The Lack of Moves Frustrates Me
Mimicing what Steve said yesterday, I am also frustrated by the Rays team this year. Not so much from an "excitement" factor but from the lack of moves by the front office.
The Rays enter today with the 3rd best record in the American league and only 3.5 games behind the BoSox in the American League East and 3 games behind the Yankees for the Wild Card league. The frustration that I am feeling is not just from the Rays fan in me but from the baseball the fan in me.
Last year at this time we were not in first place. We stood in nearly the same spot that we are in today, fighting the Sox and Yankees for the division and Wild Card. We were 2 games behind the Yankees and the Red Sox were only 2.5 games behind us. The AL East and Wild Card races, much like this year, were very close and between the same three teams. The only difference is that no one seems to be giving the Rays a chance and they continue to write them off. It frustrates me to no end. Some moves need to take place.
I am also tired of the division excuse. Yes, because we are in the AL East we have to operate a bit differently than if we were in any other division but I fear that if we were in another division we would not only be on top of that division but making the proper moves to stay at the top. That is just hypothetical, I have no evidence to back that up, but it seems that the fear of the AL East competition always scares us away from making a move even when we have proven to be the competition in the AL East.
Now, I am not talking about trading Matt Moore or any of our other top-tier prospects. Jose Reyes is out if the picture for the Rays and apparently for the rest of the league. But the moves we can currently make from with-in simply are not happening. Echoing Steve again, there is no reason Desmond Jennings should not be up right now. No reason Jake McGee should not be up. I would even say there is no reason Brandon Guyer should not be up. Would those moves alone be enough? Not sure, but it is a start.
The Mets are listening to offers on Carlos Beltran and why wouldn't the Rays call? He would still be owed $6M for the final two months of the season but he is also slated to be a type-A free agent and if the Mets eat most of the money the Rays have the prospect depth to land Beltran without jeopardizing their future.
We could have a J.J. playing short for us and I am not talking about J.J. Furmaniak. What about J.J. Hardy? The Orioles have reached out to him about an extension but only want to limit it to about two years with top prospect Manny Machado possibly being ready for mid-2013. If an extension cannot be done soon they will no doubt shop his services. The market may get a little rich for him but should we not at least try?
I am not the expert on predicting which prospects it would take to get these deals done. I would like to imagine that we could land Beltran and Hardy and still hold on to Moore, McGee, Guyer, Hak-Ju Lee, Desmond Jennings, and Chris Archer but that be a bit naive of me. Would Alex Torres, Alex Colome, Kyle Lobstein, and Tim Beckham be enough to land the two? I think so but, agian, it could be me being naive. If that group of prosepects is considered by many to be too much for rentals may I remind you that we just had an incredibly deep draft and a potential trade of B.J. Upton in the offseason could net a nice package of prospects in return.
The point I am getting at is that we have so many moves we could make. If a team with a decent payroll had the roster and farm system of the Rays the internal moves would have been made and the external moves would be talked about in rumor mills across the blogosphere. Even with the budget restraints I see little risk in harming our future with a trade due to our organizational depth and savvy front office that can replenish the system if we had to trade any prospect outside of Moore, Lee, Jennings, and Archer.
Just one fan frustrated by the lack of moves from a David team that has a realistic shot at slaying two Goliaths.
237 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Archer is untradable? I guess a starter that walks 6.9 per 9ip doesn't come along all the time.
The caller said the boy, after removing the bulb from its socket, left the building and threw the bulb on the ground. When the bulb broke, the caller said the boy screamed "ooooown u poop"
by Top Gun Numba 1 on Jul 8, 2011 10:05 AM EDT reply actions
You're right. Let's write off a 22 year old in AA with top of the rotation stuff.
I would rather hold on to him. Besides, he has a 4.3 BB/9 since 2010 and a 9.0 K/9. We have enough depth that we could trade other pitchers who have a lower ceiling but may have higher current trade value depending on how a team evaluates prospects.
I didn't say write him off, but why are you thinking he's better than Colome, Torres, or Cobb?
The caller said the boy, after removing the bulb from its socket, left the building and threw the bulb on the ground. When the bulb broke, the caller said the boy screamed "ooooown u poop"
by Top Gun Numba 1 on Jul 8, 2011 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions
On pure stuff he is better.
He has higher upside than all three of them and a better BB/9 than Torres who would be the next in that line of prospects. The only thing Torres has on him is that he is left handed and a level up.
We'll have to agree to disagree. The "since 2010" in your last post is a bit BS. He had a nice year last year, but has regressed back to walking everything in site. Not super high on Archer, and I don't think anyone would say he's untradable.
The caller said the boy, after removing the bulb from its socket, left the building and threw the bulb on the ground. When the bulb broke, the caller said the boy screamed "ooooown u poop"
by Top Gun Numba 1 on Jul 8, 2011 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions
We will agree to disagree
And it’s not that he is untradeable but I wouldn’t trade him for a rental.
He has two pitches, even if they're both 7+ he's going to get hit very hard by good left-handed lineups a lot of the time
You’re advocating on behalf of some hybrid of Edwin Jackson and Carlos Marmol. He’s either an elite reliever or he’s a medicore starter. I’d rather get 1.5 WAR from a relief ace than 2.0 WAR from an average at best starter.
@SandyKazmir
Yes I've only been a fan since 2009.
by blackraven on May 5, 2011 3:46 PM EDT
Couldn't this same argument have been made about David Price when he was in Double-A?
Great fastball, good slider, but no third pitch. Were you on board with dealing him too?
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 8, 2011 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
He had a pretty good line last night
7 IP 4H 3BB I think
by DaPriceIsRight on Jul 8, 2011 10:18 AM EDT up reply actions
Relievers don't grow on trees, man.
@SandyKazmir
Yes I've only been a fan since 2009.
by blackraven on May 5, 2011 3:46 PM EDT
by Sandy Kazmir on Jul 8, 2011 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions
I wouldn't move Bex in a deal for either Beltran or Hardy.
