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Why This Trade Deadline Kinda Stunk

Now that the trade deadline has passed, many of us are feeling conflicting emotions. Some people are quite glad we didn't trade Upton, while others out there are disappointed that the Rays didn't make any moves. I fall into the later category; for me, this deadline was incredibly frustrating.

We all know how the chips lie right now. The Rays are out of the playoff race in 2011. They have a number of players on the team that will either be leaving via free agency after the year (without any compensation picks), or will be getting much more expensive this offseason. As the Rays are a small market team and must try to extract as much value as possible from their investments, it seemed logical to expect them to make some moves by the deadline.

At the same time, I did state that the Rays were in the driver's seat: they didn't have to make any trades, and could afford to make sure they got good value for their trade chips. That's most likely what happened; the Rays didn't feel they were offered attractive deals for any of their players, so they chose to refrain from making any trades.

And a part of me wants to accept that. This front office has a long track record and should have our trust on evaluating the market. If they felt there weren't any good deals being offered to them, there likely weren't. They can always wait until this offseason to trade away players.

But another, larger part of me wants to scream out, "GAAAAHH!" Let me explain why.

Star-divide

Evaluating This Year's Market

This is a difficult year to categorize: it wasn't necessarily a buyer or seller's market, as there were plenty of both good and bad deals that went down. Hunter Pence and Carlos Beltran both brought back good returns, while Michael Bourn was traded for what felt like pennies to the dollar. Ubaldo Jimenez brought back a decent return in prospects, but I was still left underwhelmed by the total package for the Rockies. The Nationals were seemingly interested in adding an outfielder like B.J. Upton or Denard Span, but unwilling to trade anyone outside of Tyler Clippard and Ian Desmond.

If I had to pick one, I'd probably say it was a buyer's market. Hunter Pence was the only player whose return blew me away, and I wouldn't have liked the Bourn return for B.J. Upton. So in that regard, I'm glad the Rays held onto Upton.

And yet, there were still values to be had on this year's market. In particular, relief pitchers brought back some great returns:

Koji Uehara for Chris Davis and Tommy Hunter

Brad Ziegler for Brandon Allen and Jordan Norberto

Mike Adams for Robbie Erlin and Joe Wieland

Koji, Ziegler, and Adams are all better pitchers than Kyle Farnsworth and Joel Peralta, but it doesn't seem that unrealistic to me that the Rays could have put forward some sort of competitive package in all of these instances. And hey, maybe they did and it was never reported. All I know is that it was disappointing to watch both Chris Davis and Brandon Allen -- two powerful young hitters that would be worth a flyer as a 1B or DH -- get traded for a reliever without any apparent action by the Rays.

Status of the Organization

Since the Rays are now out of the 2011 race, they should have their eye fixed firmly on planning for 2012 and beyond. But when I look at the projected 2012 roster right now, I'm not terribly overwhelmed by it:

2012_medium

This is a solid team, not doubt about it, and it's good enough to compete if things go well. But for the most part, this roster is very similar to the team the Rays are fielding right now, and we all know how frustrating they can be to watch. Going into 2012, the Rays have multiple holes on offense -- shortstop, first base, and DH -- and they can't fill them with top prospects; the Rays have no more top position prospects coming up until Tim Beckham and Hak-Ju Lee reach the majors. So what can they do?

Well, signing free agents is going to be difficult. The Rays will still likely be sticking with a payroll around the $40-50 million level -- after this season's attendance, why would they increase it? -- but they won't have as much flex room as they did this past offseason. Their current payroll is around $42 million, and even though they will be shedding around $13 million in free agents (Damon, Ramirez, Peralta, Cruz, Kotchman, and possibly Shoppach), they will see significant salary increases in other parts of their roster.

Players getting raises due to long term contracts will add $6 million to the payroll (Shields, Zobrist, Longoria, Farnsworth, and Davis), and the Rays will have six players eligible for arbitration: Howell, Rodriguez, Niemann, Joyce, Upton, and Price. These players won't come cheap; even if we estimate they will only receive a group raise of $10 million, that will put the Rays' 2012 payroll at $45 million (my estimates put them closer to $48 million). And that's without addressing their holes at first base or DH, and sticking with the status quo at shortstop.

This is why Upton will get traded. For him to stick around in Tampa Bay, he'd have to sign a long-term extension that would keep his salary around the $4-5 million level, and there's little incentive for him to sign such a deal right now. The Rays evidently didn't feel they were getting good offers for him this trade deadline, but he will need to be traded this offseason to give the Rays some wiggle room for 2012.

And this is also why I wish the Rays had done something this deadline. Trade away Damon, Shoppach, Peralta, Farnsworth, etc., even if you don't get the best return on them. Just get something back, and hopefully add a piece like Brandon Allen or Chris Davis....someone with question marks, but with the potential to fill a hole for the team going forward.

