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First Base In The Long Run

The Rays cannot survive paying premium prices for talent. However, the team faces a dearth of internal talent at first base. Looking beyond 2011, the Rays appear likely to face another offseason struggle at first base, looking again for diamonds in the rough.

In 2007, the team lucked into Carlos Pena, who played the first bag for several solid seasons. This year, the team got Casey Kotchman, who has played well early, but has been undeniably lucky. Moreover, it appears Kotchman's contract, which initially started as a minor league contract, is done after this year (anyone please chime in if you know more).

A strong season from Kotchman -- like what he has had thus far -- would result in a strong free agent contract (upwards of $5M, but maybe less than $12M). If Kotchman struggles through the end of the season, then he will not command the market, but also would not be the long term solution at first. Either way, Kotchman in 2012 seems unlikely.

Star-divide

The Rays also have Dan Johnson, who has lost nearly all his playing time to the hot-hitting Kotchman of late. Johnson, already 31 years old, has the opposite problems of Kotchman. Kotch is 28 right now, but has a terminating contract; Johnson has a favorable contract (he's under team control for the next two years), but is likely well past his prime -- on top of not being really cold right now.

So let's explore some of the options.

  • Extend Kotchman: The Rays could try to get Kotch to sign a team-friendly extension if they think the present incarnation is the real deal. This could possibly head-off the payday he might otherwise get in the free agent market. Who knows? Kotchman is from Tampa Bay, maybe he's willing to spend a year or two on the cheap in his home state?

    Of course, this necessitates a strong season from Kotchman. As I've noted above, he's playing above his head right now. When he normalizes, the Rays will know what they really have on their hands. Hopefully it will be a solid, all-around first baseman.
  • Go with DanJo: Dan Johnson is earning $1M this season, and after being relegated to the LHP platoon role, it seems unlikely he'd get a significant raise in his Arb 2 season. That means he might start earning $2M or so next year, but it seems unlikely he'd be making anything near Kotchman's salary.

    Nonetheless, the contract's not the issue; the performance is. If DanJo cannot get hot at some point this season (and if he cannot get playing time, it is hard to imagine how he could get hot), then the Rays may just cut ties with him altogether.
  • Dumpster Dive: The Rays could again look for some free agent first base talent in the 2011 off season. Of course, I kind of feel like we have said that about our DH position every year since 2008. It is not as easy as saying: Let's go get a zombie first baseman!

    The truth is every other team in the league is planning the same or similar designs. This year, we finally got our zombie DH (Manny Ramirez, peace be upon him), but still could not wrangle the likes of Russell Branyan or Jim Thome. And even when we do sign the big name we want, sometimes it turns out to be Pat Burrell.

    Maybe the Rays get lucky and find Carlos Pena 2.0 -- a cheap first baseman who plays like a perennial All-Star. Casey Kotchman has been a great find, but no certainly Pena. No matter what, though, this path is more difficult than it seems.
  • Pilfer Triple-A: Just because a player is in Triple-A, it doesn't mean said player is Quad-A. There is a tedious balance between players who can torture only AAA pitchers, and high-quality players stuck in loaded franchises. Consider the case of recently demoted Kila Ka'aihue, who now hides behind Billy Butler and Eric Hosmer on the Royals DH/1B depth chart. Kila's little service time (his first arbitration year won't be until 2014) and relative youth (at 27 years, he's a few months younger than Kotch) make him a highly viable long term candidate for first.

    Also a possibility: The young Cuban Yonder Alonso sits firmly stuck in Triple-A behind the Reds' dominant first baseman Joey Votto. Yonder brings with him both the prestige and contract of a 7th overall draft pick, though, so prying him from the Reds might necessitate a higher price. Also, he already be earning $1.4M in 2012, so he's not the most cost effective 24-year-old.

    Nonetheless, options exist here.
So, what do you say? Which path should the Rays take? What other options do they have? Leslie Anderson is not admissible as an option.
Poll
The Rays need to...
Extend Kotchman.
118 votes
Go with DanJo.
10 votes
Dumpster Dive.
68 votes
Pilfer Triple-A.
107 votes
Other. (Explain in the comments.)
40 votes

343 votes | Poll has closed

Comment 182 comments  |  0 recs  | 

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Pilfer AA!

http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=rizzot001mat

/not at all influenced by the left-on-left HR I saw him hit in Trenton last night

Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com

by Imperialism32 on May 12, 2011 9:12 AM EDT reply actions  

25 year old in AA? What's the average age for players in AA?

Maddon's Mission
Make you want to kill him, then make you want to love him. Sly.

by Jonah Keri on Jun 19, 2010 10:31 PM EDT

by Doug09 on May 12, 2011 9:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

I was 99% joking

I’d probably dumpster dive, I guess. Maybe Nick Johnson.

Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com

by Imperialism32 on May 12, 2011 9:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think the Rays are going to have to trade for this one.