Both of these guys are being overrated, IMO.
While I wish we had a different LF situation right now (Jennings or Guyer), I’m going to trust the process.
Twitter: @mbleazy
Really?
I think Bex’s value is fairly high right now and I think that Hardy this year, Brignac in 2012 and Lee in 2013 > Brignac this year, Brignac in 2012, Bex in 2013, Lee in 2014.
Moving him off of SS limits his value.
I guess he could play anywhere else and scouts have said he has been much better defensively this year but the half-dozen times I have seen him, including spring this year, he looked horrible on defense. His value is at its highest right now when he had none coming in to this year. Not saying he has to be traded but I would look to capitalize on this value.
By trading him for a rental SS or a washed up corner OF?
I just don’t think that’s the best utilization of an asset.
Twitter: @mbleazy
Washed up was too strong.
Older, expensive player with a history of injuries who does not fit the Rays mold.
Twitter: @mbleazy
His defense only plays at the corner (if that anymore) and I would rather plug Guyer/Jennings there on the cheap and use assets elsewhere.
Twitter: @mbleazy
Understood.
His bat would be much more welcomed than either of those two who are apparently not allowed to be called up.
Not sure why the Orioles would be interested, they already have the best SS prospect in baseball
The caller said the boy, after removing the bulb from its socket, left the building and threw the bulb on the ground. When the bulb broke, the caller said the boy screamed "ooooown u poop"
by Top Gun Numba 1 on Jul 8, 2011 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions
Macado > Olmedo
The caller said the boy, after removing the bulb from its socket, left the building and threw the bulb on the ground. When the bulb broke, the caller said the boy screamed "ooooown u poop"
by Top Gun Numba 1 on Jul 8, 2011 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions
Machado, my b
The caller said the boy, after removing the bulb from its socket, left the building and threw the bulb on the ground. When the bulb broke, the caller said the boy screamed "ooooown u poop"
by Top Gun Numba 1 on Jul 8, 2011 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions
I will let it slide
I do this for free
by SRQman on Jul 8, 2011 10:38 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I'd do that deal in a second BUT, this is a team that won't even promote a 4th outfielder for fear of an extra arb year
The caller said the boy, after removing the bulb from its socket, left the building and threw the bulb on the ground. When the bulb broke, the caller said the boy screamed "ooooown u poop"
by Top Gun Numba 1 on Jul 8, 2011 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions
Good point.
That is one of the moves that frustrates me so bad. Heck, they won’t even promote the best positional prospect and he won’t lose an arb year. It’s just all around frustrating.
It's bordering on absurd at this point
The caller said the boy, after removing the bulb from its socket, left the building and threw the bulb on the ground. When the bulb broke, the caller said the boy screamed "ooooown u poop"
by Top Gun Numba 1 on Jul 8, 2011 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions
"Bordering"
Sign lady must die.
Follow me on Twitter @Josh_Frank
by EminenceFront on Jul 8, 2011 10:38 AM EDT up reply actions
#rootingforstusbottomline
Sign lady must die.
Follow me on Twitter @Josh_Frank
by EminenceFront on Jul 8, 2011 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions
No it is absurd.
I do this for free
by SRQman on Jul 8, 2011 10:38 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Yup.
Sign lady must die.
#rootingforstusbottomline
by EminenceFront on Jul 8, 2011 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions
Why would they want Bex when they have Machado on basically the same timeline?
@SandyKazmir
Yes I've only been a fan since 2009.
by blackraven on May 5, 2011 3:46 PM EDT
All trade deadline acquisitions are overrated.
There’s not a silver bullet out there. It’s J.J. Hardy. Nice season, good player, not a savior. The O’s got him for a pair of relievers, and now people want to give up Beckham, Colome, etc. for him? Good grief.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 8, 2011 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions
From 2008-2010 Hardy hit 262 .324 .419 in nearly 1,500 plate appearances.
This season, 289 .348 .520 in 251. I’m just going to guess here, but he’ll probably hit closer to the 1,500 than the 250 going forward. Maybe not, but I’d be very hesitant to pay the inflated price for him over a half-season.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 8, 2011 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions
But that is still worth 1-1.5 wins above what we already have.
Not saying he’s a savior but the SS problem and need for a RH bat would be helped and it wouldn’t jeopardize the future.
Is that with regression worked in or just so far?
Because I can’t imagine Brignac continues to be this bad.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 8, 2011 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions
So far.
I couldn’t imagine him being this bad at all but I see no signs that he going to put up good numbers either.
So, we might be talking a 0.5 to 1 win improvement.
That doesn’t get this team into the playoffs, and it’s not worth talking about the prospect names mentioned.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 8, 2011 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions
But it adds up.
Add it to Jennings, who could be at least a win in LF over our current platoon. We have the pieces to make moves without jeopardizing the future and I don’t believe trading those names hurt our future. If we add two wins that is huge in the current race.
I completely disagree there.
Lobstein is the only one I don’t see a big deal about, at least not at this point.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 8, 2011 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions
no silver bullet
But some players that can make a major difference, with the obvious caveat of cost. Hunter Pence is intriguing. So is Rafael Furcal. Carlos Beltran is a nice bat. But I like Pence as a middle-of-the-order RH bat that can give the Rays a 3-4-5-6 of Pence-Longoria-Joyce-Zobrist, not to mention Upton. I think that’s worth considering.
by raysfaninminnesota on Jul 8, 2011 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Beltran costs like $9m for the rest of the year, Furcal around $5m, not sure how much Pence costs, but that's $14m right there.
So how are you 1) paying for that or 2) getting those teams to pay for that?
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 8, 2011 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Pence is around 3.5M and due arb next two seasons that will likely raise to $9M+ this offseason.
Plus he may cost more than what I want to offer, which is already too high for some people’s blood.
So that's $17.5 million in added salaries.