The Rays will have plenty of time to make moves over this offseason -- and making no trade is better than making an unwise trade -- so all is certainly not lost. I'm just disappointed with how the trade market worked out and disappointed with how this team looks (right now) heading toward 2012, so I needed to vent. If you made it this far, thanks for listening.

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This is such fucking bullshit on the Rays part.

The difference in attendance between this year and last year is not worth $30 million. I don’t mean to sound like the average Bay area fan, but if you can’t afford a $60-65 million payroll, you are lying.

@ptSuttery

by Suttree on Aug 1, 2011 10:09 AM EDT reply actions   2 recs

Going into 2012, the Rays have multiple holes on offense -- shortstop, first base, and DH -- and they can't fill them with top prospects; the Rays have no more top position prospects coming up until Tim Beckham and Hak-Ju Lee reach the majors. So what can

I’ll be writing more on this (and other flaws in the system) tomorrow, but basically I agree 100% with your post. I wouldn’t quite pencil Jaso in yet (also: your projected roster lacks a backup catcher), I think Chirinos and Lobaton may have a shot

(Sorry, for some reason I can reply to posts but not post regularly)

Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com

by Imperialism32 on Aug 1, 2011 10:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I know the "projected" was missing the backup C.

I figured it wasn’t perfect, since Chiri should ideally be in there too, but it was mostly for the purposes of salary. And it doesn’t change the larger picture by much.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Aug 1, 2011 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

Also, this

Sandy Kazmir posted this yesterday but the Rays get what, 30M in revenue sharing? The attendance isn’t so bad that we can only pay 10 mil out of pocket

Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com

by Imperialism32 on Aug 1, 2011 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

Personally, I don't know enough around the team's financials to speculate on this...I tend to leave it to the pros that know that stuff.

But I’d personally be skeptical of saying the Rays are necessarily “lying” about not being able to afford a $60m payroll. There’s so much more that goes into paying for a franchise than just the ML payroll.

The Biz of Baseball / Maury Brown has basically said that even with revenue sharing, the Rays can only really turn a profit around the $40-50 million mark:

But, in looking at the financials of the Tampa Bay Rays show that while modest profits have taken place, without revenue-sharing (and the good fortune of making a run in the postseason in 2008), Tampa Bay would have shown a loss, not profit.

He’s written plenty on the Rays, so just look around.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Aug 1, 2011 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

Also, NBA team financials claimed losses.

I’m sure Maury Brown is a smart guy, but there’s a lot of bullshit that goes into team finances.

@ptSuttery

by Suttree on Aug 1, 2011 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

I don't see how they can do that.

Regardless of financials, they want to paint a picture that will get them a new stadium. Raising your payroll after a season like this doesn’t seem like the way to do that.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Aug 1, 2011 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions  

The stadium debate is politics more than anything.

Common sense goes out the window.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Aug 1, 2011 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions  

Bad baseball, definitely.

Bad business? They’re still going to be competitive next season, so I dunno about that.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Aug 1, 2011 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

So pay $10-15m more for a slightly improved chance of drawing in that much?

It’s a continuum more than anything. How much more payroll is worth a shot at the expected payout?

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Aug 1, 2011 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

Listen, I understand everything the Rays have done this year.

There really isn’t a move that isn’t at least justifiable. But, if the Rays claim poor and don’t spend 60 million next year, they’re full of shit.

@ptSuttery

by Suttree on Aug 1, 2011 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

Possibly.

But possibly not. You’re being way too black-and-white about this, which is the main reason I’m taking the other side. We really don’t know, but it’s not unreasonable to expect that they’re pulling in a slim profit in the 40-50m range.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Aug 1, 2011 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

All the proof I've seen otherwise doesn't back this up.

So you’ll have to lay this out and cite some good sources before you can convince me of this.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Aug 1, 2011 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

AKA: Baiting you into writing.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Aug 1, 2011 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

Exactly.

Frankly, the team needs to open their books, if only to elected officials, before a new stadium gets approved. The bullshit needs to stop somewhere, because the Marlins stadium debacle was a tipping point for this kind of wool-over-eyes crap.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 1, 2011 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

The second they make that public information to anyone the second it's released broadly

Sunshine laws would make even the most incompetent sports reporter look like an all star. Can’t open Pandora’s box like that

@SandyKazmir

Sometimes you eat the bear...

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 1, 2011 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

There is an exemption in the Sunshine Law for economic development negotiations.

I imagine whatever municipality they’re negotiating with could invoke that exemption to protect the financials from public disclosure. That, of course, means that people would have to trust their public officials to make decisions for themselves about what they see while public opinion is blind.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 1, 2011 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

lol

Yes, increase from 19k to 22k.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Aug 1, 2011 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions  

More tv revenue.

