A Closer Look: Alex Cobb
Though Desmond Jennings, Brandon Guyer, and, yes, Jose Lobaton have carried the offense for the Durham Bulls so far, the two biggest stars may be on the mound. A pair of Alexes, Cobb and Torres, have dominated the International League through a combined seven starts. Alex Cobb is 3-0 with a 2.05 ERA in four of those starts, racking up 29 strikeouts (good for the IL lead) and six walks in 22 innings. Opponents have hit just .215 off him so far this year, and despite not lighting up the radar gun, he's gotten better as he's risen through the system. Here's a closer look at how he's been getting it done in 2011:
Fastball: It's the most pedestrian of his three offerings, a 90-93 mph pitch delivered from a not-very-imposing 6-2/195 frame. It's got some sinking action which helps lead to a decent groundball rate, but it doesn't have much late life and doesn't really "explode" on hitters. He recognizes this, of course, so his plan of attack isn't to try to over-power hitters with his heater. Rather, he uses it to set up his effective off-speed pitches.
That aspect of his game could use some work. While he's generally around the plate with his it, and he isn't afraid to come inside, his fastball command rates only as average at it's best right now. He hasn't thrown as many first-pitch strikes as I expected given his stat-line this season, and while he isn't exclusively a first-pitch fastball guy, he's had some trouble getting ahead in the count and has to go to his off-speed stuff to get strikes. That's both a blessing (as he's confident in his ability to throw any pitch in any count) and a curse (at the major-league level, pitching backwards can only get you so far). While he's able to stay out of the very middle of the plate, he hasn't quite been painting on the corners and got in trouble in his last start when he left it up in the zone.
Split-Change: This pitch is his bread-and-butter. A hybrid split-finger + change-up, he throws it around 85 mph and has generated a huge number of swings and misses with it so far this season. The phrase "the bottom drops out of it" could not be more appropriate, as it falls off the table late to fool hitters. Because it lacks the armside run of a traditional change-up (meaning it doesn't tail a bit back toward right-handed hitters), he has no qualms about using it against both lefties and righties, and it loses no effectiveness. Here's a comparison to his fastball to show how it can fool hitters with the similar delivery:
(uploading gifs turns out to be a huge pain, so here are just the videos. They're both the same two pitches, just given side-by-side and top-and-bottom. For whatever reason the change-up sort of looks like a curve in the small box. Here's the raw video of the Changeup if you're interested.)
Cobb generally commands this pitch well, keeping it down in the zone, often having it wind up in the dirt. He's been able to throw it for strikes, but changeups are pitches that you want to miss up in the zone with. While not perfect, he does a good job of starting it at the knees or just above and having it dive out of the zone. This is where fastball command becomes important, because if he can consistently throw fastballs for strikes around the knees, his split-change will be all the more effective because it will look like it's a fastball coming in for a strike.
I was a little bit concerned that the lack of a lack of big velocity difference (it's 5-8 mph slower than this fastball) could prove to be a problem, but I think the pitch has enough movement to stand fine on its own. It's still a question mark just because of how unconventional it is, but not normal doesn't equate to bad. Neil Solondz, the Durham radio broadcaster, compared it to Carl Pavano's changeup. One of Pavano's problems, at least to my knowledge, is that lack of velocity between his fastball and changeup. As Joe Morgan would say, I haven't see Pavano pitch enough, but my guess is that Cobb's has better movement.
Curveball: Cobb surprised me with how he used this pitch. While he had trouble spotting his fastball for a first-pitch strike, he was able to drop in a curveball on the first pitch on a few occasions. In his best start of the season, the home opener against Norfolk, he threw it for a first-pitch strike five times. Like the split-change, he uses this pitch indiscriminately, though all of the swings and misses on this pitch in that game came from righties. It's got good break to it, but it's more of a loopy breaker than a sharp one.
Overall impressions: Cobb has been impressive in triple-A even beyond his statline, but there's still stuff to work on for the 23-year-old. He's been working on a cutter as a way to keep hitters off his regular four-seamer, but it's still a work in progress. He does a good job of pitching backwards to keep hitters guessing, but I'd like to see him use his fastball more (at least for now) to help develop further his ability to command it. I haven't heard of this happening in the Rays system, but I wonder if the organization might put a limit on how many split-changes he can throw for a few starts so he can learn to succeed without it and resist over-reliance on it.
