and basis , would those numbers be acceptable?

Using Dan Johnson’s OPS+ for 2010 might be criticized by your peers for SSS

follow me on twitter @sternfan10

by sternfan1 on Apr 21, 2011 8:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

I mentioned 2010 to bring in examples of what 6 runs above replacement looks like

I also showed his production across the last 1461 plate appearances — more than enough of a sample size to make a point. A .686 OPS is worse than any 1B in baseball last year — even worse than Jorge Cantu who hit .256/.304/.392 last season. Over the past 20 seasons, just 27 first baseman with at least 400 plate appearances have had sub .700 OPS in a single season with Cantu the “highest” at .695 last season. Others include:

Matt LaPorta last season
Kotchman last season
Huff in 09
Gload in 08
Barton in 08
Noarm in 07
Sexson in 07
Phil Nevin in 05
Darin Erstad (a perfect comp here) in 05 when he hit .273/.325/.371
MIentkiewicz in 2004
.
.
.
Travis Lee in 1999

I brought up 140 PA to make a point — you looking at 54 PA’s in 2011 while discrediting the body of work of his previous 1461. Give me Pena’s power and low batting average any day over an empty batting average. If I wanted to watch slap hitting first baseman, I’d break out my 2006 Royals videos.

by Jason Collette on Apr 21, 2011 8:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

Isn't baseball the greatest game on earth for people who like playing with numbers

Like muppets we can almost make them say what we want

follow me on twitter @sternfan10

by sternfan1 on Apr 21, 2011 8:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

.

He’s house money — I hope he does well while he is up, but in the end, he is completely replaceable. Besides, the fact that Johnson can step over to 3B if needed also makes him a better asset. Injuries have already proven to be more of a problem thus far than they were last year.

by Jason Collette on Apr 21, 2011 8:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

But we should be realistic as well

If there’s an underlying reason that he did better before trades in 2008/2009 then your statistics would back it up, except that he wasn’t traded in 2010 and he did far worse than the previous 2 years which negates your point. To try to figure out a players true talent level (unless there are extenuating circumstances) it’s ALWAYS better to go with the larger sample size.

@staplemaniac

by staplemaniac on Apr 21, 2011 8:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

When Longo

gets back and if nobody else goes on DL. Felipe Lopez might be gone.He has a career GB% of 50.2%. His UZR/150 is not that impresive at 3b and is bad at other positions.He will not be kept as a pinch runner. To say he is flexible position wise does not help the Rays because of all the other flexible players we have.

by Landlord on Apr 21, 2011 9:00 AM EDT reply actions  

Switch-hitter

Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla

by FreeZorilla on Apr 21, 2011 9:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

Lopez = Aybar

That’s his role….despite some of his antics, I don’t see him going down when a roster spot is needed. Kotchman will easily clear waivers while Lopez would get snagged.

by Jason Collette on Apr 21, 2011 9:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

I give more credence

to the switch hitter,Aybar position than I do the flexibility point in the post.To me it looks likes Joe will look at what he has needs for ,rather than who the best player is.

by Landlord on Apr 21, 2011 9:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

Can someone tell me how Johnson has a lock on first base?

I have been his supporter and all, and I hate Kotchman, but I don’t really see how it is possible.

by mr. maniac on Apr 21, 2011 9:31 AM EDT reply actions  

Oh he most definitely should not at this point.

Frankly, I think both Kotchman and Johnson would clear waivers right now. So while this makes for interesting debate, I don’t think either is gonna be a guy we are going to ride to 90 wins. Its just a matter of which does the least harm relative to the production that should be provided for an MLB 1b.

by GomesSweetGomes on Apr 21, 2011 9:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

I agree.

I think both would clear waivers and the Rays do need an upgrade, just not many options unless we can get Branyan (beating a dead horse) or possibly Brandon Allen from ARI for a reasonable price.

by jcmitchell on Apr 21, 2011 9:49 AM EDT up reply actions  

Rather see Damon at 1B

and promote Ruggiano over Jennings right now due to his arb-clock, not ability. I hate the Super-2 rule!

by jcmitchell on Apr 21, 2011 9:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

I don't see Ruggiano as an offensive improvement over Johnson/Kotchman

And if he is, it is very minimal. Not to mention you’d lose something defensively with Damon at first, meaning Ruggiano would need to compensate that much more.

by GomesSweetGomes on Apr 21, 2011 10:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

I only rec that because the Rays do not want Jennings to be a Super-Two.