TV ratings are down this year.

@ptSuttery

by Suttree on Aug 1, 2011 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

That has no effect on their revenue.

They’re locked into a long-term contract right now. The only way they’ll get more/less revenue from that is whenever it comes up for renegotiation.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Aug 1, 2011 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

Creates the RES Network

Maddon's Mission
Make you want to kill him, then make you want to love him. Sly.

by Jonah Keri on Jun 19, 2010 10:31 PM EDT

by Doug09 on Aug 1, 2011 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

Also, this.

If you’re basically admitting at the beginning of the season that the playoffs are a long shot (which is exactly what the Rays did), then how can you expect people to come?

@ptSuttery

by Suttree on Aug 1, 2011 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions  

The off-season moves certainly gave the impression that the team was half-assing it for this year.

And the first ten days of the season did a lot to extinguish whatever residual optimism was left.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 1, 2011 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh wait, or am I wrong?

Now I’m forgetting if the Oakland deal is done, or still disputed.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Aug 1, 2011 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

Still in dispute whether it'll be in Fremont or San Jose.

Even if that were the case, the stadium isn’t even under construction yet, so it’s not like they’ll immediately reap the benefits the way the Brewers and Yankees did.

@ptSuttery

by Suttree on Aug 1, 2011 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions  

They're going to have to become the Giants' bitch to get into San Jose.

Just like the Nats had to bend over to Peter Angelos to move from Montreal. That will crimp revenue opportunities, and Wolff is just as opposed to staying in Oakland as Sternberg apparently is to staying in St. Pete.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 1, 2011 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yaaaarp

Trust the Process Sutty!

I do this for free

by SRQman on Aug 1, 2011 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

Well the track record speaks for itself

When they took over in 06 they stated that they would incrementally ratchet up payroll. People got pissed when 07 started and the payroll was actually lower, but then it slowly came up until 2010 when the damn broke. We may see payroll maintain this level or even slightly drop, but Price/Longo/Zobrist alone will have it back up in the 70s in a few years alone.

@SandyKazmir

Sometimes you eat the bear...

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 1, 2011 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions  

"damn broke"

I have a bridge in Tampa Bay to sell you if you actually believe that.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 1, 2011 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

For 2012, that chart could have Joyce DH

And Guyer in RF. Isn’t Guyer really good on defense? Joyce has the bat for the DH spot. Maybe the Rays should be looking for an every day OF, rather than a DH, if they don’t want Guyer starting.

Trade BJ, please!

by SandalsNoPants on Aug 1, 2011 10:10 AM EDT reply actions  

Obviously bullpens are impossible to predict

but that current one looks pretty bad

Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com

by Imperialism32 on Aug 1, 2011 10:15 AM EDT reply actions  

Well, maybe not as bad as I thought

But it does depend on unproven Gomes/DLR and unproven post-injury Howell, plus Farnsworth to repeat his success

Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com

by Imperialism32 on Aug 1, 2011 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

6 man rotation is a good idea.

Let’s make it 7 when Moore is ready in 2013

I do this for free

by SRQman on Aug 1, 2011 10:17 AM EDT reply actions  

I don't think that looks so bad

Especially once we trade one of our six (or eight) starting pitchers, all of which are cost controlled for at least two more years. Trading for a 1B/DH also seems silly, I’d rather the Rays continue to focus on getting up the middle players.

by Barnacles on Aug 1, 2011 10:18 AM EDT reply actions  

The roster for next year isn't bad...it's just nearly the exact same squad the Rays are fielding right now.

If things break well, it’s a contender. But things don’t always go that way.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Aug 1, 2011 10:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

You have to figure players get better as they get closer to or in to their prime.

You also have to figure at least one SP will be moved along with prhaps Beej. Those returns may fill one of the holes.

by rglass44 on Aug 1, 2011 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, that's my main hope too.

And why I think next years team will still look quite good once the dust settles. There’s just a lot of question marks still, and I do hope we manage to fill some immediate holes with trades.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Aug 1, 2011 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

"and I do hope we manage to fill some immediate holes with trades."

Oh we will Steve…. with prospects in A+ ball.

Maddon's Mission
Make you want to kill him, then make you want to love him. Sly.

by Jonah Keri on Jun 19, 2010 10:31 PM EDT

by Doug09 on Aug 1, 2011 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

If you are complaing about not getting Brandon Allen or Chris Davis

then that seems nitpicking. They will likely be just as available again this summer. The packages we could have had for Upton were utter crap. A better player (Bourn) got four meh prospects and the Nats wanted to send us relievers. No thanks.

by Barnacles on Aug 1, 2011 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, agreed...I am largely nitpicking.

Probably a sign that we’re spoiled by the Rays’ FO more than anything.