We don’t really have any in-house candidates for the job, and free agent first baseman aren’t exactly cheap. I’d love to see us work out some sort of deal with the Royals…maybe we can convince them a Kotchman for Kila deal is the way to go.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on May 12, 2011 9:18 AM EDT reply actions  

I agree, with the Rays farm system they should be able to make a trade for a young stud.

This post was written by a member of the DRaysBay community and does not necessarily express the views or opinions of DRaysBay staff.

by DeadeyeRR on May 12, 2011 9:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yup

Free agent first baseman are expensive or past their prime

I’d rather take my chances with Alonso and the Kila Monster in that order

by Jason Collette on May 12, 2011 9:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

Can he play 3B or COF? Is that where the Reds will try and put him or is he completely blocked by Votto?

Maddon's Mission
Make you want to kill him, then make you want to love him. Sly.

by Jonah Keri on Jun 19, 2010 10:31 PM EDT

by Doug09 on May 12, 2011 9:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

No.....Alonso is a born 1B

Lacks the athleticism to play either. When they won’t move Gomes to Alonso can play in LF, that speaks volumes

by Jason Collette on May 12, 2011 9:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

check it

http://statcorner.com/batter.php?id=475174

look at that kS% — he has nothing left to prove in AAA and is in danger of plateauing if left down there all season.

by Jason Collette on May 12, 2011 9:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

Does the Dragon come to eat you?

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on May 12, 2011 9:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

No, it's much more sinister than that.

The Dragon orchestrates a massive conspiracy, taking one of my favorite heroes, stripping the city of all memory of him, and throwing him in the gutters where he looks up from his ragged life of darkness and unknown to see his squire, a man of higher station and lesser talent, sitting on the throne he once earned.

A DRaysBay and FanGraphs writer from Cubs Stats and Twitter @BradleyWoodrum

by BWoodrum on May 12, 2011 9:36 AM EDT up reply actions  

And to think, they looked so cute in your videos.

Damn the luck dragons.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on May 12, 2011 9:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

Com Autum and the Brewing of Pumpkin Ale

He’ll rise again. Not worried. He’s just seasonal.

by Whelk on May 12, 2011 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

How long have you chased the dragon?

@SandyKazmir
Yes I've only been a fan since 2009. You got me.
by blackraven on May 5, 2011 3:46 PM EDT

by Sandy Kazmir on May 12, 2011 9:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

Here is a good antivenom

for BABIP. At casinos they have a game called roulette.It is a game of luck.Next to the wheel they have a display that updates itself on how many times the ball hits red or black.The casino put up that board for a reason and it wasn;t to help you win the game. BABIP is a stat that has it’s place , but I would not lean on it to heavily.
I think the Kotch contract will be addressed later in the year ,when more statistical information is available. As far as I’m concerned I think Kotch owes the rays a big discount for what they have done for him.

by Landlord on May 12, 2011 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

So you're saying that the Gambler's Fallacy is true?

And that we should expect Kotchman to revert to his career norms going forward? Got it.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on May 12, 2011 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

lol, I was about to post this in a less snarky way

Basically you wouldnt expect Kotch to BABIP .000 to offset his hot streak. You’d expect whatever his true talent level is going forward. Regression 101

Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla

by FreeZorilla on May 12, 2011 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

Exactly, but there's a very real possibility that he experiences bad luck going forward

You wouldn’t expect it, but it’s a likely outcome.

@SandyKazmir
Yes I've only been a fan since 2009. You got me.
by blackraven on May 5, 2011 3:46 PM EDT

by Sandy Kazmir on May 12, 2011 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

Shields ERA is currently over 2 full runs below his career norm

His strand rate is 15% higher. He has always battled the HR bug, and is nearly half his HR/9 career rate. Guys been lights out for sure, but teams will adjust to changes in his approach and his typically pedestrian fastball will stop being nearly as good as his change per 150 pitches.

Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla

by FreeZorilla on May 12, 2011 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

We're talking about Casey Kotchman, please try to stay on topic

@SandyKazmir
Yes I've only been a fan since 2009. You got me.
by blackraven on May 5, 2011 3:46 PM EDT

by Sandy Kazmir on May 12, 2011 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Good pt

May have to start mentioning Shields expected regression every time he has a good outing or inning now though.

Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla

by FreeZorilla on May 12, 2011 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

I hope you do

Pet peeve: When people say expected regression as if you could expect anything else. It’s a constant process. Even a guy that is hitting absolutely what you expect will go through regression the rest of the year even if the numbers remain unaltered.

@SandyKazmir
Yes I've only been a fan since 2009. You got me.
by blackraven on May 5, 2011 3:46 PM EDT

by Sandy Kazmir on May 12, 2011 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Seriously, who would say something like this
If Shields continues to pitch like this then it’s a no brainer to pick up his options of 7, 9, and 12M over the next 3 years Him at 7 and 9 are still valuable and they would still be able to move him down the line

Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla

by FreeZorilla on May 12, 2011 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

When I say "this" I mean the last 3-4 years, stop being so literal.