That’s probably not happening.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 8, 2011 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions
definitely not all three
Pence AND Furcal is my pipe dream. That adds about $6-7m this season.
by raysfaninminnesota on Jul 8, 2011 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Would you be willing to trade Jennings?
for 2 1/2 years of an All Star caliber OF? And be willing to shell out $20 or so million for the next two years? The reason why I say the Rays might is this:
1) Pence is a complete player (who I wish would just walk a little more)
2) He’s under team control for multiple seasons
3) He’s a low risk if you go year-to-year…only 1 year of sunken cost if get injured
4) You can always trade him and recoup what you traded to get him
5) He’s in prime of his career
He’s the type of “right fit” in the same mold of Jason Bay. He’s not a rental. And he’s good.
by raysfaninminnesota on Jul 8, 2011 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions
No.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow
by Steve Slowinski on Jul 8, 2011 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Then if Jennings is as good as all reports have stated
then it’s ridiculous that he isn’t with the big league team. We could use his speed to help create more runs. We could use his D in LF, and an all-around bat in the lineup. Fuld and Ruggiano offer elements of this, but Jennings offers the full package himself without a platoon. He’s 24. He’s been in AAA for multiple seasons now. Anything else he can learn here. Or at this point, he’s not going to learn it.
by raysfaninminnesota on Jul 8, 2011 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Would be smarter to keep Upton and just pay Arb3
@SandyKazmir
Yes I've only been a fan since 2009.
by blackraven on May 5, 2011 3:46 PM EDT
Don't even suggest that
The caller said the boy, after removing the bulb from its socket, left the building and threw the bulb on the ground. When the bulb broke, the caller said the boy screamed "ooooown u poop"
by Top Gun Numba 1 on Jul 8, 2011 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Should just keep Upton and let him walk if we were looking to do something like that
@SandyKazmir
Yes I've only been a fan since 2009.
by blackraven on May 5, 2011 3:46 PM EDT
Beltran isn't worth $9m to anyone
so they are going to contribute. The question is how much. Furcal has not been healthy enough to where they are not going to contribute 1-2m to the deal. Pence’s cost goes beyond this year and you would have to be willing to put that into the budget. That would be a Rays expenditure, for sure.
2 are rentals. 1 is an addition for the next couple seasons. Beltran depends on prospect cost (Torres?), and the idea of giving up a LHP scares me about a Kazmir reversal. Furcal won’t cost as much prospect-wise, but I think is worth the financial risk because he can be a major difference-maker at the top of the order. And Pence would be a great addition for this year and the next two seasons to come.
by raysfaninminnesota on Jul 8, 2011 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Houston probably values Pence pretty highly.
So how many good prospects are you draining yourself of for the right to pay him closer to market value?
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 8, 2011 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Jennings and maybe a pitcher
But Jennings is the centerpiece. Jennings is a top 20 prospect according to BA. I don’t have that trade calculator handy, but my guess is that ought to be pretty close. Cheap, cost-controlled talent for six seasons, and again, maybe a pitcher. I don’t think they’d get a better offer than that.
by raysfaninminnesota on Jul 8, 2011 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions
if I were Houston, I'd take Jennings for Pence
sort of like Lawrie for Marcum. But if I’m AF, I don’t make that trade.
Houston should take that 10 out of 10 times.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 8, 2011 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions
agreed
And it’s one I would think the Rays would consider as well. And the reason for it is this: The Rays are rarely ever going to get a player of Pence’s caliber in FA. It will have to come through development and trade. Pence isn’t a rental. Again, he’s like the almost Jason Bay trade. Except he comes with another year of control. A Rays middle-of-order of Pence-Longoria-Joyce-Zobrist for the next two seasons is pretty damn good, I think. And it is one they can afford.
by raysfaninminnesota on Jul 8, 2011 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions
At best, Pence is a 4 WAR player.
More likely 3.5.
In this scenario, I would rather keep BJ and pay him his arb cash, and try to give him the $ Pence would command long-term.
This deal doesn’t make sense for the Rays.
Twitter: @mbleazy
To say you would prefer a different way is one thing
but to say it doesn’t make sense is unrealistic.
Rays need a middle-of-the-order bat. Pence is a good OF. You are sacrificing 6 years of Jennings and a lower cost, for added salary and 2 1/2 years of Pence.
3 of last 4 seasons Pence has had a 3.5 WAR or better. This year he’s on pace to surpass it again. Having both Upton and Pence do not need to be mutually exclusive. At least for the next season and a half.
by raysfaninminnesota on Jul 8, 2011 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Adding a player like Pence, who has escalating arb #'s
when there are candidates in-house and resources needed elsewhere is not the Rays Way. That is why this deal does not make sense.
Twitter: @mbleazy
not the Rays way?
They were willing to pick up Jason Bay not for a half season, but also a 7.5 million dollar option. Now granted, Bay had seasons of 6 and 5 WAR and not the 3.5-4.5 WAR we’ve been seeing from Pence, but they were willing to spend money then, and if they like the player, I believe they will spend the money.
The Rays are not against spending money in the right deal. Rafael Soriano hardly fits “the Rays Way”, but they made an exception. It comes down to how much they value a player like Pence. But for a top 20-25 OF, complete player that has pretty even splits vs lefties and righties, the Rays can’t afford those types of players in FA. They either need to develop them or trade for them.
by raysfaninminnesota on Jul 8, 2011 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions
I love that Collette pointed out that Trout is already up and we have not promoted Jennings.
Now, that is absurd.
To be fair, Jennings has been up a few times before. Albeit for only a handfull of games.
Which is probably what is going to happen with Trout.
Sign lady must die.
#rootingforstusbottomline
by EminenceFront on Jul 8, 2011 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions
Unlikely.
Sign lady must die.
#rootingforstusbottomline
by EminenceFront on Jul 8, 2011 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions
Outside of being outfield prospects, why is Trout a point of comparison for Jennings?