But I think the larger point I was driving at was a philosophical difference…being more aggressive in selling off the spare parts. Maybe Frieds was and we still didn’t get any offers…no real way to know. But that’s what I was trying to drive at.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Aug 1, 2011 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah it's disapointing that FLop was the big trade

But considering the crap out there and AF’s appendix, I think we all just need to be patient and try to enjoy watching the Rays try and win every game 1-0 for the rest of the year.

I was trying to find the Rays depth chart from 2005 or 2006 for comparison. I think the comparison would be enjoyable.

by Barnacles on Aug 1, 2011 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

Well said, John "Barn of" Cleese

@SandyKazmir

Sometimes you eat the bear...

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 1, 2011 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

This, Allen is really overhyped right now

In the offseason there may be more Upton suitors and players in packages that can fit existing holes

Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla

by FreeZorilla on Aug 1, 2011 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

If Longo had a .380 wOBA instead of .340 and Joyce doesn't ding his shoulder how much better does this team look?

Even some of the better lineups in the league rely on 2-3 very good hitters and then play matchups after. Only the Yanks/Sox run out a lineup that has no holes. If we take this exact same lineup into next year, but get normal years from Longo and Joyce and Zobrist then we’re going to win more games. As good as we’ve pitched we could have 5 more wins at a minimum if those guys were hitting the way they’re capable of.

@SandyKazmir

Sometimes you eat the bear...

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 1, 2011 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

Only argument: we don't know if this isn't Joyce's ability.

His wOBA is practically the same as last year. Longoria is really the only person underperforming.

@ptSuttery

by Suttree on Aug 1, 2011 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'm highly encouraged that this is close to Zobrist's true level, obviously he's in a hot streak now, but if he's a .365-.375 wOBA batter with that glove then he's only slightly less valuable than Longoria

I think Joyce can do more. The shoulder is really bothering him as I think it’s sapped all his power he’s now gotten so pull-heavy to compensate that he’s an easy out. Loved the dubsack yesterday so maybe I’m wrong and it was just a slump. Or perhaps it’s feeling better, who knows. Either way I’d love to see him get fitted for a 1B mitt over the winter. Guy looks just like Brad Hawpe though not nearly as miserable in the field.

@SandyKazmir

Sometimes you eat the bear...

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 1, 2011 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

Is this sarcasm or no?

@SandyKazmir

Sometimes you eat the bear...

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 1, 2011 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I'm on board with it, for sure.

Only problem with it is that it might open up a hole at 2B, since it could force Zobrist back out into RF.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Aug 1, 2011 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

But then that leaves us an even larger hole at SS.

We’ll really have to see how the end of the season plays out. But I’d love to keep Zobrist at 2B because I feel it makes our MIF stronger…especially with so many questions around SS.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Aug 1, 2011 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's a lot easier to swallow an auto out with great defense when the rest of the lineup can actually hit

Brignac can only hit better though he sure hasn’t given much confidence even in Durham

@SandyKazmir

Sometimes you eat the bear...

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 1, 2011 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Our middle infield has been atrocious sans Zobrist for some time now.

I’d prefer to keep him there, and look for an upgrade in right field via free agency or trade.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 1, 2011 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Perhaps.

I think first base or right field is a prime target for an upgrade, but in either case, I’d like to see Zobrist stay where he is. He’s immensely valuable for the offense he provides in the MIF, and is much more difficult to replace there than our present production on the right side.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 1, 2011 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Have to wonder if his most recent hot streak has anything whatsoever to do with playing 2B everyday

I’m not one to believe in that sort of thing that consistently playing the same position leads to better, more sustainable offense, but I like this version of Zobrist immensely

@SandyKazmir

Sometimes you eat the bear...

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 1, 2011 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

no, serious

I was championing this idea this Spring

I wonder if giving Joyce a look at 1B is a consideration
by FreeZorilla on Jan 13, 2011 8:09 AM PST on Links and News: Andruw Jones, J.P. Howell, Grant Balfour, Jose Veras on DRaysBay

Zobrist has a career 22 UZR/150 in RF. Joyce is about 7. Plus Joyce had the arm issue last year. Could always DH Joyce too.

Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla

by FreeZorilla on Aug 1, 2011 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

You know that they say, January is the dawn of Spring

The caller said the boy, after removing the bulb from its socket, left the building and threw the bulb on the ground. When the bulb broke, the caller said the boy screamed "ooooown u poop"

by Top Gun Numba 1 on Aug 1, 2011 10:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

DON'T CALL IT A COMEBACK!

Never really left though he’s really seeing the ball well right now. Even when he makes an out it’s a hard hit ball or a strikeout following several fouled off pitches.

@SandyKazmir

Sometimes you eat the bear...