He may not have the ace ceiling like others in the system, but he has a refined repertoire and should be able to survive as a #3, 4, or 5 starter even in the AL East. His split-change is his most impressive pitch, and while it's not a gimmick, it remains to be seen if it can remain effective as more advanced hitters see it multiple times in a game or season. If he can't crack the rotation for whatever reason, I think the bullpen would be a nice fallback for him, where he'd be roughly a Dan Wheeler type (very solid, but not dominant strikeout and walk numbers) with fewer home runs. Should Jeff Niemann continues to struggle in St. Pete while Cobb keeps producing for Durham, it's easy to see a "Free Alex Cobb" campaign starting. There's certainly things to like with Cobb, but with only four regular-season triple-A starts in his career, there's also still room to grow.
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My vote is to keep Cobb down if/when Niemann needs a DL trip.
Both Alex’s… Alexi?… are 23, so it’d be nice to see them perfect their crafts in AAA before pushing them into service. I think it’s a smarter move both contractually and developmentally.
In the case of a DL’d Niemann, I’d rather see some combo of Sonny and Hayhurst in the 5th starter/long man role.
A DRaysBay and FanGraphs writer from Cubs Stats and Twitter @BradleyWoodrum
Why Hayhurst?
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by Sandy Kazmir on Apr 26, 2011 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions
SLUUUUUUURP
love it love it love it
i hate one person more than Pap smear—his name is bin laden
by sternfan1 on Aug 12, 2010 3:33 PM EDT
He certainly would appear to be the long man in waiting no?
If Sonny were to become a starter over the Alexes, Dirk would be a logical longman
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by FreeZorilla on Apr 26, 2011 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Longman, yes.
I was under the impression that he would be the fifth starter.
However, I would like Ekstrom or Gomes come up over Hayhurst.
Both Gomes and Ek may be better suited to short relief.
Neither have been starters for some time.
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meh
I wouldn’t mind giving either a chance in limited action, so they (and the org.) can see what they need to work on further in the minors. I’d probably err to Cobb first as Torres’ walk issues could kill him in ALE games.
Both Cobb and Torres are still a year away, though, so yeah -- I'd like to see if Hayhurst can be the real deal.
Also, it’d make for a thrilling second book.
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The real reason you want him to be called up
Also, it’d make for a thrilling second book
love it love it love it
i hate one person more than Pap smear—his name is bin laden
by sternfan1 on Aug 12, 2010 3:33 PM EDT
+1
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by Imperialism32 on Apr 26, 2011 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions
They are dominating so far at AAA. They are likely betetr big league pitchers now than at least 10 guys in big league rotations.
If they were on a host of other teams, they would have been pushed quicker and likely already up. We have the luxury to have them in AAA now, but many teams would be forced to use them in the rotation. That doesn’t mean they are or are not ready, but I do think they are ready for a swing start or 3.
A swing start or three.
Of course. I read Woodrum’s reply as if he was saying, ready for full time duty in a year. I’d rather we see Sonny-Cobb-Torres depending on the time of year. If Torres was still with the Angels, there is no doubt that he would have already been called up, but like you said, this is the ALE, and his walk issues would kill him here.
The question is, what is a reasonable BB/9 for you to declare him ready, and how many innings do you want for that sample size, because 3.52 in 15 innings isn’t enough for me, when he is coming off a 4.42 from last year.
by ballsdeep187 on Apr 26, 2011 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree with you FreeZorilla
where are my gifs? is this a new thread? you guys are litl fucking sluts. uck you guys. i bet you guys tmpons in the womines bathromms and pay 75 cents for each ne. fuck you
by daveh33 on Sep 3, 2010 11:09 PM EDT reply actions
by PriceMultiCyYoungs on Apr 26, 2011 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions
Any thoughts on Cobb improving his sinker (using a 2 seamer)
and becoming more of a Pavano-type going sinker/change mostly? Velocity seems about the same and from what I’ve seen Pavano doesn’t rely on control exclusively.
It's possible
This is why I’d like to see him throw his fastball more at triple-A, to help with its development.
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by Imperialism32 on Apr 26, 2011 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions
Excellent Kevin.
Any chance you could break down Guyuer? I know hitters tend to be harder, but I am starting to wonder how good he is.
