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DRaysBay's Stadium Proposal - Part 2

This is a collaborative effort by the writing team. This is the second of a three-part series on this topic.  Jason Collette will be reviewing funding models used in other cities as well as reviewing the proposed funding model for the Al Lang site that never got off the ground on Thursday.

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Get used to this image, Rays fans and Bay Area residents, as the Tampa Bay Area Regional Transit Authority (TBARTA) unanimously approved this Master Plan Vision for the next 40 years last Friday. Should everything go as planned, the Bay Area will take on the image by 2050, with Bus Rapid Transit, the Long and Short Distance Rail, and the Water Transit funneling from the eight separate counties into the Tampa-St. Petersburg metropolitan area.

Star-divide

If only a small percentage comes to fruition, then the Rays will be in position to capitalize on the nation’s 19th most populated region. Hillsborough County has seen increases in population and density as Tampa became (arguably) the focal point of the Bay Area over the last decade. The data from the 2010 Census the eight counties in the area rank like this:

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The primary drawing pools for a new stadium should focus on Hillsborough and Pinellas counties, with the rest falling into a secondary market. What also becomes evident is that Hillsborough County should hold the future site for a new stadium, preferably within a close distance to Pinellas County. The Riverfront Site proposal from Part One is within Hillsborough County and is bounded by I-275 and the Crosstown Expressway—both serve as critical arteries in linking Pinellas and Hillsborough. Using this base for a new scenario, now it’s time to examine stadium possibilities behind the Riverfront Park location.

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For those that aren’t familiar, this is a rendering of the failed Sail Stadium design proposed by the Rays in 2007. Initial stadium design consisted of the Rays and Populous (the firm in charge of design) choosing functionality and cost-benefit analysis over convention without compromising design. For example, a traditional retractable roof seen in stadiums like Toronto and the new Marlins ballpark can send a $400M stadium into the $600M range. Add the amount of extra land required supporting its footprint and you could be looking at the $700 million dollar range. The benefit is obviously the assured protection against Mother Nature, as well as fan comfort. However, considering that maybe a dozen home games get rained out completely, and that most home games begin while the sun is going down, the revenue lost does not necessitate a nearly 200 percent increase in cost. With the sail proposal, you get the best of both worlds; fans are protected from the sun and rain at minimal cost and the team benefits from unique design. It is for these reasons that the Sail proposal was a perfect fit for this region as well as the Rays and there is no need to drastically change it.

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The only addition I’m making personally is something of a pet project of mine. Considering the way the Rays operate (known as the Extra 2% to fans around here h/t to Jonah Keri) I’m proposing that when/if the Rays move forward with a new stadium, they recycle a major part their short history: the Trop. In the interest of paying homage to the past, the Rays can recycle Tropicana Field's roof and catwalk material by creating awnings, coverings, and sculpture gardens around the new park. It's a minor gesture, but one with significance and symbolism, as the Rays are no stranger to turning trash into treasure.

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Repost from yesterday, which didn't get much attn:

Great Discussion I’m glad to see this site approaching the stadium subject. A few points:

- Can anyone explain the contract easing in 2016? I’ve heard it has something to do with city bonds, but don’t understand how it would effect the Rays committment to play in the Trop until 2027.

- I really don’t see Toytown as a potential site, as it doesn’t seem possible to put a baseball stadium on an old landfill. Mangrove Bay GC used to be a dump, and all they could get there was a golf course and little league baseball fields.

- Don’t even think about water access to a stadium across the bay. Nobody is taking a ferry to/from St Pete – Tampa and vice versa.

- I think it’s going to be hard to get much public financing for any new stadium deal. Hotel taxes and car rental fees might fly, but don’t expect the public to agree on any add’l sales taxes. Local governments might be able to offer public land, though.

- The more discussion I hear regarding a new stadium, the more I love the Trop. I used to think it was the worse ballpark in baseball, but now feel that it’s a great place to go for a game in Florida. I love walking into 72 degrees of cool Rays blue after trekking over the pedestrian bridge from Campbell Park. Fenway used to be considered a dump – now look at it’s reputation.

by Jonny Gomes Heart Attack on Jun 28, 2011 3:09 PM EDT reply actions  

Whoa, that was an awesome article

and frightening. I really really would hate to see the rays leave. (unless its to go to Orlando) but Orlando may not be able to support a baseball team, I’m not sure if the passion is there.

Yeah, I don't see Badancil turning out well.