@SandyKazmir
Yes I've only been a fan since 2009. You got me.
by blackraven on May 5, 2011 3:46 PM EDT

by Sandy Kazmir on May 12, 2011 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sorry for not wanting to use the same word twice in two sentences

@SandyKazmir
Yes I've only been a fan since 2009. You got me.
by blackraven on May 5, 2011 3:46 PM EDT

by Sandy Kazmir on May 12, 2011 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

Words are on a sliding scale, they are not black and white

Possible and likely are not all that different

@SandyKazmir
Yes I've only been a fan since 2009. You got me.
by blackraven on May 5, 2011 3:46 PM EDT

by Sandy Kazmir on May 12, 2011 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Um... I think you've pretty much proved my BABIP point.

Dan Johnson is the black, Kotchman is the red. The roulette has landed on red 36 times in a row. From this point forward, I do not assume the next 36 will be on black, but that it will be 18-18, or a return to career rates.

And if it comes to returning to career rates, then Johnson has the edge with the bat, Kotchman has the edge with the glove — kind like it was before the season.

A DRaysBay and FanGraphs writer from Cubs Stats and Twitter @BradleyWoodrum

by BWoodrum on May 12, 2011 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think part of the problem with forecasting Johnson and Kotchman is the reliance on career rates

These guys do not have clean sample sizes to compare. Johnson has been in AAA and Japan, and his cameo last year was held afloat by a monster BB% and drowned by a poor BABIP. The error term in forecasting his ‘career rate’ is therefore huge. Kotchman is a bit cleaner, but even still he did have a pretty solid year, and the past couple have been influenced by trades and illness. Not as murky as Johnson, but not as clean as you’d like.

The error term was definitely a bit higher than normal with these guys. It isn’t like they had a 7 year clean and healthy major league track record.

For the record I was on the Johnson side, and still am. However, I’m leaning towards that they both aren’t very good.

I thank Draysbay for proving that Loose Change fanatics exist in mainstream America, and more importantly for Chik-fil-A spicy chicken recommendations. My life is forever changed

by matthan on May 12, 2011 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

It means exactly that

He has been dealt multiple times and thrown in multiple roles. Sure on a league wide aggreggate level that type of stuff has no performance impact, but it definitely can from an individual standpoint. I’m not saying that is the case, but rather his history isn’t as clean as you’d like. Hence the error of the forecast is larger.

I thank Draysbay for proving that Loose Change fanatics exist in mainstream America, and more importantly for Chik-fil-A spicy chicken recommendations. My life is forever changed

by matthan on May 12, 2011 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

You have it all wrong with the casino

Posting the previous spins does not help nor hurt the casino. Whether or not a certain number has come a lot in the past has no influence on whether it’ll come up again. Each spin is totally independent and the odds are the exact same for each spin.

I thank Draysbay for proving that Loose Change fanatics exist in mainstream America, and more importantly for Chik-fil-A spicy chicken recommendations. My life is forever changed

by matthan on May 12, 2011 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

It helps the casino because people are stupid?

“BLACK FIVE TIMES IN A ROW? HU4ROLLZ ON RED!”

Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com

by Imperialism32 on May 12, 2011 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

The motivation for their bet is stupid, but the odds are the same whether they put it on red or black.

I thank Draysbay for proving that Loose Change fanatics exist in mainstream America, and more importantly for Chik-fil-A spicy chicken recommendations. My life is forever changed

by matthan on May 12, 2011 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

Right

But I’m saying it helps the casino because posting past numbers helps encourage people to bet (more). As you may know, the house tends to have an edge.

Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com

by Imperialism32 on May 12, 2011 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions  

I didn't realize that your point that it encouraged people to bet more. I thought the point was that the gambler would bet for or against the trend.

I thank Draysbay for proving that Loose Change fanatics exist in mainstream America, and more importantly for Chik-fil-A spicy chicken recommendations. My life is forever changed

by matthan on May 12, 2011 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

They will, but yeah, that was my point

It makes the bettor think there’s better than a 50/50 chance (really 47ish/47ish with 0 and 00) when of course there isn’t. Anything that causes people to bet irrationally is good for the casino.

Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com

by Imperialism32 on May 12, 2011 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yep, it just may encourage more action

Thats all the casino cares. They don’t care where you place your money.

Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla

by FreeZorilla on May 12, 2011 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

Basically as Steve pointed out it is the gambler's falacy

We shouldn’t mistake that for regression.

I thank Draysbay for proving that Loose Change fanatics exist in mainstream America, and more importantly for Chik-fil-A spicy chicken recommendations. My life is forever changed

by matthan on May 12, 2011 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions  

And its not 50-50 or the casion wouldn't make money

Can’t forget the green 0s

Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla

by FreeZorilla on May 12, 2011 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

Anyone who voted for extending Kotch should be immediately perma banned.

