Rays Bats Are Silenced Again In 6-3 Loss to Tigers
by Erik Hahmann on May 23, 2011 11:34 PM EDT
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PrintAfter James Shields picked up the team with his complete game shutout yesterday afternoon I hoped the positive energy may carry over to tonight. No such luck. The offense didn't score enough runs when it had the opportunities and the pitching imploded late in the game. It was as simple as that.
You all can find a regular recap of the game anywhere. Let's take a look at two situations that ended up costing the Rays dearly.
In the 6th inning with the score tied, Miguel Cabrera smacked a Jeremy Hellickson fastball into right filed. Matt Joyce throw it home in plenty of time, the ball meeting Kelly Shoppach's in front of the plate. The runner was a few steps in front of Shoppach, seemingly enough time for him to swing around and apply the tag. Instead, he froze for a second which was just enough time for Brendan Boesch to avoid the tag and slide home safely.
There are two issues here. One is the fact that Shoppach should have tagged him out. There's no question about that. The second is the decision to pitch to Miguel Cabrera with two outs and first base open. I know Victor Martinez hits behind Cabrera, and is excellent, but I would have rather made him beat you in that situation. Cabrera should get the Jose Bautista treatment whenever it's necessary. He's that good.
The second game changing situation came in the 8th inning with the score still 2-1. With two on and 1 out, and Miguel Cabrera again at the plate, Juan Cruz was called upon to relieve J.P. Howell. He ended up walking Cabrera to load the bases and then gave up a double and a single without recording an out to put the Rays in a huge hole. Shields had given the bullpen a day off the game before, so there shouldn't have been any restrictions regarding usage. At that point of a game I want either Joel Peralita or Kyle Farnsworth in the game. The at bats by Cabrera and Martinez were some of the highest leverage situations of the night. That is a spot Juan Cruz should not be pitching in unless absolutely necessary. It was rare bad bullpen usage by Joe Maddon in my opinion.
The Rays bats are struggling and a match up against Justin Verlander doesn't seem to be the ideal cure. Hopefully I'm wrong and they can take it down tomorrow.
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"Juan Cruz was called upon to relieve Hellickson"
I'm not sure if you're serious...If you are, the reasons are simple:
1) Dutton’s xBABIP has to be input by hand, so it takes a long time to calculate.
2) I do this for free.
by BWoodrum
IT'S WHAT MY SPREADSHEET SAID
Maddon's Mission
Make you want to kill him, then make you want to love him. Sly.
by Jonah Keri on Jun 19, 2010 10:31 PM EDT
Shoppach's defense is matching his offense
The play at home was reminiscent of his defense during game 5 of ALDS. Turning point for Rays especially with very little offense. Hellickson would have gone deeper into game and most likely Rays win. The Shop is only good for catching Shields. Otherwise let him be the back up.
Out of position and still should have had the guy easily. He completely froze.
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I am looking at Shop's
non tag in a different way.We are looking at the play from a different angle than Kelly is. Shop has it in his mind that this runner is about to mow him over.He has to watch the ball and prepare himself to get backstopped.The runner made a very good slide.Much better than the slide by E J. I think BA gave a bad spin to the play on tv.I would like to hear what Shop has to say.
That was not a contact avoidance issue
He should have had the baseline in front of him and let the ball come to him so the play was in front of him. The play ended up being off his 8 to 9:00 and he could’t turn around in time to make that tag the way he played that ball. Kevin Kennedy would have had a field day with that one
I'm not a fanboy, I'm an analyst
by Jason Collette on May 24, 2011 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions
SSS with very unreliable metrics
but Shoppach has been really good defensively in limited action this year. I dont think he is particularly good, but I dont think today is necessarily indicative of a larger defensive problem, at least not one we dont get with Jaso.
I'll try not to mention this again after this
With the way the Rays are forced to play their backup catcher, I would rather have someone with excellent defense behind the plate than attempt to platoon bats. Jaso’s awful defensively and Shoppach is average at best. We’d get better value with someone who can play better defense behind the plate and not really hit that well than having to run Shoppach out against righties half the time.
Proof Matthan admitted he was wrong: http://www.draysbay.com/2011/3/18/2058018/ottotd-for-3-18-2011-thursday-night-t-v#61697767
Jose Lobaton!!!
If John Jaso somehow strikes out, it means you didn’t do your job right as an umpire.
by raysrule44 on Jul 9, 2010 8:37 PM CDT
If Navarro didn't feel like he was so damn entitled, I'd say we should have kept him.