@dobbertweets

by blackraven on Jun 27, 2011 5:08 PM PDT

by Badancil on Jun 28, 2011 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Passion nor money

The 3 headed monster of funding Amway, Arts Center, and Citrus Dump upgrades is a disaster. Amway went over budget, Arts Center is having to cut way back, and the Citrus Dump has $175M of stuff still not done. The city should just give that money to UCF to add to its stadium to keep the bowl games. If I’m Capital One and what not, why bring the game to Orlando and that craphole of a stadium downtown?

I'm not a fanboy, I'm a _______

by Jason Collette on Jun 28, 2011 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree here.

and traffic is no better in Orlando either. unless you want to pay 5 dollars on toll roads.
UCF is probably in over its head funding the medical school anyway, that building did not come cheap.

Yeah, I don't see Badancil turning out well.

@dobbertweets

by blackraven on Jun 27, 2011 5:08 PM PDT

by Badancil on Jun 28, 2011 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

it is?

I wasn’t aware.

Yeah, I don't see Badancil turning out well.

@dobbertweets

by blackraven on Jun 27, 2011 5:08 PM PDT

by Badancil on Jun 28, 2011 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

retract that

i thought you said it was easy to get IN to.
not to get to.

sorry. no its easy to get to, because its in the middle of nowhere, i know I live right next to it.

Yeah, I don't see Badancil turning out well.

@dobbertweets

by blackraven on Jun 27, 2011 5:08 PM PDT

by Badancil on Jun 28, 2011 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

What about the fact that lightning strikes in the area pretty much constantly every June, July and August?

Wouldn’t that make the retractable roof idea much more attractive?

"Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example." ~ Mark Twain

by LeeCaz on Jun 28, 2011 3:12 PM EDT reply actions  

I agree...

outdoor games our just not ideal for the majority of the season

Boom. Outta Here.

I am sure your god would be so proud you plaster his name onto money and license plates and bumper stickers. Such reverence. Nothing says how pious you are than to plaster a cheap bumper sticker to your god on a Kia.

@RyanGilliss

by Ryan Gilliss on Jun 28, 2011 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

They don't really...

how much attendance do they draw per game?

Boom. Outta Here.

I am sure your god would be so proud you plaster his name onto money and license plates and bumper stickers. Such reverence. Nothing says how pious you are than to plaster a cheap bumper sticker to your god on a Kia.

@RyanGilliss

by Ryan Gilliss on Jun 28, 2011 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

are they kept away by lightning strikes?

that’s what I was getting at

Nightly averages:

Clearwater: 2617
Tampa: 1900
Bradenton: 1353
Lakeland: 1040
Dunedin: 648
Charlotte: 2462

You figure 3 of those are playing on the same night each time so 5,010 fans a night are choosing the minor league option when a major league team is within a 90 minute drive.

I'm not a fanboy, I'm a _______

by Jason Collette on Jun 28, 2011 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Is Charlotte 90 minutes?

And you can get in the door to just about any of those places for $5

Boom. Outta Here.

I am sure your god would be so proud you plaster his name onto money and license plates and bumper stickers. Such reverence. Nothing says how pious you are than to plaster a cheap bumper sticker to your god on a Kia.

@RyanGilliss

by Ryan Gilliss on Jun 28, 2011 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Okay...

I still wouldn’t compare the two situations. I would imagine that a lot of the minor league attendance isn’t even paid. I also think that for the new stadium to be successful they are going to need a large corporate season ticket base.

Boom. Outta Here.

I am sure your god would be so proud you plaster his name onto money and license plates and bumper stickers. Such reverence. Nothing says how pious you are than to plaster a cheap bumper sticker to your god on a Kia.

@RyanGilliss

by Ryan Gilliss on Jun 28, 2011 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's probably not too hard to clear a stadium for lightning when it's that small.

I’ve been to a couple Bucs games that were delayed for Lightning and it was a huge pain in the ass. Does MLB have a policy for lightning strikes?

"Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example." ~ Mark Twain

by LeeCaz on Jun 28, 2011 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not sure.

For the Bucs they usually send everyone to the concourses and wait it out.

Sign lady must die.
Follow me on Twitter @Josh_Frank

by EminenceFront on Jun 28, 2011 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah. Luckily by the time the regular season starts the lightning storms have pretty much petered out

but if MLB has a similar policy you could count on Lightning delays at least once or twice a week during the summer months.

"Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example." ~ Mark Twain

by LeeCaz on Jun 28, 2011 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Are you literally just pulling these numbers out of your ass?

I would love to know how many times FSL or Marlin games are lightning delayed.

I bet it’s closer to once or twice a year

by Sveet on Jun 28, 2011 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Tampa Bay is the Lightning capital of the world

and during the summer it storms almost every afternoon. You dumb. Miami is on the East coast and not even close to the same situation.

"Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example." ~ Mark Twain

by LeeCaz on Jun 28, 2011 9:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oops. Meant to say lightning capital of the US, not world

"Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example." ~ Mark Twain

by LeeCaz on Jun 28, 2011 9:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Damn I'm lucky I didn't get struck last night when I was at the game

Lots of lightning around.

I don’t know how all the people that go to FSL games don’t get struck.

Please tell me how many FSL games get stopped because of Lightning and then I will believe you that it is an issue

by Sveet on Jun 29, 2011 9:01 AM EDT up reply actions  

It's not about getting struck by lightning dumbass

It’s about the policy of clearing the stands if there is lightning in the general vicinity of the stadium. I’ve already said I don’t know what MLBs policy is, but if it is their policy to clear the stands and delay the game when lightning strikes in the area then a lot of games are going to be delayed during the summer months. And that’s a pain in the ass.

Every time I try to type anything about lightning into google along with tampa it brings up a million hockey links, so I’m not sure how to wade through all that. I’ve been to about 6 or seven games at brighthouse over the years and one was cancelled and another delayed about an hour or so. That’s just my experience, but if you think weather doesn’t play a part in building an outdoor stadium then I guess there is no arguing the point.

"Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example." ~ Mark Twain

by LeeCaz on Jun 29, 2011 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

How many times have there been lightning delays at any of those games?

I would bet it is minimal. Same with the Marlins. My guess is minimal.

I think it’s a nonissue

by Sveet on Jun 28, 2011 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Miami gets far less lightning than Tampa.

They get tropical showers. Tampa’s summer storms are much more violent.

http://www.weather.gov/om/lightning/images/map.pdf

Notice the only place in then entire US in the 16+ category… right where this proposed stadium would go.

Voodoo Five - South Florida Bulls SBN Blog
The Toughest Blog in America

by Jamie DeVriend on Jun 28, 2011 4:47 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Also 1-2 nights per season in football is a lot different than 30 or so nights a season in baseball.

The odds of lightning disrupting a Rays game would be a lot higher because there are more of them.

Voodoo Five - South Florida Bulls SBN Blog
The Toughest Blog in America

by Jamie DeVriend on Jun 28, 2011 4:49 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Buildings can be grounded.

It’s not unheard of to take extraordinary measures to lightning-proof a structure.

Sign lady must die.
Follow me on Twitter @Josh_Frank

by EminenceFront on Jun 28, 2011 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Although the beam holding up the sail is the highest point in the immediate area and will get hit often

Which would scare the shit out of everyone since they’re all within about 100 yards of it.

Voodoo Five - South Florida Bulls SBN Blog
The Toughest Blog in America

by Jamie DeVriend on Jun 28, 2011 4:56 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

THOUSANDS OF TIMES A WEEK

I CAN BARELY WALK OUTSIDE WITHOUT GETTING STRUCK

by Sveet on Jun 28, 2011 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Far less?

It is one category below.

How many violent storms have we had all June?
Maybe 1.

The rain/lightning issue is being exaggerated imo.
Especially since the building proposed will have a sail that would block the rain anyway.

by Sveet on Jun 28, 2011 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Two categories. Tampa is pink (16+), Miami is orange (4-8).

So between 2-4x as much lightning.

Voodoo Five - South Florida Bulls SBN Blog
The Toughest Blog in America

by Jamie DeVriend on Jun 28, 2011 4:54 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Miami looks to be in the 8-16 range

Homestead is in the orange.

Point remains. Is this really what we are talking about? Lightning?

by Sveet on Jun 28, 2011 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

I love the additions to the proposal

- The Trop will not be imploded unless the new stadium is built there, so its a probable no-go on using pieces of it for the new stadium. They will likely find some AFL2 team, or another B-level sport (rollerderby anyone?) to take up the space.

-A dome is necessary. It just is. we live in Florida, and it is miserable to sit outside for any period of time, even with a shade like the sail provides (although I love that design so much it kills me). Realistically though, even at night during the summer the humidity can make it awful to sit outside, and I don’t see fans showing up all summer 6 days a week. The bucs can afford it, they only play 8 games at home. The Rays can’t.

-The lightning thing just got mentioned. so I’ll just point you northward.

-Transit is the key. It just is. I love the Trop, and I think alot of others can begrudgingly admit that too. The problem is, and will always be, transit. Without a good system it doesnt matter where in the bay you put it if the other half of the bay cant get there. (I am aware that you have discussed this, but either way thats more important than any design or funding)

-Id pay the tax, and lawmakers in the state of Florida have a habit of sneaking all kinds of things past the voters since the vast majority don’t even know what they are voting on. It is a large obstacle though.