This post was written by a member of the DRaysBay community and does not necessarily express the views or opinions of DRaysBay staff.

by DeadeyeRR on May 12, 2011 9:20 AM EDT reply actions  

If Kotchman continues to be hot at the plate (and thereby break every known law of BABIP) then why not extend him?

He’s only 28 and can field like the world’s most interesting man.

It’s just really, REALLY unlikely he continues to hit like this without some sort of adjustment.

A DRaysBay and FanGraphs writer from Cubs Stats and Twitter @BradleyWoodrum

by BWoodrum on May 12, 2011 9:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, that's not a bad contract. Even if he reverts to 1 WAR ways (all defense, no bat), that is still acceptable.

It’s certainly not optimal, though. I’d rather we get Kila and have a potential killer at first.

A DRaysBay and FanGraphs writer from Cubs Stats and Twitter @BradleyWoodrum

by BWoodrum on May 12, 2011 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

How far away is Sale? 2-3 years?

Does anyone really see him sticking in the OF

by jlmccal2 on May 12, 2011 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, he'll be a COF/1B type, but I have no idea on the time table as he's yet to play a game almost a year from the draft

@SandyKazmir
Yes I've only been a fan since 2009. You got me.
by blackraven on May 5, 2011 3:46 PM EDT

by Sandy Kazmir on May 12, 2011 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, extending him to a team-friendly contract isn't much of a risk

I know Kotch will never be a slugger. But it is certainly possible that he is blossoming into a Mark Grace/Sean Casey type of guy.

Still, I’d like to see a little more.

by nomoredevil on May 12, 2011 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

Probably

That’s why I’d like more time. But Carlos Pena was in much the same boat (albeit with a different skillset) when he got here – a once-highly-touted prospect that hadn’t put it all together. I’m just making a comparison that if Kotch has finally put it together, we shouldn’t be comparing him to first base sluggers. We should be comparing him to good hitting/fielding first baseman with marginal power — like Grace & Casey.

by nomoredevil on May 12, 2011 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wasn't Kotch a good hitting prospect?

Hasn’t he put up at least a good average throughout the minors? If things have ‘clicked’ for him at last, than I don’t think good hitting/fielding is being overly optimistic. It’s what you would have expected from him when he was drafted.

Thinking that things have finally ‘clicked’ is no doubt optimistic. But I’m a baseball fan; it’s what I do.

by nomoredevil on May 12, 2011 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Who am I describing...?

-Former top prospect.
-Had 1 great year in 2007 followed by 3 disappointing seasons.
-Can produce 1-2 WAR from defense alone.
-Causes very polarized sentiment amongst Rays fans.

BJ Upton.

by Borbes on May 13, 2011 3:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

Difference:

Upton’s plays a premium defensive position and his “disappointing” years were still around the 3-4 WAR level.

Kotchman plays 1B (not a premium defensive position) and hasn’t topped 2 WAR since 2007. Last year, he had -1.1 WAR, actually.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on May 13, 2011 8:00 AM EDT up reply actions  

But expactation for BJ are still that of his 2007 year.

Every year we talk about how BJ is under performing and make excuses for him. I am one of these. I think when a player of his pedigree has a great season at a young age, that has to be considered his true talent level. A full season is too large of a sample size to ignore. If their performance significantly drops despite being more experienced and at a more optimal age, there has to be a mental or mechanic issue causing it. These things can be fixed. If BJ started raking, we would all assume BJ was back to where he should be, instead of playing over his head.

I feel the same away about Kotchman. A player of his pedigree who had a great season at a young age doesn’t just fall off like he did without there being an outlying cause. Kotchman’s off-the-field issues have been documented here as well as his mechanical degradation (especially in Seattle). So why now when his swing looks better, in a much healthier mental state, and at his prime physical age are we not putting his true talent level at his 2007 numbers like we would if it were BJ?

by Borbes on May 13, 2011 5:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Don't forget that he was an Angels minor leaguer

He’s not the only ex-Angel in the last 5-6 years to bat for a high average in the minors and then underperform in the ML. Offense-inflating parks, homie.

by XrayYankeeZulu on May 13, 2011 12:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

Ban me.

RaysRev.com or m_weber on twitter

by Rays_Rev on May 12, 2011 10:02 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

I was just looking at his b-ref minors page, looks good.

We’ve been talking about Alonso for a few years now, just get it done and trade for him.

Maddon's Mission
Make you want to kill him, then make you want to love him. Sly.

by Jonah Keri on Jun 19, 2010 10:31 PM EDT

by Doug09 on May 12, 2011 9:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

I haven't seen him hug AF yet though

This post was written by a member of the DRaysBay community and does not necessarily express the views or opinions of DRaysBay staff.

by DeadeyeRR on May 12, 2011 9:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

Extra 2%

This post was written by a member of the DRaysBay community and does not necessarily express the views or opinions of DRaysBay staff.

by DeadeyeRR on May 12, 2011 9:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

Seeing that the calender reads May 12, and we've played but 36 games, aren't we a bit ahead of ourselves?