Also, for Cobb, that fastball command is going to kill him. We have seen what has happened to Shields and Hellickson when they don’t have fastball command, yet both pitchers have better off-speed pitches.
Cobb and Hellickson each have/had 0.7 HR/9 in the minors
Cobb hasn’t been over 0.5 since Columbus in 2008, and hasn’t really had HR problems at the higher levels like Hellickson did in AA. He probably won’t become Shields or Hellickson, but a serviceable #4? I could see that.
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by Imperialism32 on Apr 26, 2011 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions
I could see a servicable 4.
I am not sure that gets him into the Rays rotation though.
As far as homers, I still think they will be a problem in the minors. They are for Hellickson.
FIP/xFIP consistently in the low to mid 4s isn't a good pitcher. It's a serviceable back of the rotation arm.
Your looking at Millwood, Maholm, Garland, etc. numbers.
FIP is better for projecting the future because, honestly, it doesn't give credit to guys with low K rates.
Now saying that his failures now are a result of the average FIP is wrong because Niemann’s process is different now, not just the results.
ERA is much better for looking at how a pitcher actually did.
After all, ERA is how many runs the pitcher gave up. FIP is nice and all for seeing what the guy is going to do, but it really isn’t a good indicator of how the pitcher performed.
But neither is ERA
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by Imperialism32 on Apr 26, 2011 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Pitcher A: 90 IP 40 ER 20 BB 100 SO
Pitcher B: 90 IP 25 ER 40 BB 65 SO
Who pitched better?
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by Imperialism32 on Apr 26, 2011 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Pitcher B.
After all, he gave up less runs in the same span. Runs win games, not striking out batters.
If you were to ask me who would do better in the future, I might think Pitcher A.
Um, people who realize that errors/"earned" runs aren't good bases of analysis.
by R.J. Anderson on Apr 26, 2011 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Because errors are subjective and what one scorer calls an error another might.
So you have scorer’s bias that affects ERA.
by R.J. Anderson on Apr 26, 2011 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions
The umpire is the arbiter fo the field. His word is law.
The scorer is a team employee that’s just a record keeper. Big difference.
I don't know what this even means or how it relates to my comment.
Use Run Average, not ERA if you absolutely want to play the “BUT RESULTS!!!” card.
by R.J. Anderson on Apr 26, 2011 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions
One final question.
What exactly makes FIP a good statistic. I know what it is supposed to do, but the formula just doesn’t seem all too right to me.
Source: THT
Fielding Independent Pitching, a measure of all those things for which a pitcher is specifically responsible. The formula is (HR*13+(BB+HBP-IBB)3-K2)/IP, plus a league-specific factor (usually around 3.2) to round out the number to an equivalent ERA number. FIP helps you understand how well a pitcher pitched, regardless of how well his fielders fielded.
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by Imperialism32 on Apr 26, 2011 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Formula got messed up because of asterisks
It’s here: http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/statpages/glossary/
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by Imperialism32 on Apr 26, 2011 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Explanation:
HRs are generally FBs. FBs generally go for HRs at about a 10% clip. LD% is not significantly tied to pitcher’s (i.e. pitcher’s generally lump aroun the mean over time). aSo the difference is between pitchers is tied to GB/FB. HRs tell you that difference.
Before you say “that’s all generalities and varies from year to year or whatever,” I’d argue these tell you better how the ball was hit then the play by play in a boxscore.
It's still pretty useful
(I don’t think you’re arguing that it’s useless)
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by Imperialism32 on Apr 26, 2011 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't think anyone does.
It’s still better than ERA. I waffle over FIP/xFIP/tERA/etc. all the time.
Of course not because there is no perfect stat
So you’d look at FIP and batted ball data and other stuff.
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by Imperialism32 on Apr 26, 2011 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions
15 unearned runs seem a bit high, ERA should be used over a larger sample, but so should FIP
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by Sandy Kazmir on Apr 27, 2011 9:06 AM EDT up reply actions
Or RA because these things actually happened and they count
Over 10 years defense should be shifting around enough to create some neutrality with that noise.
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by Sandy Kazmir on Apr 27, 2011 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions
I still much prefer RA.
I don't need a link for that, if your sample size is big enough to use
actual runs then go with RA over ERA. My fault for not differentiating, but I thought I was getting the point across without being specific.
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by Sandy Kazmir on Apr 27, 2011 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions
No sir, though in hindsight I wish I had used the phrase
stinkin linkin at some point.