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 1, 2011 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

You can probably dig up some quotes about me being sour on him, but as I straddled the fence I ended up facing the side that pointed towards him

putting the injuries of last year behind him and getting right back on the horse and riding. I’m sure I spilled ink about him being a bum as I have for every player at some time or another. Eventually I’m able to combine the emotional with the rational and come up with a sound point of view. At least that’s how it feels in my brain as I kick around pros and cons.

@SandyKazmir

Sometimes you eat the bear...

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 1, 2011 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes, yes I did

Though I agree with rglass below that I was unsure what kind of pop he would have this year. Power and patience, wish we had more guys like him.

@SandyKazmir

Sometimes you eat the bear...

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 1, 2011 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Also Steve it was better to just accept early that nothing was happening

and if something did to be surprised. Even so this deadline sucked, mostly the Rasmus deal.

I do this for free

by SRQman on Aug 1, 2011 10:24 AM EDT reply actions  

If only we had Corey Patterson and a few relievers we could have gotten him!

Maddon's Mission
Make you want to kill him, then make you want to love him. Sly.

by Jonah Keri on Jun 19, 2010 10:31 PM EDT

by Doug09 on Aug 1, 2011 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

But if I accepted that, I still would have been frustrated.

The point is I feel the Rays should have been more aggressive in trading away guys, even just the spare parts guys without much value.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Aug 1, 2011 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

Damn Appendix's

Maddon's Mission
Make you want to kill him, then make you want to love him. Sly.

by Jonah Keri on Jun 19, 2010 10:31 PM EDT

by Doug09 on Aug 1, 2011 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

Oh I'm frustrated.

Rasmus trade alone made me want to throw stuff.

I do this for free

by SRQman on Aug 1, 2011 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions  

You didn't throw anything?

Weak

Maddon's Mission
Make you want to kill him, then make you want to love him. Sly.

by Jonah Keri on Jun 19, 2010 10:31 PM EDT

by Doug09 on Aug 1, 2011 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

I would've been fine with them dealing Peralta.

As I think his value is close to peak, but Farnsworth could be a contributor to this team next year. I wouldn’t have minded dealing Niemann, either, given the surplus in the rotation and my perception that his value is as high as it’s going to be.

As for Upton, I’m one of those who can’t shake the idea that he’s not playing to his potential and that he’s a valuable presence even despite that. I wouldn’t mind having him back next year for a couple million more, and seeing if his stock improves or if a multi-year deal is possible. Either way, I don’t see his value being significantly less, as I don’t think the service time issue is nearly as much of a concern to other teams as it is to us.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 1, 2011 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Alex Acropolis is that one asshole on Price is Right that just bids a dollar higher each time

We bid $0.75 for Rasmus, that asshole bids $0.76. Do have to give credit for finding out that the Cards were after Edwin, then going out and making that deal with Kenny to get the centerpiece for his deal. That took imagination, information, and execution. All things that we did not see from AF on this deadline.

@SandyKazmir

Sometimes you eat the bear...

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 1, 2011 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

Alexilalas

he came to the game ready to play. based on his short track record he looks like a top 5 GM to me

by joaker5 on Aug 1, 2011 7:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

This one?
but he will need to be traded this offseason to give the Rays some wiggle room for 2012.

Kind of sad when you need wiggle room with a $30M payroll :(

Maddon's Mission
Make you want to kill him, then make you want to love him. Sly.

by Jonah Keri on Jun 19, 2010 10:31 PM EDT

by Doug09 on Aug 1, 2011 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

Actually, more the line about his extension.
For him to stick around in Tampa Bay, he’d have to sign a long-term extension that would keep his salary around the $4-5 million level, and there’s little incentive for him to sign such a deal right now.

Not sure why he seems to think Upton not getting traded = Upton signing an extension.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Aug 1, 2011 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

What would he get on the open market?

Maddon's Mission
Make you want to kill him, then make you want to love him. Sly.

by Jonah Keri on Jun 19, 2010 10:31 PM EDT

by Doug09 on Aug 1, 2011 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

Well, he's getting paid $5m right now in Arb2.

So a good chunk more than that, I’d imagine.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Aug 1, 2011 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

Probably 5/40 to 4/40

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Aug 3, 2011 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Bullshit.
but he will need to be traded this offseason to give the Rays some wiggle room for 2012.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 1, 2011 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

If he won't re-sign then he needs to be traded.

No reason to risk him not qualifying for draft picks.

by R.J. Anderson on Aug 1, 2011 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Why would he not qualify for draft picks?

He’s said he wants to stay here, he just hasn’t gotten the right offer. Whether that offer comes or not is irrelevant to the fact that starting next year with him on the team would be completely prudent.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 1, 2011 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

And no, if he's making $7m next year and it's a $50m payroll, then I don't want him on the team.