I doubt seriously if Friedman has given 1B and the ’12 season in that regard much if any thought

follow me on twitter @sternfan10

by sternfan1 on May 12, 2011 9:48 AM EDT reply actions  

Um

There was a rather vocal group complaining the Rays are stuck with “this mess at 1B” back in Feb/March because they didn’t plan far enough ahead. Therefore, I don’t think there is anything wrong with doing this now, especially because there is nothing in the system that is ready to come up and play 1B next year.

by Jason Collette on May 12, 2011 9:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

They're wrong. The plan by AF was Dan Jo at 1B

Kotchman was signed as insurance as was Carter. AF thought Dan Jo could hit 20 HR, he was wrong and we went to the back up and he’s been a dream

follow me on twitter @sternfan10

by sternfan1 on May 12, 2011 9:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'll believe what DanJo can and can't do after another month or two. As Collette mentioned, April is his worst month. Generally I don't put much stock in monthly splits

but I’ve seen plenty of guys that legitimately take a month to get it going to believe that it’s a thing. The way we’ve played so far without much 1B production would be taken up another notch if we can get more out of the spot.

@SandyKazmir
Yes I've only been a fan since 2009. You got me.
by blackraven on May 5, 2011 3:46 PM EDT

by Sandy Kazmir on May 12, 2011 9:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

Hey, since we're playing small sample sizes...

DanJo – 142.1 IP played, Range Factor/9 of 9.7
Kotch – 183.1 IP played, Range Factor of 9.2

Take Rtot/yr which takes total fielding runs thus far and takes it over 1200 innings (large sample size)

DanJo worth 16 runs (12 at 1st, 4 at 3rd)
Kotchman worth 9 runs

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/TBR/2011-fielding.shtml

There’s a lot to trash DanJo on so far, his defense (outside of the bad DP throw in Toronto) is not one of them. It’s been better than most thought it would be when he’s been out there.

by Jason Collette on May 12, 2011 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

You're talking to a wall with all of these good points

@SandyKazmir
Yes I've only been a fan since 2009. You got me.
by blackraven on May 5, 2011 3:46 PM EDT

by Sandy Kazmir on May 12, 2011 10:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

No comment

@SandyKazmir
Yes I've only been a fan since 2009. You got me.
by blackraven on May 5, 2011 3:46 PM EDT

by Sandy Kazmir on May 12, 2011 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

Dan has been fine at 1st, but Kotchman is definitely otherwordly there.

Either way, neither is a solution.

I thank Draysbay for proving that Loose Change fanatics exist in mainstream America, and more importantly for Chik-fil-A spicy chicken recommendations. My life is forever changed

by matthan on May 12, 2011 10:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

Otherworldly?

Longo at 3rd is otherworldly, Crawford in left is otherworldly.

I have a hard time giving a 1B that much credit when there’s perhaps 7 other players on the team who could do his job better with a little practice. Kotchman has made some very good plays, but he’s still a first baseman.

by Whelk on May 12, 2011 10:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

you're too dumb for words

where are my gifs? is this a new thread? you guys are litl fucking sluts. uck you guys. i bet you guys tmpons in the womines bathromms and pay 75 cents for each ne. fuck you

by daveh33 on Sep 3, 2010 11:09 PM EDT reply actions

by PriceMultiCyYoungs on May 12, 2011 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

Kotch is otherworldly at 1B. That doesn't mean it adds much value

You can be dynamite at something, and still have it be relatively pointless.

I thank Draysbay for proving that Loose Change fanatics exist in mainstream America, and more importantly for Chik-fil-A spicy chicken recommendations. My life is forever changed

by matthan on May 12, 2011 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

Pointless Argument

But I think this is akin to me saying that I was otherworldly at tic tac toe in second grade because I figured out how to never lose before my peers did.

It was cool, but there’s a ceiling. If the fifth graders played, I’d have ceased to look special.

by Whelk on May 12, 2011 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

I don't think Kotchman playing great defense is pointless

I thank Draysbay for proving that Loose Change fanatics exist in mainstream America, and more importantly for Chik-fil-A spicy chicken recommendations. My life is forever changed

by matthan on May 12, 2011 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

Kotch is Interesting

In that he plays very good first base defense (arguably outstanding) but can’t play anywhere else. It’s okay for 1B to be judged on a sliding scale because they hit like 1B, but if he stops doing so his defense becomes just a curiosity, not an optimization.

For instance, I bet Zobrist can equal or outperform Kotchman at 1B defense. If Joyce can outhit Kotch versus LHP, then Rodriguez at 2nd and Zobrist at 1st will probably give us better overall production, and render Kotchman’s outstanding 1B defense pointless.

by Whelk on May 12, 2011 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

Eh, Kotchman has played the position his whole life

It doesn’t require the most range, but there 1B skills unique to the position that are not range related. He happens to be very good at these skills.

Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla

by FreeZorilla on May 12, 2011 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

He's excellent at those skills.