Yeah, I don't see Badancil turning out well.

@dobbertweets

by blackraven on Jun 27, 2011 5:08 PM PDT

by Badancil on Jun 28, 2011 3:18 PM EDT reply actions  

Ok

-Ehhhh…it might hang around for awhile.
-Disagree
-Disagree
-True, but this location is convenient to more people than the Trop is now
-I also would gladly pay a tax for a new stadium. The Rays increase my quality of life

by Sveet on Jun 28, 2011 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Disagree on your disagrees

Boom. Outta Here.

I am sure your god would be so proud you plaster his name onto money and license plates and bumper stickers. Such reverence. Nothing says how pious you are than to plaster a cheap bumper sticker to your god on a Kia.

@RyanGilliss

by Ryan Gilliss on Jun 28, 2011 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Paying a tax for a new stadium.

Personally, I would not vote to pay a tax for a new stadium. Although I agree that the Rays increase my quality of life, I also feel that both owners & players make too much $$$ off of baseball, and a tax would only push these sums upward. Couple that with the idea that publicly funded stadiums further push moneys from the broad middle/lower class into the hands of the wealthy (see the Bucs suite repairs article from a month ago).

Regardless of my personal opinions, I don’t think you’ll find the public support necessary to pass a general tax onto the public for a new stadium.

by Jonny Gomes Heart Attack on Jun 28, 2011 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

It may not be necessary if they can set up a tax district around the stadium

Boom. Outta Here.

I am sure your god would be so proud you plaster his name onto money and license plates and bumper stickers. Such reverence. Nothing says how pious you are than to plaster a cheap bumper sticker to your god on a Kia.

@RyanGilliss

by Ryan Gilliss on Jun 28, 2011 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

County Comissioner

Do you realize Betty White is a milf for me? Ouch

follow me on twitter @sternfan10

by sternfan1 on Sep 3, 2010 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs

by wtbudlight on Jun 28, 2011 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yea, but that's equally crazy

Another example of local lawmakers sneaking in taxes. It might not come directly from our pockets, but any increases in property taxes should not be specifically directed towards infrastructure improvements supporting a new stadium.

by Jonny Gomes Heart Attack on Jun 28, 2011 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

The Trop will be demolished sooner rather than later if the team moves.

I think it would instantly become the second biggest parcel available in Pinellas County. The land would become too valuable to leave vacant, in my opinion.

Sign lady must die.
Follow me on Twitter @Josh_Frank

by EminenceFront on Jun 28, 2011 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

I have a better idea

We should use that HSR money to build it

by Sveet on Jun 28, 2011 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

They should have taken the money and made the stadium the train station in Tampa

ala FSU using gov’t money for to renovate their stadium by adding a few classrooms in it.

by Sveet on Jun 28, 2011 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Or, you know, Social Security.

Sign lady must die.
Follow me on Twitter @Josh_Frank

by EminenceFront on Jun 28, 2011 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

let's take it from medicare

None of us here need that money anyhow

I'm not a fanboy, I'm a _______

by Jason Collette on Jun 28, 2011 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Why am I paying to keep someone alive when all they do is consume resources?

It’s not like they’re in their prime age contributing to the work force anymore.

Sign lady must die.
Follow me on Twitter @Josh_Frank

by EminenceFront on Jun 28, 2011 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

death panels are highly underrated

Let the unproductive die off and give their homes to the illegals that want to come here to work. Win-win IMO, and since they pay into a system they can’t collect from, we just divert that $$ into the stadium funding.

I'm not a fanboy, I'm a _______

by Jason Collette on Jun 28, 2011 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

Funding is Part 3, gramps.

Sign lady must die.
Follow me on Twitter @Josh_Frank

by EminenceFront on Jun 28, 2011 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Strikes me that he would be able to help with the exact opposite of that

The caller said the boy, after removing the bulb from its socket, left the building and threw the bulb on the ground. When the bulb broke, the caller said the boy screamed "ooooown u poop"

by Top Gun Numba 1 on Jun 28, 2011 6:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: new stadium design

1) where are the ceiling fans?

2) can a stadium like that fit in Carrillion as easily as riverside Tampa?

3) this is Florida. Air conditioning, b-tches. Or no deal.

Time to shamelessly plug my book and short story!

by witty on Jun 28, 2011 6:34 PM EDT reply actions  

There was about $2 million budgeted towards "cooling methods" in the original proposal, IIRC.

They were planning on trying everything from fans to A/C vents underneath every seat.

Sign lady must die.
Follow me on Twitter @Josh_Frank

by EminenceFront on Jun 28, 2011 6:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

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