The Angels aren’t playing by the same rules, further, they aren’t playing by the same logic as the rest of the league. This is the same team that dealt for Vernon Wells contract, that gave up talent for Scott Kazmir’s deal, and that signed Gary Matthews Jr. ay year before adding Torii Hunter based on one good season, signed Fernando Rodney, Scott Downs, and Brian Fuentes in consecutive offseasons, and traded Mike Napoli to give Jeff Mathis more playing time.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 8, 2011 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions
It's just sad when out top prosepct, who can help us win now, is still sitting in AAA.
And the super-two has passed. Jennings was expected to be called up by many at this point, not Trout.
I had the ASB as the time all along.
The wrist and finger injuries might be holding them back from calling him up too.
Also, the stats can show you a bit, but if there’s something in his game they want developed more fully, then they aren’t going to budge to make a mid-80s win team a little closer to 90.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 8, 2011 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Why not?
NY/BOS aren’t exactly running away and being promoted to the majors doesn’t preclude a player from developing further
Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com
by Imperialism32 on Jul 8, 2011 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Because 90 wins isn't going to do it anyways.
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/odds/
Has us at 12.4 percent, CoolStandings says 17.7 percent. The Yankees/Red Sox have run differentials either at 100, or above 100, the Rays are closer to 30. All these suggested moves smell like panic. I don’t think people realize it, but the Rays aren’t really nipping on their heels as much as the standings suggest. This team has played a bit over its head, truth told.
I want Jennings up as bad as anyone, but I’m going to trust there is a reason he isn’t, even if it’s just to cover up the scent of gaming his clock.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 8, 2011 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions
How on Earth is calling up a guy with 225 triple-A games a panic move?
Guys can develop at the MLB level!
Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com
by Imperialism32 on Jul 8, 2011 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions
That isn't the panic move.
Trading Colome, Beckham, and Torres for a half-season rental is.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 8, 2011 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Okay, that I agree with
Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com
by Imperialism32 on Jul 8, 2011 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions
I said I want Jennings up, I just tend to think there's something--even if it's just a little more service time gaming--going on there.
It could just be the injuries too. I don’t know.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 8, 2011 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions
But what is there left to game at this point?
If there’s some developmental thing, all right. But there hasn’t really been any indication of that — might be worth asking Sobsey, I guess.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow
by Steve Slowinski on Jul 8, 2011 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions
If there's some developmental thing and 224 games in triple-A hasn't gotten it done...
Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com
by Imperialism32 on Jul 8, 2011 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, that too.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow
by Steve Slowinski on Jul 8, 2011 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Boras is his agent.
I think there’s around 90 days left in the season, and Jennings was at 33, so that’s 122 max. Nobody knows the S2 date in two years time, but if their projections say around 130, they can still cut another 10 days off to avoid being close if the projections are off by a few days.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 8, 2011 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Oops. Meant to finish the Boras thought
Making it too obvious that it’s a gaming thing might draw his ire. Not sure if you can file something with the MLBPA about it, but he’d be the one to do it. Just look at what he did with Pedro Alvarez’s deal.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 8, 2011 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions
If there were recourse under the CBA
He’d have already filed a grievance
by GomesSweetGomes on Jul 8, 2011 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions
I just don't like how every other team has called guys up
Big markets, small markets, whatever
Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com
by Imperialism32 on Jul 8, 2011 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions
True, I guess. That'd be really early, though.
And teams have been calling up top prospects really early this season, so I’d imagine the cutoff wouldn’t fall around then.
I dunno — it’s definitely possible, and what you’re suggesting is the best thing I can think of. It just doesn’t seem very solid to me.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow
by Steve Slowinski on Jul 8, 2011 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions
I think it's more solid than "They don't want to ruin his trade value"
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 8, 2011 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions
lol, true.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow
by Steve Slowinski on Jul 8, 2011 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions
which does make me wonder what their real opinion of Jennings is
but then again, this team was very methodical in how it dealt with Joyce, and even this season with AB vs LHP.
by raysfaninminnesota on Jul 8, 2011 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions
This is exactly what the eye test tells me about the Rays
86 wins or so. I think 2.5 games seems like an ocean between them and NYY/BOS
Oh, oH... Be ready for a visit from the opthamologists around here!
Eye tests are not allowed.
All of those things also over-rate the fuck out of those other two teams
The game is played on the field
@SandyKazmir
Yes I've only been a fan since 2009.
by blackraven on May 5, 2011 3:46 PM EDT
yeah, not sure how this is a "mid-80s win team"
when their actual W/L (49-39) matches their expected W/L, on pace for 90 wins. That’s without expected improvement from Longoria or from within. I think the Rays have to be buyers at the break.
All of that being said: Hardy is a non-starter for me.
That's without expected regression from Kotchman, Joyce, probably Zobrist, the rotation (I doubt Shields ends up with 12 CG), and the bullpen too.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 8, 2011 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions
true, but shouldn't there be positive regression here, too?
from LF, C, and a healthy Longoria? Shouldn’t that help to balance it out a little? And the fact that the Rays have a couple bullpen options in AAA?
by raysfaninminnesota on Jul 8, 2011 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes, of course.
And PECOTA takes that all into account.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 8, 2011 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions
now that Nate Silver has left
I wouldn’t trust PECOTA to guess my weight
Colin Wyers has no idea what he's doing!
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 8, 2011 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions
how's that Dan Johnson projection looking right now?
come to think of it, PECOTA has pretty much whiffed on everything for the Rays, no?
Colin Wyers has no idea what he's doing!
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 8, 2011 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions
My argument is that you're burying Wyers for stuff that he had no part in.
PECOTA was broke after Silver left, but Wyers is taking steps to revamp it. Did you read the testing articles? Because it’s right on par with the other systems that get the fuzzy treatment. To say it’s worthless is living in the past, much like PECOTA was until Wyers.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 8, 2011 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions
well then, let's get it fixed before
a) we start saying with confidence that the Rays have less than a 1-in-3 shot of making the playoffs; and
b) we start saying demonstrably false things like this being an 85-win team.
It's false because they have played better than a team on a 85-win pace so far?