I’m of the opinion that you take a former SS that has great hands, and he can develop them. Look at most 1B. They’re behemoths without a ton of athleticism that make the slicky boys look taht much better.

by rglass44 on May 12, 2011 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

I agree on Zobrist.

But a midget 2B may not make a great 1B

Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla

by FreeZorilla on May 12, 2011 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Dear Mr Collette

If I am not mistaken, I believe Danjo has an error on a dropped throw from John Jaso on a put out at first to add to his defense performance.

by Landlord on May 12, 2011 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well said

@SandyKazmir
Yes I've only been a fan since 2009. You got me.
by blackraven on May 5, 2011 3:46 PM EDT

by Sandy Kazmir on May 12, 2011 9:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

To expand on my point above, i bet many teams have a position or two

that at this point have no one to man come ‘12. And i doubt whether it’s a real concern on May 12

follow me on twitter @sternfan10

by sternfan1 on May 12, 2011 9:56 AM EDT reply actions  

4 yrs younger

Plus, he’s totally blocked in KC so the price tag should be lower

by Jason Collette on May 12, 2011 10:14 AM EDT up reply actions  

Should be, and I may just be jaded, but small market clubs seem to hold onto their prospects for dear life.

I wouldn’t be shocked if Butler is the one that goes once the Royals fade from contention.

I thank Draysbay for proving that Loose Change fanatics exist in mainstream America, and more importantly for Chik-fil-A spicy chicken recommendations. My life is forever changed

by matthan on May 12, 2011 10:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'd love to have Butler

Beej for Billy Ray Butler, straight motha f’n up

@SandyKazmir
Yes I've only been a fan since 2009. You got me.
by blackraven on May 5, 2011 3:46 PM EDT

by Sandy Kazmir on May 12, 2011 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

It makes sense

I’d feel bad banishing BJ to Kansas City though.

I thank Draysbay for proving that Loose Change fanatics exist in mainstream America, and more importantly for Chik-fil-A spicy chicken recommendations. My life is forever changed

by matthan on May 12, 2011 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'm not sure if they would take a year and maybe some change for 4 years of Butler though I think it fills needs for both teams

Their payroll is so low going into next year and will be for several more with all the young bucks that you’d think they could get him to a 4 year deal that wouldn’t restrict them from doing other things

@SandyKazmir
Yes I've only been a fan since 2009. You got me.
by blackraven on May 5, 2011 3:46 PM EDT

by Sandy Kazmir on May 12, 2011 10:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

We'd probably have to toss something else in

My fear is they’ll deal Butler during this year, and we shouldn’t trade BJ until after the season. I mean granted we’d probably be a better team with Jenning CF, Guyer LF, Butler 1B than our current set up, but trading such an integral piece of the team seems real risky during the year.

How is Butler at first?

I thank Draysbay for proving that Loose Change fanatics exist in mainstream America, and more importantly for Chik-fil-A spicy chicken recommendations. My life is forever changed

by matthan on May 12, 2011 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

Not great which is why it makes sense for them to slide him to DH and try to deal Kila and Robinson instead

@SandyKazmir
Yes I've only been a fan since 2009. You got me.
by blackraven on May 5, 2011 3:46 PM EDT

by Sandy Kazmir on May 12, 2011 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

They liked Lorenzo Cain enough to targt him in the Brewers deal.

He’s in AAA now and hitting quite well after a mini-breakout last year after an injured 2009. Eibner is probably a RF, but now that Myers is slotted there he’s a better fit in CF (at least at first). Eibner probs shouldn’t be included, but between Gordon, Myers, Cain, Eibner, and I guess Dyson they have OF depth. Is Beej an upgrade? Probably, but he’s also a FA by the time they’ll be pushing for the playoffs.

by rglass44 on May 12, 2011 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions  

HE'S NOT A FREE AGENT NOW

I forgot about Cain, my knowledge is limited on him, but he sounds like a defense-first kind of guy. Dyson is probably the only better defender and Myers, maybe Gordon, are the only better bats though neither can play CF. Like I said, I don’t think they do the deal if they can’t resign him, but they have the money considering they can roll all league min rookies out there at virtually every other position

@SandyKazmir
Yes I've only been a fan since 2009. You got me.
by blackraven on May 5, 2011 3:46 PM EDT

by Sandy Kazmir on May 12, 2011 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

Fair enough, as I mentioned he slipped my mind

@SandyKazmir
Yes I've only been a fan since 2009. You got me.
by blackraven on May 5, 2011 3:46 PM EDT

by Sandy Kazmir on May 12, 2011 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

Understandable.

He’s left off all the team lists because he was part of the Grienke trade.

by rglass44 on May 12, 2011 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

Also, Beej doesn't strike me as a Moore guy (which is absolutely a good thing).