I love Upton and I will always root for him to succeed, but this team needs a better 1B, DH, possibly C and/or SS, and a new pen and bench piece before next season more than it needs another OF. Guyer will be 26, Jennings can handle center, Joyce can do his thing, and Fuld is a fine fourth outfielder. There’s no reason to spend $7m on Upton when the team needs upgrades at other positions.

by R.J. Anderson on Aug 1, 2011 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

He doesn't have the leverage Upton does, so something considerably smaller.

He’s also older, I believe, so something that buys out a FA year or two.

by R.J. Anderson on Aug 1, 2011 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think at this point, if you're talking about an extension that buys out his arb years and some FA.

You can’t say that his price would be “considerably smaller” than Upton’s, considering the performance of both over the last two seasons.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 1, 2011 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Joyce is pre-arb, Upton is not.

Joyce didn’t get a huge signing bonus from the drat, Upton did.

They aren’t going to run the same costs. Don’t pretend they will.

by R.J. Anderson on Aug 1, 2011 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

They're not going to have the same costs, and I wouldn't delude myself into thinking otherwise.

But I don’t see how he agrees to have his arb years and some FA bought out without a substantial commitment from the team. And considering the fact that he’s still nothing more than a really good platoon player, I don’t see why you’d be in a rush to do that.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 1, 2011 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is a strong position, but I wonder how the team can fill all those holes on $7M. No slight to AF & Co. but $7M this offseason got us a meh DH and a quitter

I think you can improve two positions internally by moving Joyce to 1B and keeping Upton and Jennings in the same outfield. I have not looked at potential free agents and trade ideas are an exercise in masturbation, but I would prefer to allocate that money to a proven above-average performer. It will be exciting either way to see how this plays out

@SandyKazmir

Sometimes you eat the bear...

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 1, 2011 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Removing Upton from the outfield opens up another hole. The replacements you identified are insufficient for all three spots.

Seven million dollars for one year is not unreasonable, quit being brainwashed into thinking that anything over league minimum is overpaying. The fact of the matter is that he is our asset, and we need to maximize the value of that asset, whether to keep here or trade elsewhere. All the positions you identified are needs, but Upton’s contract is not legitimately back-breaking. I refuse to believe that.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 1, 2011 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

Excuse me, but where did I say Upton would be overpaid?

Seven million isn’t overpaying him, I’d just rather allocate those funds elsewhere.

Don’t give me that brainwash bull either. I don’t approach this as some fantasy game where revenue streams magically pop up. I work under conservative estimations and I want to win more than I want to have players here forever. Don’t pretend you’re somehow a better fan because you’d rather lose and have Upton around than win and never have more than three or four players here for longer.

by R.J. Anderson on Aug 1, 2011 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's not like I LIKE working within a $50 million budget on these things, but you have two choices:

1) Accept it and move on
2) Be angry, don’t accept it, and just be angry anytime a roster move with financial ramifications is made.

I chose the former. I hope one day we don’t have to deal with it, but for now, that’s life.

by R.J. Anderson on Aug 1, 2011 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

The problem is that budget is self-imposed.

Fifty million dollars is an arbitrary number and you’re acting like it’s the breaking point for the team, financially.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 1, 2011 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Of course it's arbitrary, but it's a slight raise over this season.

And no, I don’t know what the breaking point is, nobody outside of the org does. The difference is I’m not arrogant enough to think I know all about their finances.

by R.J. Anderson on Aug 1, 2011 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Maybe, but why quibble at the margins?

When a bit more invested can maximize the window for competition?

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 1, 2011 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm not quibbing at any margins.

I just threw $50 million out there as a baseline number. I just don’t think this team should commit $7m (and that’s just an arb guess) to Upton given the depth they have in the outfield with the other positions that need upgrading. That can change if we’re talking about $7m out of $70m, but until it appears they’re going that far, I’m not going to pretend they will.

by R.J. Anderson on Aug 1, 2011 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Are Arb and Elias rankings so out of whack with each other that he isn't Type B, but will still command a $2M raise?

I always thought they tracked closer. Not saying that the difference between 6 and 7 is more than one.

@SandyKazmir

Sometimes you eat the bear...

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 1, 2011 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Arbitrators are LCD analysts, so they're looking at a lot of the same things.

I guess it just depends on how well you think Larry Reynolds can argue a case and show the context of Upton being a center fielder. Remember, Elias throws all OF, 1B, and DH in one pot, which hurts Upton considerably.

by R.J. Anderson on Aug 1, 2011 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't know that $70 million is even necessary.

But regardless of what the figure is, within reason, you have to ask if the team is maximizing the value of its asset by dealing Upton now. Clearly, based on the returns, it would not have. He can still be a tremendous value to this team in a somewhat cost-controlled way next year, and we can re-evaluate his role with the team then.