Okay, if baseball were that easy to predict, then we wouldn’t need projection systems, now would we?
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 8, 2011 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions
I guess you have a problem with third order wins saying the Rays have played like a .547 win team too, right?
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/standings/
That’s 88-89 wins.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 8, 2011 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions
totally disingenuous
1. A .547 winning percentage is 88.6 wins and you know damn well there’s a major difference, particularly in this division, from being an 88-90 win team so far and being the 85-win team you described.
2. The reason why calling the Rays an 85-win team is false is because there’s no positive evidence for it.
I said mid-80s, I've been saying 85-to-90 for a while.
You do realize true talent 89 win teams often win fewer/more games, right?
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 8, 2011 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions
85-to-90 is not "mid-80s"
It just isn’t. If you mean the Rays are an 85-to-90 win team, then say that.
You don't consider 83-to-87 mid-80s? Okay. Whatever.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 8, 2011 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions
You're digging yourself a deeper hole
There’s no evidence that this is an 85-win team, let alone an 83(!)-win one.
It’s kind of hilarious that two posts ago you say “85 to 90” and in this one you’re saying “83 to 87.” At this pace, the Rays will be a 60-win team by the bottom of the thread.
You're arguing semantics right now.
I’m not really sure what your point is. RJ’s saying he projections have the Rays falling somewhere between 85 and 90 wins, which gives us slim odds of reaching the playoffs. So what exactly are you arguing?
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow
by Steve Slowinski on Jul 8, 2011 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm arguing that this sentence
“Also, the stats can show you a bit, but if there’s something in his game they want developed more fully, then they aren’t going to budge to make a mid-80s win team a little closer to 90.”
Is either misleading or false. And I don’t really think that’s controversial; if it was “X.Q. Walrustitty” who said something that obviously incorrect, you’d all be piling on along with me.
Umm, no...that's pretty right on the money.
Talking true talent level, at least.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow
by Steve Slowinski on Jul 8, 2011 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions
?
I just… I don’t know. Maybe English has changed in the past day or so, but I don’t see where anyone has provided any evidence that the true talent level of this team is 85-wins.
Pythag has them at 90 wins.
ExWL has them at 90 wins.
3OW has them at 89 wins.
Where is the affirmative evidence that this is an 85 win team playing over their heads?
I'm beginning to feel like you're just trolling me.
Pythag and third order wins are based on what’s happened, not what will happen moving forward. If you look at the third order wins for BOS/NYY, you will see that they’ve underperformed, okay, now TB is going to play those two teams a lot more heading forward than they did before. That within itself can lead to some worse results than the Rays have experienced, which PECOTA is taking into account, as they simulate the entire season.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 8, 2011 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Factor in the error bars, and I still don't get why 89 3OW somehow shows my 85-86 true talent comment is being treated like the worst thing in this thread.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 8, 2011 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Because those 3-4 wins are pretty much the most important and you can't just handwave them away as, "well I was close"
It’s a matter of precision in this case as those that can spot the exact spot on the win curve will be those that can appropriately suggest future course of action. If this is an 85 win team with a +-3 win swing then they have no chance at the playoffs. If you feel it’s a 90 win team, and I do, then you’re looking at a range of 87 – 93 wins which puts them right in the front of the wild card chase.
@SandyKazmir
Yes I've only been a fan since 2009.
by blackraven on May 5, 2011 3:46 PM EDT
by Sandy Kazmir on Jul 9, 2011 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions
"I'm beginning to feel like you're just trolling me"
That sounds hot.
by raysfaninminnesota on Jul 8, 2011 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't know how else to explain it.
It’s just nitpicking otherwise. It would be like me railing on him for saying 33 percent odds without any proof.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 8, 2011 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions
It could also lead to better results as these teams are much more evenly matched then you are giving credit for
@SandyKazmir
Yes I've only been a fan since 2009.
by blackraven on May 5, 2011 3:46 PM EDT
by Sandy Kazmir on Jul 9, 2011 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions
No, mid-80s true talent teams don't always win 85 exactly.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 8, 2011 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Error bars should always be assumed.
They could win 90, they could win 83. It just depends, but I think the true talent level of this club is around 85-86 wins. Maybe a win or two higher or lower.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 8, 2011 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Ahh, there we go.
And that sounds about right to me.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow
by Steve Slowinski on Jul 8, 2011 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Slurp
@SandyKazmir
Yes I've only been a fan since 2009.
by blackraven on May 5, 2011 3:46 PM EDT
by Sandy Kazmir on Jul 9, 2011 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions
and projection systems are always right
I do this for free
by SRQman on Jul 8, 2011 1:40 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
It already is fixed, is what he's saying.
Colin is making it even better, but PECOTA is just as good right now as most other projection systems. Only reason I don’t look at it more often is that I’m waiting for the BPro website design change.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow
by Steve Slowinski on Jul 8, 2011 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions
no, what he's saying is
“Colin Wyers has no idea what he’s doing!”
What’s ridiculous is that R.J. came on here to argue that the Rays are an 85-win team with no chance of making the playoffs. That’s obviously ridiculous.
or.. THE REALIST ONE
I do this for free
by SRQman on Jul 8, 2011 1:42 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
but that's also without expected regression from NYY
or perhaps you think they’re going to continue to get front-of-the-rotation seasons from Fat Ass Colon and Freddy Garcia, 50-homer pace from Curtis Granderson, and none of their 200-year-old players are going to get hurt?
THIS
Yankees rotation is pitching WAY over their heads, Granderson is playing like a Greek god at the original olympics, etc.
by raysfaninminnesota on Jul 8, 2011 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Nope, most of those things are unlikely to continue.
At the same time, Swisher is unlikely to keep being poor against righties, Teixeira is likely to hit a little better, and they have Montero as an ace in the deck, should they need it. Plus, they can absorb bad deals.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 8, 2011 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions
but the Yankees' downside is considerably higher than their upside
Seriously, they could wind up with one starter by the playoffs.