Proof Matthan admitted he was wrong: http://www.draysbay.com/2011/3/18/2058018/ottotd-for-3-18-2011-thursday-night-t-v#61697767
His glove is beyond-MLB ready
And his bat won’t develop much more. I don’t think he’d be much worse than a .600 OPS.
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Why him over Lobaton?
Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com
by Imperialism32 on May 24, 2011 10:02 AM EDT up reply actions
He's the better defender
but I think Lobaton/Jaso and Chirinos/Shoppach are the true “battles”. Don’t take my Ashley comments too seriously.
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by FreeZorilla on May 24, 2011 10:04 AM EDT up reply actions
Average-ish.
More agile than Jaso/Shop but not as much as Nevin/Lobaton. 31% CS this year, one passed ball. Lobaton is 35%/1 passed ball.
Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com
by Imperialism32 on May 24, 2011 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions
With Lonnie Chisenhall batting, passed ball by Jose Lobaton, Cord Phelps to 2nd.
So… make it 2 for him.
Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com
by Imperialism32 on May 24, 2011 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions
The worst part is that we don't HAVE to be this bad. Fucking service time bullshit.
The buntfense has to stop, as well. This isn’t pussybaby National League baseball. Square it up and knock the shit out of it. MAN’S GAME. RACK ME.
FAARRRRRRRRRT
@thekidpow
by PlayOnWords on May 24, 2011 12:21 AM EDT reply actions 2 recs
Juan Cruz has 15BB to 14K in 17.1IP
15BB is about what Shields(16) & Price(11) have given up as starters.
I’m including both uBB & iBB.
PIZZA?!?
think it's time to give up on him?
pretty much all of the relievers in Durham are doing great, and Corey Wade has been great in 27.1 innings thus far. I wouldn’t be upset with a Farnsworth/Peralta/Howell/Gomes/Ramos/Wade/Sonny bullpen. Hell, Wade has been going 2 innings per outing consistently so he and Ramos could make Sonny redundant and then maybe bring McGee back up or even Swindle to have a true LOOGY. Juan Cruz is getting tiring with his complete lack of control
He's always been wild, but 2 of his BBs have been IBBs
Guys coming off surgery. I’d stop using him in high lev for a spell, but let him find his groove. He’s not exactly bing hit hard, he’s just wild. He’d dominate Durham.
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+1
He always has been wild. His walks are a little up from his good years.
He isn’t K’ing 12/9 though, so….
Coming off surgery.....
If they signed him post-surgery they planned on giving him time. Not realistic to expect him to immediately be his old self. The pop up rate, low BABIP, and no HRs are positive indicators. I put more stock in these numbers for relievers.
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by FreeZorilla on May 24, 2011 10:05 AM EDT up reply actions
We can sit here and rail on the bullpen all day, and of course
it didn’t do the job last night.
All in all Rays pitchers gave out 7 free passes, and at least 2 of them scored in the brutal 8th inning.
But once again this offense is awful, and Maddon isn’t helping with his “match ups”. Playing Elliot Johnson, Sam Fuld, Kelly Shoppaach and Felipe Lopez all at the same time is a recipe for disaster. How can you keep Joyce and Kotchman on the bench and play that quartet of stiffs instead?
Also, with Longoria now in an extended slump, and Zobrist becoming more 2010 all over again, i see this team struggling to finish 500
follow me on twitter @sternfan10
"Playing Elliot Johnson, Sam Fuld, Kelly Shoppaach and Felipe Lopez all at the same time"
I hadn’t realized the magnitude of laugh-ability here until just now.
That’s an insanely bad situation.
If John Jaso somehow strikes out, it means you didn’t do your job right as an umpire.
by raysrule44 on Jul 9, 2010 8:37 PM CDT
Zobrist's wOBA is like .400
Calm it down
www.DRaysBay.com
by Erik Hahmann on May 24, 2011 8:11 AM EDT up reply actions
Whats wrong with Elliot?
Travels at 140,000 mph. Produces 500 megajoules of energy. Originates from the heavens.
According to sf1 last week (and the week before, and the week before) ANYONE was better than Briggy.
He was positively clamoring for someone to take Briggy’s spot. He got his wish (in a pretty crappy way-poor Reid) and now he’s still not happy.
The problem, as illustrated in the article above began with Shoppach. While he has looked okay defensively in limited action, he seems slower than last year. I know he’s got to stay on because he’s Shield’s personal “catcher” and as long as Shields is rocking, you can’t touch Shoppach. I’d probably only play him in Shield’s games, and bring up someone else (Lobaton, Chirinos, etc.) to fill the hole at catcher.