It would make sense for them I agree. It just doesn’t seem like something they’d do (if that makes any sense).

by rglass44 on May 12, 2011 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

No it does, they seem to like high contact guys

@SandyKazmir
Yes I've only been a fan since 2009. You got me.
by blackraven on May 5, 2011 3:46 PM EDT

by Sandy Kazmir on May 12, 2011 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

Everyone is a racist

love it love it love it
i hate one person more than Pap smear—his name is bin laden
by sternfan1 on Aug 12, 2010 3:33 PM EDT

by SRQman on May 12, 2011 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is a shot in the dark

but depending on how Chirinos is progressing as a catcher, I wonder if he could be moved to first. Let him focus more on hitting. I know there are not too many other catching options in the minors, and Jaso is probably not the long term solution, but I’d rather have a light hitting catcher that knows how to catch and call a game than have a light hitting first baseman (assuming Chirinos’ power returns).

by E-Bagger on May 12, 2011 10:05 AM EDT reply actions  

I don't think his bat can carry at 1B

love it love it love it
i hate one person more than Pap smear—his name is bin laden
by sternfan1 on Aug 12, 2010 3:33 PM EDT

by SRQman on May 12, 2011 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Alonso would be ideal, but the asking price may be too steep

I do think we can get by with drafting a college 1B and hopefully developing him.

In the mean time keep Damon around for another year or two. He should be decent for at least another year, and 2013 could be his 3000 hit parade (which I don’t really care for), but he can man 1st base on many a night. Then you can DH him occassionary and use Ben or SRod there as well. Not the ideal solution, but cheaper than trying to overpay for a 1B bat and we wouldn’t have to give up any prospects.

I thank Draysbay for proving that Loose Change fanatics exist in mainstream America, and more importantly for Chik-fil-A spicy chicken recommendations. My life is forever changed

by matthan on May 12, 2011 10:22 AM EDT reply actions  

I'd honestly want Damon at 1st THIS year in a few months

Then rotate as DH: Guyer, Joyce, Srod, etc.

Sure we’d be wasting a good defender as a DH, but the key is maximizing the entire team and not individual players. I think we’d be better as a team with Jennings in left, Guyer at DH, and Damon at 1st than we will be with Jennings in left, Kotchman at 1b, and Damon at DH.

I thank Draysbay for proving that Loose Change fanatics exist in mainstream America, and more importantly for Chik-fil-A spicy chicken recommendations. My life is forever changed

by matthan on May 12, 2011 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

That sounds pretty good to me

@SandyKazmir
Yes I've only been a fan since 2009. You got me.
by blackraven on May 5, 2011 3:46 PM EDT

by Sandy Kazmir on May 12, 2011 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

Guyer at first?

www.espn1040.com, www.theprocessreport.com, www.bloombergsports.com Twitter @trancel

by Tommy Rancel on May 12, 2011 10:33 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

No, Damon.

Guyer at DH occassionally. Not the best use of his talents, but its a short-term stopgap. Not much difference than Price in the pen back in 2008.

I thank Draysbay for proving that Loose Change fanatics exist in mainstream America, and more importantly for Chik-fil-A spicy chicken recommendations. My life is forever changed

by matthan on May 12, 2011 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

Kyle Blanks

Blanks is blocked at first, or soon will be by Rizzo. I’d think he would be available.

Paul Goldschmidt, might not quite be MLB ready, but by next year should be. He’s got Brandon Allen in front of him, so he’s kind of blocked there.

I’d think these guys would have to be cheaper than Alonso in terms of players we would have to give up.

by spidurfan on May 12, 2011 10:40 AM EDT reply actions  

The Rays longterm 1B is not currently in the org

In my opinion at least. I’m expecting a trade of some sorts that (hopefully) addresses the positon. Shields/BJ are likely to go at some point based on the philosophy of the organization. I could see the F.O. targeting a first baseman in return.

Also, 28% of the voters want Kotch extended. After a month? I doubt there will be much of a market for him. Why not let it play out first?

by MikeB. on May 12, 2011 11:15 AM EDT reply actions  

If Shields continues to pitch like this then it's a no brainer to pick up his options of 7, 9, and 12M over the next 3 years

Him at 7 and 9 are still valuable and they would still be able to move him down the line

@SandyKazmir
Yes I've only been a fan since 2009. You got me.
by blackraven on May 5, 2011 3:46 PM EDT

by Sandy Kazmir on May 12, 2011 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

Oh I agree

I would prefer to hold onto Shields. At those figures he remains quite valuable. I’m just trying to think in terms of what the F.O. might do to maximize value. 3.5 years left (with options) at the height of his value (he’s pitching incredible) would most likely net the biggest return. What if 2010 Shields returns?

by MikeB. on May 12, 2011 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

I wouldn't expect him to keep pitching like this

Not as outlandish as Kotch, but regression and such

Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla

by FreeZorilla on May 12, 2011 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

Right, as I've stated a million times I'd expect his 2009 to be essentially what to expect going into any season

2008 was a bit better, 2010 much worse, 2011 about even with 2008 so far, but he was looking about the same at this point last year.