So if the Rays have, say, 1-chance-in-3 at making the playoffs with their current roster, that argues very strongly for maximizing their available talent (within reason, of course). That means they are at the absolute top of the curve when it comes to the marginal value of each additional win.
And it means that the characterization of this team as a “mid-80s-win team” is just wrong.
I fully expect a Kazmir type move before Aug.31st.
Trade an expendable, escalating contract(like Upton, perhaps Shields) for ML ready(or almost) players of need. Creates openings for the young players so desperately wanted by fans, saves money, gives the appearance that the Rays could still stay in the race this year, while making the team improved for next season and going forward.
Somewhat likely, before the July deadline, if the Rays fall behind enough(and there is a partner willing) but more likely into August, especially if the Rays are out of it.
Agreed but do they need to save money
Saving a ton over last year.
I expect Damon, Farny for sure to be gone.
Trading BJ saves about 6 million in arbitration for next season while Shields will be making 7 million in 2012.
That’s a nice chunk of change to offer a FA or two over the winter.
Moving Damon saves 2 million now and Farnsworth about 2 million, although Rays could get a decent(not great) prospect for either.
A Kazmir type trade is to escape a burdensome deal before all hell goes down.
Neither Upton/Shields fit that.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 8, 2011 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Maybe not hell though.
Kazmir, yes to contract but Davis was waiting at the door step. Killed two birds with one stone.
Upton is a fair equivalent. Not so much for the money but yes when you include Jennings and possibly the impatience with BJ in the FO.
Shields because the Rays, while losing a solid arm, would be trading at his maximum value and could get a boatload for him now, IMO.
Why do you assume the FO is impatient with Upton?
They’ve hold onto him until the 1.5 years til FA mark. If anything, they’ve been more patient with him than any player, sans Crawford and Baldelli, in the franchise’s recent history.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 8, 2011 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions
I get the feeling that the Rays have BJ evaluated better than any one else out there...
Erm, no.
Sorry, but there’s no way they’re buyers at the break. Maybe a bullpen arm, but more likely our “buying” is going to come from Triple-A.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow
by Steve Slowinski on Jul 8, 2011 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions
I still think buying/selling could be an option
especially if BJ gets moved, I could see us getting a ML ready COF. If the plan is Jennings in CF and they want to be serious about being a contender this year they need to upgrade LF. I could also see adding a reliever at the right price although I think Gomes, Mcgee, and Swindle are more likely to be options to fill any holes. SS could be filled but only if we get the right deal, no way do I see us overpaying for a guy like Izturis, Hardy, or Furcal. I could see us maybe going after a minor leaguer like Plouffe and trying him out.
"If...they want to be serious about being a contender this year"
Odds of that are really, really slim.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow
by Steve Slowinski on Jul 8, 2011 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions
why not?
Each rung of the playoffs adds ~$20MM in revenues.
I don't think we're close enough to be making that push.
Although it depends how much we’re talking about adding. Obviously, for the right price….but we’ve been a lot better off in past years and never made a move.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow
by Steve Slowinski on Jul 8, 2011 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions
what if they win tonight?
Back of the envelope: if each rung of the playoffs is worth ~$20MM, and playoffs are basically a coin flip, then you’re talking about $20MM + 0.5 * $20MM (ALCS) + 0.25 * $20MM (WS) if an acquisition allows you to overtake the Yankees. So that’s $35MM+, before counting enhanced revenue in September and October down the stretch, merchandise, etc.
So if you think the Rays have a 25% chance of making the playoffs now, but adding a 2-win player would increase that to 50%, that’s a net ROI of ~$9MM to add said player.
Tweak the numbers as you see fit, but it seems pretty clear to me that there are a large number of scenarios under which acquiring players (either via salary or via opportunity cost in trading prospects) makes sense from a purely financial point of view.
How many 2 win players (over the remainder of the season) are actually on the trade market?
You’re talking about acquiring a huge, big name player there. The Rays would have to pay through the nose for something like that.
I believe you’re overestimating both the Rays’ current playoff odds and the amount that a mid-season pickup can help. The money is great if we make the playoffs, yeah, but it’s really a risk-reward thing and I think you’re underselling how long of a shot it is.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow
by Steve Slowinski on Jul 8, 2011 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Beltran has a 3.1 WAR so far
for example
I was going to say this above
But I think you’re overrating Pence a lot. I like him; he’s a good player, and he’s probably worth 2+ wins for the balance of the season.
But: a) I don’t think he’s a good bet to be much better than a 4-win player in 2012 and 2013, and you’ll be paying near-market-value for him; and b) I think he’s going to be much more expensive to acquire in trade than Beltran.
Don’t get me wrong: if I’m AF, I’m inquiring about Pence. And the counterargument is that the Yankees or Red Sox could take on all of Beltran’s salary, so he might not be a realistic option. You have to keep a bunch of irons in the fire.
How can you say that?
What findings make you think decline is in order, when he’s been a 3-4 WAR player over the last 4 years?
by raysfaninminnesota on Jul 8, 2011 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm wondering this also
Age maybe? Still 2 years here would solve that. I like this idea.
because he's on pace to be a 5.5 WAR player this year?
If you’re trading for him expecting his 2009, then we don’t disagree at all. I’m just saying I don’t see him as a .325 hitter going forward.
well, yes, he's not likely to keep up this pace
BABIP would agree with you. But he’s been a 3-4 WAR player consistently now. I think you can safely project that going forward. And possibly more, with a better offense around him.
He ranks 13th among MLB OF in WAR, and is consistently a top 25 OF for the last 4 years.
by raysfaninminnesota on Jul 8, 2011 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions
right, right, we don't disagree
in 2009, he hit .282/.346/.472 and was worth 4.1 WAR. (Incidentally, that’s within spitting distance of what Longoria is hitting right now, and most people have viewed Longo’s season as a disappointment to date.)
I think that’s reasonable to expect for 2012. My point is really just that you’re buying high on Pence — that’s all.