I think his value can only improve since his production seems to have bottomed out where it is now, and if that’s true he can be dealt next year without much return lost. If, however, he improves then he is not only a tremendous player to have on the field for a team attempting to compete, but he would also bring back a stronger return.

I also don’t see our outfield depth as particularly great, since I don’t consider Guyer a sure thing and see B.J. as pretty valuable in center.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 1, 2011 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Why do you think his value can only improve?

Is he not playing at the same level as last season or thereabouts? Yes, you would think inching closer to his prime would help, but it hasn’t this year, and now teams are going to have a half-season less to play him and consider an extension.

by R.J. Anderson on Aug 1, 2011 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Is he not playing at the same level as last season or thereabouts?

No, not at all.

by internet commenter on Aug 1, 2011 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

He's better than '09, worse than last year.

I think he ends up at around at least an average of the last two seasons when this one is said and done.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 1, 2011 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

What I'm saying is that his value can't appreciably decrease, and there's a decent chance that it could increase significantly.

He’s valuable as it stands now, but given the poor market this year for sellers this year, I can’t imagine that he wouldn’t return just as much next year as he would this year as a baseline, even with looming free agency taken into consideration.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 1, 2011 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

To be fair, I never said he should be dealt for whatever.

I wanted at least market value. If they didn’t get that, then I am very glad they held onto him. No reason to make a bad deal at the deadline instead of making a good one in the offseason. Same with Shields. The only players I would’ve put more of an emphasis on trading are the vets who I wouldn’t want back next year who aren’t bringing a pick back. And as we established, it’s not like many good teams want Kotchman or Damon anyways.

I am curious to see if someone like Juan Cruz won’t be dealt through waivers once he returns.

by R.J. Anderson on Aug 1, 2011 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

And that's fair.

I just don’t think it’s an imperative to trade Upton even this winter, and certainly not Shields.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 1, 2011 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'd rather not trade Shields, lest a team really come hard.

I’m just someone who wants something rather than nothing once a player leaves. I also clearly have more faith in Guyer than you do. I think that explains most of the differences here, as I wouldn’t be as willing if it meant Justin Ruggiano would be our new left fielder.

by R.J. Anderson on Aug 1, 2011 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

I wonder what the Pirates were offering for Kotchman?

Because there could be merit to the idea of trying Joyce at first base and bringing Guyer up to play in the vacated outfield spot, to get an idea of where he’s at as a major leaguer.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 1, 2011 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

I asked a friend in the PIT FO and he said they didn't have interest.

It’s possible the rumor was born from the Pirates just inquiring on his availability and nothing of real interest. It’s also possible he was just lying.

by R.J. Anderson on Aug 1, 2011 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed, no imperative to trade Shields at all.

And they can even keep Upton if they structure things right and want to do it. For all my arguing, I’d be fine if they opened the year with him in CF…it’d make for a stronger 2012 team.

I just think it’s going to be more difficult for them to keep him than you do, that’s all.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Aug 1, 2011 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Also depends exactly where they set their salary cap.

If they set it at $50m, then they’ll have no room to fill out their roster unless they shed payroll.

Which seems silly…my hope would be they wouldn’t set themselves to that hard a cap. But we won’t really find that out until this offseason.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Aug 1, 2011 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

True.

Trick is, they did that in 2010 too. It’s tough to say how many times you can reach above and beyond your limits like that….I have no idea that plays out in the FO right now.

I guess what it boils down to is there’s a lot of uncertainty about the payroll next season, while that dictates a lot of the Rays’ potential moves. So….tough to say.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Aug 1, 2011 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't get why the cap would be at 50m, though.

They spent 76m in 2010. That was their absolute threshold. Why is 60-65m such a reach after one season?

@ptSuttery

by Suttree on Aug 1, 2011 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't think the team needs to go significantly higher than $50 million.

Much less $60 million, so I don’t think it would be nearly as “straining” as 2010.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 1, 2011 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'd be cool with a ~$55m budget.

That’s more than enough room for the Rays to put a pretty sweet team out there, even if they keep everyone and arb gets expensive.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Aug 1, 2011 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

+1

55M is enough for this FO to be competitive. It should allow just enough flexibility for a few FA signings to add to the core.

Twitter: @mbleazy

by MikeB. on Aug 2, 2011 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

Welp, did you read the article?

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Aug 1, 2011 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Maybe a little more for arb.

If we actually do snag a Berkman/Swisher type, that puts us in the playoff range.

@ptSuttery

by Suttree on Aug 1, 2011 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't think it is likely that they keep him, because it would be difficult to do, all things considered.