@SandyKazmir
Yes I've only been a fan since 2009. You got me.
by blackraven on May 5, 2011 3:46 PM EDT

by Sandy Kazmir on May 12, 2011 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

How about Chris Davis?

Once Hamilton and Cruz come back he’ll be burried in Texas and likely sent back to AAA. I would imagine the asking price would not be too high. We need another power threat in the lineup
Bring Jennings up after the super 2 date and get a good look at how he handles the majors. I think it will help the 2011 team as well as getting a feel for 2012 and beyond.

by TheGrinch on May 12, 2011 11:26 AM EDT reply actions  

Yessir

For the power, more than anything. We lived with the boom and bust cycles of Pena for the past 2 years, the same can be done with Davis.

by Jason Collette on May 12, 2011 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

Okay, I'm alright with using BW to refer to Buc Wild,

but if you’re going to start using my initials for banwagon I will have to file a cease and desist order.

A DRaysBay and FanGraphs writer from Cubs Stats and Twitter @BradleyWoodrum

by BWoodrum on May 12, 2011 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

Another possibility

Clint Robinson KC, been crushing the ball, not sure how bad the ‘D’ is as he’s been a DH—Hosmer is a good glove so it may have been due to that, but this guy is now 26 years old and blocked by Hosmer, Butler and to an extent Kila. Not sure why he’s never been high on prospect lists.

http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?pos=DH&sid=t541&t=p_pbp&pid=519208

by TheGrinch on May 12, 2011 11:48 AM EDT reply actions  

Jeff Sullivan mentioned him yesterday as being equivalent to Kila as far as what it would take to get him.

I’m a bit ignorant on the guy so thanks for the link.

@SandyKazmir
Yes I've only been a fan since 2009. You got me.
by blackraven on May 5, 2011 3:46 PM EDT

by Sandy Kazmir on May 12, 2011 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

1B

Try and draft C.J. Kron!!!!

by MarkFidrych on May 12, 2011 11:56 AM EDT reply actions  

KROOOOOOOON

love it love it love it
i hate one person more than Pap smear—his name is bin laden
by sternfan1 on Aug 12, 2010 3:33 PM EDT

by SRQman on May 12, 2011 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wonderful username.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on May 12, 2011 9:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't see why you would consider it

He won’t get big offers in the offseason and would likely accept a hometown discount. And thats if the Rays even had an interest.

Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla

by FreeZorilla on May 12, 2011 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Why dnt we trade for Chris Davis in Texas? He’s got a great glove, just needs to work on his bat, but I think if he got playing everyday that would improve. Down in Texas he rarely gets to play.

by Bobby Hodges on May 12, 2011 12:34 PM EDT reply actions  

You keep Kotch for a season or two

He can give you a decent bat and a solid glove and fill up the hole. As long as he isn’t asking for some crazy amount you keep him and with one of our draft picks we draft a solid College player who can play first and get him into the pros.

by MPDevils on May 12, 2011 12:39 PM EDT reply actions  

Russ Canzler?

Not a big fan with his swing but putting up ok numbers in AAA with a .390 OBP and hits RH. Not sure what his splits are but if he hits LHP well I’d be ok with giving him a shot.

by jcmitchell on May 12, 2011 4:00 PM EDT reply actions  

this won't be popular

But what about trading Matt Moore for a premium prospect bat? Just seems like a better allocation of resources to me.

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on May 12, 2011 4:52 PM EDT via mobile reply actions  

I think the Rays should trade

and hopefully don’t trade Jennings. I’m still really looking forward to seeing him. Aren’t the Royals insanely loaded right now? Would they even be interested in acquiring minor leaguers? I don’t know much about minor league trading and such.

by Tuffy11111 on May 12, 2011 6:20 PM EDT reply actions  

Depends on the match

Come the all-star break, alot will depend on the standings. If KC is still in the mix they may need a piece the Rays can afford to part with and visa-versa. Something along the line of Sonnanstine for Kila with either cash or a lesser prospect as balance depending on the respective contracts.KC needs someone to start as outside of Montgomery, I doubt any of their minor league starters will be ready to come up this year. The Rays, however should have MLB-ready pitching by then with Moore, Archer and Torres.

by TheGrinch on May 12, 2011 11:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

We're a slave for you, BABIP!

In lust,
A ridiculously large percentage of DRaysBayers

by zeng8r on May 12, 2011 11:39 PM EDT reply actions  

Try this:

Trade some pitching (a combination or maybe/if possible just one of Alex Torres, Chris Archer, Alex Colome) for Paul Goldschmidt (D’Backs have good depth at 1B and seek pitching) and sign Russel Branyan as well as Kila Ka’aihue in the offseason. Goldschmidt starts at AAA while Branyan gets a major league deal (2 mio.?) and Ka’aihue competes with Guyer, E. Johnson, … for a roster spot.

—> enough depth and Goldschmidt could be the future for years to come at 1B!

by BurGi on May 13, 2011 2:50 AM EDT reply actions  

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