I do think Guyer could be an upgrade, though. But not sure if he’s on the 40-man off the top of my head.

by jcmitchell on Apr 21, 2011 10:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

Can we talk about Wade Davis instead?

Good era, bad FIP. Maddon’s praising his newfound control, but should we be worried?

@ptSuttery

by Suttree on Apr 21, 2011 10:05 AM EDT reply actions  

Yes

I thought he was playing with fire all night last night. IIRC he had a similar start last year with good ERA, bad periphs, then fell off a cliff in may/june

by GomesSweetGomes on Apr 21, 2011 10:06 AM EDT up reply actions  

I missed most of the game last night

but I don’t like it from what I saw.

love it love it love it
i hate one person more than Pap smear—his name is bin laden
by sternfan1 on Aug 12, 2010 3:33 PM EDT

by SRQman on Apr 21, 2011 10:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

Oh ye of little faith

You forget that the Rays are the team that soaks its players in a magical elixir and makes stars of nobodies and has beens.

Oh and Manny went on the lam, not on the lamb…

by Professor Twain on Apr 21, 2011 10:06 AM EDT reply actions  

Many thanks.

I will mend that now.

A DRaysBay writer from Cubs Stats and Twitter @BradleyWoodrum

by BWoodrum on Apr 21, 2011 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

What do we send them?

Normally, it’s easy but their prospect depth is filthy so it has to be major league talent going their way.

by Jason Collette on Apr 21, 2011 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

"You can never have too many pitching prospects."

Seriously, though: if the Rays put together something like Colome/Barnese/Cruz, I would think that would be an awfully hard package to turn down.

by AndrewTorrez on Apr 21, 2011 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

107 comments dedicated to Casey Kotchman

Impressive.
When Longo returns, keep Lopez and ditch Kotch. There is no need to keep a backup 1B on the roster who can’t hit, and would only be a defensive replacement for a perfectly capable defensive 1B (DanJo).

by MikeB. on Apr 21, 2011 10:50 AM EDT reply actions  

this is what happens

when you start a thread because you’ve taken SF1 troll bait

by AndrewTorrez on Apr 21, 2011 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

Dan Johnson = Crash Davis

The Greatest minor league players of All-time.

by IhateDanJohnson on Apr 21, 2011 12:50 PM EDT reply actions  

Kotchman sucks, riding the hot hand is silly when that hand limp-wristedly holds the bat

I hope they Designate him to swim in shark-infested waters.

@SandyKazmir Die or Ride, You Decide

by Sandy Kazmir on Apr 21, 2011 12:59 PM EDT reply actions  

I have no idea how to use commas, but I'm pretty sure it's spelled "cocktail"

Maybe you should go get a Master’s in English instead of a worthless Bachelor’s.

@SandyKazmir Die or Ride, You Decide

by Sandy Kazmir on Apr 21, 2011 1:00 PM EDT reply actions  

"IhateDannyPeterson"

Do the world a favor and get yourself spayed or neutered, ya filthy animal.

@SandyKazmir Die or Ride, You Decide

by Sandy Kazmir on Apr 21, 2011 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is pretty ridiculous

That user is not Danny P, it is my brother’s and we both know Kotchman, that is why at times we can be biased. Correction to Steve I was banned once for telling you “loved on DanJo’s happy parts” and I have learned my lesson to not tell Mods to love on others balls :). Since then I have behaved and stayed out of discussions with you Sandy because you are the king of trolls. All you do is bully people around and throw 1 valid post out of the 10 other hateful messages towards others. This is kind of ridiculous that the site allows you to say hateful things like that when I have never returned the favor until I called you the king of trolls now.

by DaveMartinezbeard on Apr 21, 2011 7:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Cavernous, or otherwise.

@SandyKazmir Die or Ride, You Decide

by Sandy Kazmir on Apr 21, 2011 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

You also failed to mention baserunning where Kotchman has cost his team about 4.5 runs according to EQBRR each of the last three seasons

So let’s say that he’s going to be worth -5 runs at the plate, gets back 6 in the field, and costs 4 on the bases. That’s -3 runs or -.3 WAR out of your 1B. Not too shabby.

@SandyKazmir Die or Ride, You Decide

by Sandy Kazmir on Apr 21, 2011 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ooh, didn't even consider it.

Well played. Not much more I can say.

He has been better this year, creating two hits out of hit-and-runs, but that’s looking at the results more than the process. I imagine he’s still below average. (Also, it’s not like he gets on base anyway, zing.)