I wouldn't buy based on his current stats
but on what he’s consistently done. I think he fits what the Rays need. I think Pence is a RH version of Matt Joyce.
by raysfaninminnesota on Jul 8, 2011 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions
that 4.1 was over a full season...
Longo has put up a 2.3 in 1/3 of a season
Comps to Longo are never good
but Pence can be a quality player, and a good addition to the Rays.
by raysfaninminnesota on Jul 8, 2011 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions
What do you think he is worth?
A win? 1.5?
You have to factor is that they play 4 months before the trade deadline and 2 months after.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow
by Steve Slowinski on Jul 8, 2011 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions
So yeah, you'd probably be talking about a player like Beltran.
But just realize that 3.1 WAR right now =/= 3.1 WAR rest of the way.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow
by Steve Slowinski on Jul 8, 2011 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions
You also have to factor that he might not play that well heading forward.
And, if you’re going to talk about the Yankees rotation as a injury risk, Beltran isn’t the healthiest of guys either. By extension, you have to factor in the cascading effect of having Beltran or Damon play on turf. Damon played like two games before complaining of soreness.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 8, 2011 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions
also have to factor in that any offensive player coming to this ball park
isn’t going to hit as well.
Bringing up Jennings for Sonnanstine is probably a two win swing and that's just within our own system
You don’t have to have a LF for LF swap, for instance, you’re replacing the last man on the roster similar to bullpen chaining.
@SandyKazmir
Yes I've only been a fan since 2009.
by blackraven on May 5, 2011 3:46 PM EDT
by Sandy Kazmir on Jul 9, 2011 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Hank Conger more time, otherwise I agree
@SandyKazmir
Yes I've only been a fan since 2009.
by blackraven on May 5, 2011 3:46 PM EDT
Beltran has a contract provision that prevents the Mets from offering him arbitration
Not sure if that would transfer if he’s traded, but even then, without a handshake deal it’s tough to see the Rays acquiring a guy and running the risk of being stuck with a $20+MM salary in arbitration if he accepts.
Which is not to say it wouldn’t be awesome to get Beltran. It would. I just think that the structural problems make it uniquely difficult to get the Rays involved.
As for Hardy: the Orioles are notoriously ridiculous trading partners. They’re like that guy in your fantasy league who’s calling you up to offer you Hanrahan for Pujols and Kershaw. Ultimately my guess is that they don’t trade Hardy at all — just like they didn’t trade Luke Scott last year.
Andy McPhail does bother me as a trade partner.
He only deals in low-tier trades that are really meaningless or he gets a ton for Erik Bedard. It is his last year under contract so he may do a deal just to keep the focus on the future and secure his spot in the org.
it's clear to me that MacPhail just way overrates his own players
e.g., the Orioles backed out of the deal that would have sent Nolan Reimold and Alfredo Simon to TB for Jason Bartlett, and those two guys are roleplayers at best.
by AndrewTorrez on Jul 8, 2011 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions
I'll FO should take the advice of Herm Edwards, "You play to win the game!"
Unfortunately our FO does not play to win the game. Their entire structure is built to be pretty competitive for the long run and hope to God something great happens in one of those years. Certainly not a bad strategy, but I’d rather them go for it at some point. We have a bounty of prospects, and at some point someone will have to get traded. Would it really hurt to trade for a major league stud than just continue to create an overflow of minor league talent? I don’t even know what to think of the lack of Jennings and Guyer, and the Sonny starts. Perhaps it is a combination of a brain fart and being extremely cheap? Either way I don’t give a crap what any of the projections say, we are right in the thick of things. We can win it all this year. Don’t make a bad trade, but just try to win the damn game. The incremental value of attempting to win this year is so much greater than having an extra minor league arm. I get that a young player has more “value” than an older player, but we always seem to forget the opportunity cost as well as roster restrictions in those calculations. A prospect can have a tremendous amount of projected WAR, but if he isn’t going to play due to a logjam at the position then his value to this team is tremendously diminished. The WAR has to have the ability to be realized, if it doesn’t then you can still “win” a deal even if you lose out on “projected” value.
I thank Draysbay for proving that Loose Change fanatics exist in mainstream America, and more importantly for Chik-fil-A spicy chicken recommendations. My life is forever changed
+infinity
Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com
by Imperialism32 on Jul 8, 2011 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions
I agree with most of what you said.
The hard part is that the process has worked to a point but we still have no championships. I don’t want to be the Marlins and build-win-implode but it would be nice to see a World Series banner at some point. I want to see some deals happen but nothing that will kill the process and I think what I mentioned would not harm the process unless the market demands a top 20 prospect for Hardy or Beltran or any other help. Heck, I’d do a prospect trade for Yonder Alonso right now. It wouldn’t hurt the team.
I would add Beckam in a deal with the Reds for Alonso.
They have nothing at SS and may not want to pay 12 million next year for Phillips to play 2nd.
Throw in a B arm to the Reds or upgrade to a Cobb, Torrez or Archer and ask for Mesoraco or Grandal.
Mesoraco
would be nice. I’d focus on Ramos/Norris/Mesoraco if I were trading.
I wouldn’t do too much for alonso.
that's a fantasy league trade
Never happens in real baseball
I'm not a fanboy, I'm a _______
by Jason Collette on Jul 8, 2011 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Would be nice over the winter when teams needs shake out a little more.
Surplus for needs in the Rays/Reds case here.
OT: The words/numbers "9/11" and "conspiracy" have been used 8 times together on DRB...
3 of those times they were used, it was done by matthan.
by Ryan Gilliss on Jul 8, 2011 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Jennings not being up is getting really strange
The only thing I can think of is that they only want him to be their CF. And they have already made up their minds that they’re not catching the Yanks or Sox and they’re going to move Upton.