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by Sandy Kazmir on Apr 27, 2011 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions
You're thinking in terms of results
Think of “pitching” as doing well in the categories a pitcher can control, ie K, BB, HR
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by Imperialism32 on Apr 26, 2011 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions
May require some scrolling down
http://joeposnanski.blogspot.com/2011/03/chinese-jibberish.html
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by Imperialism32 on Apr 26, 2011 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions
You see, pitcher B did pitch better than pitcher A.
Student A: 100 questions on test. Knew 50 without guessing. Guessed on 50 and got 45 right. 95/100
Student B: 100 questions on test. Knew 75 without guessing. Guessed on 25 and got five right. 80/100
Student A was probably smarter, but student B did better.
That's not what he listed at all.
He listed ER. That doesn’t tell you who gave up more runs.
by R.J. Anderson on Apr 26, 2011 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions
I was referring to earned runs, of course.
My basic point is that although Niemann’s true talent level may be a #4 starter, he pitched like a 2/3 for the Rays (until his injury).
You could say that it is regression time now, or that the injury is affecting him. I am opting towards injury.
He didn't pitch like a 2/3 if you know what you're looking for in a pitcher, but that wasn't my comment.
by R.J. Anderson on Apr 26, 2011 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions
The process may have not been a 2/3, but the results were.
The Rays defense and luck helped him out for sure, but that doesn’t change the result.
This is "lol" because of our argument a while back, yes?
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by Imperialism32 on Apr 26, 2011 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Hm? It's not in response to a comment you made.
by R.J. Anderson on Apr 26, 2011 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Ah, yes, I see that now
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by Imperialism32 on Apr 26, 2011 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions
As for Guyer, I'll add it to the queue
I’ll be doing more of these, either here or at RaysProspects. Alex Torres is next, then maybe Brandon Gomes or Brandon Guyer.
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by Imperialism32 on Apr 26, 2011 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I love Nimmo, like Fernandez, like Cron
Would love to get Kolten Wong with one of the picks at the end of the round but probably not likely, and I wouldn’t take him at 24
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by Imperialism32 on Apr 26, 2011 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions
Meh
/tools whore
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by Imperialism32 on Apr 26, 2011 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions
I mean I don't dislike him
I might take Wong over him though
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by Imperialism32 on Apr 26, 2011 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions
True
I guess the issue is Wong could move to the OF and likely be plus in CF whereas Bradley has nowhere to move as his bat doesn’t do anything for you outside of CF. I like Wong a lot as well.
Yeah
Wong’s hit tool seems better than any tool Bradley has.
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by Imperialism32 on Apr 26, 2011 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions
Speaking of, it's a shame Springer has started hitting again and moved back in to the top 15.
Nabbing him at 24 would have been pretty nice.
I've been pimping Cron for a minute now.
I’d have no isse using two other first rounders on huge upside HS guys. With this many picks, getting guys with huge upside that are willing to sign is key. Even if 2/3 fail, if you can get some of these high upside guys to figure it out it can pay huge dividends.
Agreed
Jose Fernandez sounds a lot like this year’s Aaron Sanchez, who I love.
Swihart would be awesome but he might not get to us and I doubt we’d take another catcher that high. Derek Fisher would be amazing but probably a high price tag. Maybe with a sandwich pick. Bats are scarce this year unfortunately.
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by Imperialism32 on Apr 26, 2011 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions
You'd think so
Our short-season teams are going to be ridiculous with the draftees plus Sale/Vett/Brett
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by Imperialism32 on Apr 26, 2011 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah.
Rally makes me mad that HV moved to the MWL as I’ll never get to see them. Otherwise, I could held down to NC to take in these teams over the enxt few years.
BG I assume you mean?
It sucks for me too, Lakewood is pretty close to me and I’d have been able to see them.
I’ll at least get up to Staten Island or Brooklyn to see HV.
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by Imperialism32 on Apr 26, 2011 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Gomes has been lights out, crazy good
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by FreeZorilla on Apr 26, 2011 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions
I love guys whose #'s keep putting it to the scouts with each level they advance.
The scouts may have their day yet, but I’ll be rooting for BG The Prince of Rap
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by FreeZorilla on Apr 26, 2011 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Sure, if they doubt the guy has the stuff to be an effective reliever
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by FreeZorilla on Apr 26, 2011 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Guess I just haven't seen much written about mid-20s relievers in the minors on most scouting services.