I have no idea why Lopez got the start over Kotch, and I’m not even a big Kotch fan. I think, much like they did with Fuld, that you always start the HOT guy over the NOT guy. In a best case scenario, as one guy is starting to cool off, another is heating up and they can be two ships passing in the night. We don’t live in a perfect world though, so I guess we should be prepared for the fact that having a constantly HOT lineup is not probable.
I have no problem sitting Kotch vs LHP, but it should be for Joyce not Lopez.
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I'm assuming that means Zobrist to 1B and Joyce in RF?
If so, totally on board with it. Bad Joyce vs LHP is still better than anything Flip is going to do
I'm not a fanboy, I'm an analyst
by Jason Collette on May 24, 2011 9:45 AM EDT up reply actions
Sure or S-Rod, whatever combo of 1B/2B the team feels better about
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More on the offense, and i use that word almost apologetically
In the last two games our lead off hitter has K’s SIX times—Beautiful
Last night when it was still a game we only had one true scoring opportunity, “cashing in” for one run on a sac fly. In case you missed the game and thought they faced King Felix or Jon Lester or some other brand name, you’d be wrong. This hopeless bunch got shut down by two guys named Coke and Furbush—LOVELY
follow me on twitter @sternfan10
Coke in my furbush drives the ladies crazy.
If John Jaso somehow strikes out, it means you didn’t do your job right as an umpire.
by raysrule44 on Jul 9, 2010 8:37 PM CDT
Since drafting Delmon Young a 1/1 and Evan Longoria a 1/3, two no brainers
name me one draft pick, drafted by Friedman & Co who’s made an impact on this offense
follow me on twitter @sternfan10
Longo wasn't a no-brainer.
I remember a lot of people hated taking “the next Joe Randa.”
If John Jaso somehow strikes out, it means you didn’t do your job right as an umpire.
by raysrule44 on Jul 9, 2010 8:37 PM CDT
Not the point at all
In 5 years of drafting, only Desmond Jennings is on the threshold of a MLB career at this point
follow me on twitter @sternfan10
And how about all those pitchers? They're just thrown out? Let's remember that SP is still our strong point this season and is what is winning our games for us.
by DaPriceIsRight on May 24, 2011 7:41 AM EDT up reply actions
Over that same time
Name me a New York/Boston player who fits that mold, and I’ll even let you expand your search to include starting pitchers. If you were to look at the entire AL East over that time, Wieters would be the only guy who fit that bill. NEWSFLASH: hitters take time to develop.
by GomesSweetGomes on May 24, 2011 8:41 AM EDT up reply actions
The Red Sox at least drafted Anthony Rizzo to include in a trade for A-Gon
Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com
by Imperialism32 on May 24, 2011 8:45 AM EDT up reply actions
Not if we keep moving toward this pitching-heavy era
Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com
by Imperialism32 on May 24, 2011 9:35 AM EDT up reply actions
Why not?
What you may see if there is a lg wide power drought is teams moving away from 3 TO guys. The spray hitters may catch up.
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
Do you have anything to compare that to?
I understand that doesn’t seem like much, but how many teams have a successful “homegrown” offense? And of those teams, how many have a pitching staff/depth comparable to ours?
If John Jaso somehow strikes out, it means you didn’t do your job right as an umpire.
by raysrule44 on Jul 9, 2010 8:37 PM CDT
And Young was drafted like two years before the current FO took over.
If John Jaso somehow strikes out, it means you didn’t do your job right as an umpire.
by raysrule44 on Jul 9, 2010 8:37 PM CDT
i think DY was a '05 pick, and Friedman took over for the '06 draft
so thanks, you’re making my case stronger
follow me on twitter @sternfan10
Young was '03.
No problem, you’re just making yourself look less and less informed.
If John Jaso somehow strikes out, it means you didn’t do your job right as an umpire.
by raysrule44 on Jul 9, 2010 8:37 PM CDT
i can easily find DY's draft year
the point i’m making and no one has successfully debated it, is this FO has now drafted but one impact bat in 5 years, and only has Jennings at the AAA level showing promise
follow me on twitter @sternfan10
they also haven't spent the high draft picks on offense
with the only exception being beckham and washington (who didnt sign)
They've had five drafts since taking over
IN the first round they have selected:
Townsend – bust
Longoria – ROY
Price – Ace
Washington – didn’t sign
Sale/vettleson – haven’t played yet
That’s one bust, one ROY, and one Ace, and two who haven’t played yet.
Also Beckham
Not saying he’s a bust because he will probably play some major league ball in his career, just not at as high of a level as we hoped.
Rays drafted Ike Davis in 2005
He’s a pretty good offensive player
Couple points, I guess.
1) The organization has focused most of their top picks in the draft to pitchers, up until the previous two years. Lots of the big impact bats they’ve drafted are still in the low minors (Josh Sale, etc).