Makes no sense to me, but that could only be the explanation at this point.
as I said on another thread
Ruggiano’s OPS is .794
Over the past 28 days, Fuld’s OPS is .804
I want to see DJ up, too, but the simple explanation is that right now, Jennings is unlikely to outproduce what we’ve been getting out of our leftfielders over the past month. When Ruggiano returns to earth — or someone gets hurt — you’ll see him. No need to postulate wacky conspiracy theories.
by AndrewTorrez on Jul 8, 2011 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions
I would say Ruggiano has returned to earth.
From batting .372 with a 1.032 OPS on June 14th down to the .794 OPS he has now.
That Fuld stat was surprising though.
Zobrist has done a lot more by himself than that duo has done in LF
I’d rather use Ruggiano to spell Joyce until he gets it back together than live with that platoon. I’d also like to see Fuld used more as the 5th OF that he is or for pinch-running. He shouldn’t be seeing more than 6 AB a week.
I'm not a fanboy, I'm a _______
by Jason Collette on Jul 8, 2011 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions
THIS
way too much Fuld. He’s a late inning guy for defense and a pinch runner. AB’s for Fuld (at the possible expense of DJ) makes me nuts.
seeing him fly out 3 (or was it 4?) times to shallow center last night drove me crazy
I'm not a fanboy, I'm a _______
by Jason Collette on Jul 8, 2011 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions
on a friggin 2-0 count, no less
Bring up DJ, and Ruggiano and Fuld can be PH, PR types that spell the 3 starters during the week.
by raysfaninminnesota on Jul 8, 2011 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions
I would go so far as to say
I’d trade Fuld to someone looking for a reserve OFer/speed guy. Get him out of the picture completely. I don’t even expect anything in return.
I would imagine Ruggs will get claimed if/when they put him through waivers. Either way DJ should be here yesterday.
Rather have Fuld on this team.
Ruggiano isn’t as good defensively or on the paths, and with Guyer/Jennings, the team could stand to have a lefty outfielder.
by R.J. Anderson on Jul 8, 2011 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions
and who would you send down in that scenario?
by AndrewTorrez on Jul 8, 2011 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Elliot Johnson
Brignac and S-Rod can manage SS if/until the Rays upgrade (Rafael Furcal?)
by raysfaninminnesota on Jul 8, 2011 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions
neither of those seem particularly realistic
I don’t see the Rays going with 6 relievers (and no long reliever), or without a true backup SS, and I certainly don’t see them trading for Furcal.
by AndrewTorrez on Jul 8, 2011 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Jennings day to day after getting hit on hand during bunt attempt
He does seem to get alot of day to day type injuries.
you don't say
Maddon's Mission
Make you want to kill him, then make you want to love him. Sly.
by Jonah Keri on Jun 19, 2010 10:31 PM EDT
but lets trade beej!!!
@thekidpow
by PlayOnWords on Jul 8, 2011 1:51 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
They are probably just being cautious with him...
considering his prospect status
THIS EXPLAINS EVERYTHING
AF is psychic and knew he’d get hurt soon.
yea the lack of moves as a whole have been frustrating.
Some guy was complaining about dropping Oscar Hernandez on his keeper league or whatever the minor league fantasy leagues are, and I said that he need not worry because it will be 8-10 years before he ever sniffs the majors if he turns out to be a real big time prospect.
I’m not sure why Guyer’s name is even being brought up, if the Rays aren’t going to bring Jennings up that means Guyer is most likely a year or more away. This is Guyer’s first year at AAA and they have given Jennings what 2 years now.
Guyer is brought up because he has the tools the Big League club is looking for.
It should be Jennings over Guyer but Jennings has the longer term potential and they seem to be playing it safe with service time. Not that they don’t care about Guyer, becasue they do, but he could spend all of next year in AAA and be saved service time. Like they did with Joyce.
Guyer in AAA at least makes sense
Jennings doesn’t.
shits fucked up. i 100% agree with a matthan post.
#vinikfortbsportsarchlord
@thekidpow
by PlayOnWords on Jul 8, 2011 1:50 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Flags fly forever
I do this for free
by SRQman on Jul 8, 2011 1:52 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
but how will stu be able to pop dom at berns then????
@thekidpow
by PlayOnWords on Jul 8, 2011 1:58 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Yeah, I'm in this camp and I don't feel good
The caller said the boy, after removing the bulb from its socket, left the building and threw the bulb on the ground. When the bulb broke, the caller said the boy screamed "ooooown u poop"
by Top Gun Numba 1 on Jul 8, 2011 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm good with a few down years in exchange for a flag
i know this will get ridiculed but if the Rays win it all Stu has less leverage for a stadium
If you want to keep guns out of the hands of thugs, just attach job applications to them
Not sure how i feel about the last point, but i don't think the Rays have to put themselves in a position to have a few down years to get a flag.
Just don’t fucking trade shields and bj, call up cobb, and trade something for a bat. I don’t see how that does longterm damage
The caller said the boy, after removing the bulb from its socket, left the building and threw the bulb on the ground. When the bulb broke, the caller said the boy screamed "ooooown u poop"
by Top Gun Numba 1 on Jul 8, 2011 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions
because SOMEONE OUT THERE is going to trade a utility infield for jeff niemann!!!
@thekidpow
by PlayOnWords on Jul 8, 2011 2:11 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Good point, wasn't even considering Niemann's trade value. Welp, wrap it up. Sell off everything including the office furniture
The caller said the boy, after removing the bulb from its socket, left the building and threw the bulb on the ground. When the bulb broke, the caller said the boy screamed "ooooown u poop"
by Top Gun Numba 1 on Jul 8, 2011 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Friedman bout to trade Longo and Price to the Stros
According to the Houston Chronicle’s Richard Justice, Rays GM Andrew Friedman has “left some of his friends with the clear impression that he would love to be the next GM of the Astros.”
Do your due diligence
http://twitter.com/richardjustice/status/89390593293287424
The caller said the boy, after removing the bulb from its socket, left the building and threw the bulb on the ground. When the bulb broke, the caller said the boy screamed "ooooown u poop"
by Top Gun Numba 1 on Jul 8, 2011 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions

by 
