Isn't that because most good relievers are converted starters or make the majors earlier?
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by FreeZorilla on Apr 26, 2011 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions
From RJ
From a previous discussion with Padres’ diehard Marc Normandin, I found out that scouts like Gomes less than his numbers would suggest. His fastball can hit the mid-90s but it occasionally runs flat. Gomes’ curveball is his bread and butter. Tasty enough that Kevin Goldstein called him a nice little sleeper.
And from Chaim Bloom via the Process Report:
Both have the ingredients to get important outs in our division. Russell is a big man with power stuff and an intimidating presence, while Brandon has excellent deception, a good fastball and swing-and-miss secondary pitches. Obviously one has big league experience and one doesn’t so you can expect Russell to be the first to contribute. In his time in the majors, he’s shown that he can strike guys out and limit extra-base power and those are two good building blocks for success in the AL East.
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by FreeZorilla on Apr 26, 2011 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions
From what I've seen of him
His splitter (split-change? Not sure which) is his out pitch
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by Imperialism32 on Apr 26, 2011 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions
true.
Doesn’t seem like he’s defying the scouts so much as they think his numbers are due to come up in the majors. Either way, it’s nice to see. Deceptive RPs always seem to be the ones that are hardest to peg. Some can thrive while others get to the bigs and their stuff gets exploited.
Kevin
My only problem with not allowing him to use his change is that several prospects who have done that end up losing their best pitch. Rick Porcello is a good example.
Right now, Neimann and Cobb keep pitching the same day
And while I don’t see him as a long term SP, I think we have all had enough for Neimann at least for a month, maybe he can appear good like Scott Kazmir and then be Kazmir’d the second Torres is ready to go.
Under construction
The one issue I have with th Wheeler comp. is I think he'll be better against both hands.
I think he’d be in the Peralta/Nelson mold because that split change allows him to get both handed batters out while Wheelz best pitch was his slider which caused him to have trouble with lefties.
It was meant from a statistical standpoint but yeah
Though lefties hit .293 off Cobb last year, so we’ll see.
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by Imperialism32 on Apr 26, 2011 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions
Disagree on "much better" stuff
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by Imperialism32 on Apr 26, 2011 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions
I'd say his CB is plus and probably better than Cobb's.
Similar FB and Helly’s CH appears to be a little better.
Better fastball, change, and curve.
Better cutter too. Not one pitch that is much better, but Cobb doesn’t have a pitch that is better than Hellickson’s.
Hellickson's pitches really developed in AAA
Really utilized his waiting time well.
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These are the same arguments that were consistently used against Hellickson in the minors
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by FreeZorilla on Apr 26, 2011 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Yea thats my point, if Cobb continues to succeed
These too will fade
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by FreeZorilla on Apr 26, 2011 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Couple of first-hand accts. of Cobb
Game stories w/ postgame reactions from Cobb, from two of his 2011 starts so far:
.
Reply to rglass. (moving too far to the right.)
Has anyone done an analysis into GB and FB baa for individual pitchers. My argument is all GBs and FBs aren’t equal.
Have there been pitchers that consistently over-perform or under-perform there baa numbers?
I'm an F18, Bro
Not that I know of, but most guys tend not to outperform.
Tim Hudson is one guy that comes to mind who always seems to fare better ERA wise than FIP wise.
Looking at FG, there are guys who seemingly consistently outperform/underperform FIP by ERA, but not by huge amounts.
If you looka t E-F for all pitchers since 1970 with at least 1000 IP, the range is from .76 to .95. There are less than 15 guys who are +/ .5 on this out of 473 pitchers. If you restrict it to 1500 IP you have 3 guys on either side of .5. This doesn’t take park or defense in to account either.
Hmm
Reminds me a lot of another current Rays pitcher who wasn’t a heralded prospect due to lack of velocity
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
That's mean, comparing him to James Houser
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by Imperialism32 on Apr 26, 2011 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions
(you said current so this joke doesnt work)
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by Imperialism32 on Apr 26, 2011 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Talking to RJ today got me thinking the same. I'm really shocked he never brings that comp up.
I guess he hesitates to put anyone in the rarefied air he holds Shields in.

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