2) You’re also ignoring the fact that they’ve traded for impact bats and then developed them in the high minors – Matt Joyce, S-Rod, Chirinos, Guyer, etc. That’s still good talent evaluation.
3) I’m just waiting for this to develop into a TBex/Posey subthread.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow
by Steve Slowinski on May 24, 2011 8:11 AM EDT up reply actions
I'll concede the fact that the FO has drafted more impact arms than impact bats.
If you concede the fact that regardless of the lack of offensive prospects, the FO has put together the second best farm system in baseball.
If you’re going to hit or miss on one or the other, I’d rather hit on pitching all day long. And that’s exactly what they’ve done.
If John Jaso somehow strikes out, it means you didn’t do your job right as an umpire.
by raysrule44 on Jul 9, 2010 8:37 PM CDT
I agree an impact bat is sorely needed
but this FO has done a great job and organizing this team to compete in this division under a shitty budget. If you want to compete with this low budget, you need to stock up on young quality arms. Pitching and defense wins games. And along the way you flip a pitcher or 2 to get some young bats in return. Maybe they haven’t gotten the best return as far as impact bats go, but I wouldn’t really criticize their drafting skills. We are pitching rich and other teams covet that.
Wait, were they there for BJ and Delmon?
I have no clue, it’s too early for this nonsense
by DaPriceIsRight on May 24, 2011 7:40 AM EDT up reply actions
They weren't.
The Townsend pick was the first one they had a hand in IIRC.
If John Jaso somehow strikes out, it means you didn’t do your job right as an umpire.
by raysrule44 on Jul 9, 2010 8:37 PM CDT
The story is that the 2005 draft was kind of a joint venture
Naimoli’s crew wanted Townsend. Sternberg’s wanted Andrew McCutchen.
So, yeah.
Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com
by Imperialism32 on May 24, 2011 8:47 AM EDT up reply actions
The wouldacouldashouldabeen stories in this franchise are downright depressing
Could have drafted Albert Pujols
Could have kept Josh Hamilton
Could have drafted Andrew McCutchen
Could have drafted Buster Posey
where’s my whiskey?
I'm not a fanboy, I'm an analyst
by Jason Collette on May 24, 2011 9:38 AM EDT up reply actions
Every team could have drafted Pujols
@SandyKazmir
Yes I've only been a fan since 2009. You got me.
by blackraven on May 5, 2011 3:46 PM EDT
by Sandy Kazmir on May 24, 2011 9:50 AM EDT up reply actions
I don't agree with pitching around Cabrera to put two men on to face Martinez
He has always raked Rays pitching and putting a big RBI man in there with 2 guys on makes it worse. Hellickson just missed his spot but if Shoppach does his job and sets up where he should, it’s a moot point. We’ve seen at least two defensive screw-ups by major league veterans on this roadtrip that go back to basic 101 defense; one didn’t cost the Rays the game but last night it sure did.
For a team that relies upon doing it better than the next team, they’re simply not doing that well of late. Bad defensive miscues, flat out awful baserunning decisions, and having your 4 and 5 hitters attempting bunts with runners on base screams trouble.
I'm not a fanboy, I'm an analyst
But on the plus side...
We’re the second MLB team (after the 2010 Twins) to go 48 opening games without a multi-error game. Woooh.
Here’s hoping they get back to basics soon.
'That is an absurd username.' - Steve Slowinski.
by Concretepiggy on May 24, 2011 9:43 AM EDT up reply actions
Apparently Elliot sprained his knee, so atleast he's going to be out a couple games.
Which probably means Rodriguez at short.
@ptSuttery
PUT HIM ON THE DL AND CALL UP GUYER OR CHIRINOS OR JENNINGS OR COBB
@SandyKazmir
Yes I've only been a fan since 2009. You got me.
by blackraven on May 5, 2011 3:46 PM EDT
by Sandy Kazmir on May 24, 2011 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions
My thoughts exactly.
Brignac will be back in a couple days. Rodriguez and Lopez can hold down the MIF fort until then.
@ptSuttery
At this point
I would love to see a new catcher get a shot. Either Chirnos or Lobotan. But I am down with DL’ing Ej for any of those guys Sandy mentioned.
They're in Columbus - he can bus over and play tonight
I'm not a fanboy, I'm an analyst
by Jason Collette on May 24, 2011 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions
double play to Avila
Looks like he is making that reaction while looking at Avila but I’m guessing, he’s just pumped up with his infield.
Under construction
don't forget this is the new, slimmed down and dedicated Kelly Shitpik, the older slower
version would have missed that tag at the plate by 2 feet
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