A DRaysBay and FanGraphs writer from Cubs Stats and Twitter @BradleyWoodrum

by BWoodrum on Apr 21, 2011 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

I have to go do real work now, but I look forward to seeing what slack-jawed, borderline birthers have to say about why Casey Kotchman is useful at the game of baseball.

My WAR calc was off above, using Sky’s WAR Calculator if he wOBAs .320, loses 4.5 runs on the bases, and saves 6 in the field, he’s worth 1.3 WAR over 700 PA. This does not change my opinion that he should be blindfolded and released in the middle of the Mojave.

@SandyKazmir Die or Ride, You Decide

by Sandy Kazmir on Apr 21, 2011 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Bye!

This post was written by a member of the DRaysBay community and does not necessarily express the views or opinions of DRaysBay staff.

by DeadeyeRR on Apr 21, 2011 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Curious?

I have not attack anyone in here today, except by challenging someone’s baseball knowledge. I have been ridiculed mocked and accused of being someone else who has been banned twice before who probably was brother. I state a fact about a stat that you don’t hold dear, so I have no credibility. You can personally disagree with what someone has to say but personally attacking someone, like Sandy Kazmir does to everyone, and then accuse me of doing exactly that is ridiculous. There has been a great deal of people being more combative then I, so if you’re going to come down on me for disagreeing with something, why have a comment section at all?

by IhateDanJohnson on Apr 21, 2011 1:54 PM EDT reply actions  

Posting here isn't as simple as posting on other sites.

We like our statistics and we like reason. Again, see Brad’s comment above: http://www.draysbay.com/2011/4/21/2123895/casey-kotchman-conundrum#64914583

Read up on the community guidelines and some of the stats stuff, and you’ll get there. If you can accept that you might not know everything there is to know about baseball and you’re willing to learn, that’s a big step.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Apr 21, 2011 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Moving away from the troll war for a second,

47% say Kotch should be starting over DanJo in this poll. I think what this means is that 47% of the voters should get out.

by MikeB. on Apr 21, 2011 2:21 PM EDT reply actions  

It's a sad, sad day.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Apr 21, 2011 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's funny that we continue to be so sure..

that this pile of crap is so much better than the other. They both are not very good. DanJo gives adequate defensive ability and occasionally pop in his bat but he swings for the fences which results in mostly pop ups. His best game was the 2nd BoSox Game where he went with the pitch and was able to get some solid singles. Casey had his first decent hitting game yesterday when he showed the little pop he owns. He hits too many ground balls which is a terrible quality of a starting 1B but has great defense. They both don’t appear to be the permanent answer at 1B yet the mods are so sure DanJo is better and the non buddy’s of the mods or trolls as you say. It’s a difference of opinion on which pile of crap is better and were all idiots for continuing to argue.

by DaveMartinezbeard on Apr 21, 2011 8:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

You know, I actually agree with you a lot here.

Neither DanJo or Kotch is perfect…that’s definitely true. And at this rate, it’s pretty unclear if either of them is a permanent answer – you’re right, the most likely answer is that neither of them is. And your last sentence is so right on: “It’s a difference of opinion on which pile of crap is better and were all idiots for continuing to argue.”

I still think DanJo has more upside than Kotchman, as he had an impressive year in Triple-A last year and “Quad A” players are more rare than you’d think, but he’s been pretty bad so far this year. I’ve got no problem with you or your opinions when you support them like this, with facts and arguments and such….many thanks.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Apr 21, 2011 9:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Most of my post with my actual name were backed up by facts..

but I was young(DraysbayYears) and got caught up in Sandy’s BS instead of knowing better and ignoring his post. I regret entering with guns blazing but I disagreed strongly and now I know how to approach your site. Over the course of the year Kotchman’s consistent average, occasional doubles, and consistent defense will be of more value than what DanJo brings to the plate. DanJo is much more of a situational guy than an every day player in my eyes unless he reevaluates his approach to his at bats. He has value and should stay on the team due to his value in late inning needs for a sac fly or a pumpkin HR.

As of right now nobody has a definite answer but Casey seems to be leading the race between the two turds

by DaveMartinezbeard on Apr 21, 2011 9:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Branyan-ero!

Proof Matthan admitted he was wrong: http://www.draysbay.com/2011/3/18/2058018/ottotd-for-3-18-2011-thursday-night-t-v#61697767

by kericr on Apr 21, 2011 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

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