If you read the reactions of vox populi to the inactivity at the deadline, the consensus is disappointment that Upton wasn’t dealt. It would be easy to cut bait with him as soon as possible, and the backlash would be as minimal as possible for any player with his track record of service in the organization.

But that’s also somewhat of a barometer of his value, which I think can be higher if the team invests in keeping him around longer while receiving ongoing dividends from his play in the near-term.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 1, 2011 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

See, I kinda think that Upton is what he is at this point.

I’m not too convinced he’s going to increase his trade value at all by getting more time. But he’s also a really difficult one to project.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Aug 1, 2011 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yep.

If he’s a 330 wOBA with +5 defense at age 27-28, teams will still give up exactly what they would this coming winter.

@ptSuttery

by Suttree on Aug 1, 2011 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

That doesn't work like magic.

His issue is still contact, and that’s not necessarily something that will improve by reaching his physical prime.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Aug 1, 2011 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

And we're still ignoring some serious questions about how he will age

With respect to:

1) Dependency on athleticism more so than technical prowess on defense and on the paths.

2) How the turf will affect his athleticism.

I guess a two-year deal would minimize that, but why would he take it when he could get a longer contact on the open market?

by R.J. Anderson on Aug 1, 2011 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Correct.

I’d still like to do some work on how those players age though.

by R.J. Anderson on Aug 1, 2011 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Those are two fair questions, the second one less so IMO, but:
I guess a two-year deal would minimize that, but why would he take it when he could get a longer contact on the open market?

I’m not absolutely sure that he could get the long-term contract he wants though, based on his level of production and what a team would likely commit to him long-term based on that production level.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 1, 2011 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm kinda in this camp.

I’m not convinced at all that Upton ever “breaks out” or becomes much more than he is right now….a decent bat and solid defensive CFer. I don’t think him getting older automatically means he’s gonna start getting better.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Aug 1, 2011 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed.

I think of him as a three-to-four win player. That isn’t an insult to him at all, he can/has/and will help teams win games, I just don’t know that I believe he has a ton of untapped potential left at this point. And if he does, I’m not sure I feel comfortable paying for something that won’t happen.

by R.J. Anderson on Aug 1, 2011 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

To be clear: This isn't about Upton being overpaid next year or even in the future.

It’s about whether the Rays can afford to pay a three-to-four win player around market price. As it stands now, I don’t think they can.

The comparison I’d make is Shields. I think he’s a three-to-four win pitcher. Look at what he’s making, and ask yourself if B.J. would take that over the next few seasons. Even when you ignore the club options, I’m not sure the answer is yes.

by R.J. Anderson on Aug 1, 2011 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

But you're missing that they wouldn't be paying market price

If going rate is $4.5/win and he’s worth three then that’s 12.5M and four is $18. Getting that for 7-10 is still below market rates

@SandyKazmir

Sometimes you eat the bear...

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 1, 2011 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's for next year.

I don’t know what it would take to re-sign Upton for 2013 and on.

by R.J. Anderson on Aug 1, 2011 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Pena came off the best season in team history to sign a

8/10/12 deal that brought the team $34M worth of production. I may be wrong that the first year is arb, but pretty sure these were all FA years. If Upton could do something like 7/8.5/10.5 with an option or two around 12-13 then I think there is a deal that can be made. He gives up a little for his first two FA years, but has the potential to bank his last two option years even if he never improves.

@SandyKazmir

Sometimes you eat the bear...

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 1, 2011 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

2008 was his first free agent year according to Cot's

Carlos Pena 1b
1 year/$10M (2011)
1 year/$10M (2011)
signed by Chicago Cubs as a free agent 12/8/10
$5M deferred, to be paid 1/2012
3 years/$24.125M (2008-10)
signed extension with Tampa Bay 1/18/08 (avoided arbitration)
08:$6M, 09:$8M, 10:$10.125M
replaced tentative 1 year/$6M deal for 2008
assignment bonus: $0.35M if traded before end of 2009 season, $0.75M if traded after 2009 season
award bonuses
1 year/$0.8M (2007)
signed by Tampa Bay as a free agent 2/07 (minor-league contract)
contract purchased by Tampa Bay 4/07
$0.4M in performance bonuses
1 year/$2.8M (2006)
re-signed by Detroit 2/06 (avoided arbitration)
released by Detroit 3/06, receiving 45 days’ termination pay of $688,525
signed by NY Yankees as a free agent 4/06 (minor-league contract)
released by NY Yankees 8/06
signed by Boston as a free agent 8/06 (minor-league contract)
contract purchased by Boston 8/06
sent outright to AAA by Boston 10/06
1 year/$2.575M (2005)
re-signed 1/05 (avoided arbitration)
performance bonus: $25,000 to 625 PAs
1 year/$0.33M (2004)
1 year/$0.31M (2003)
1 year/$0.202M (2002)
drafted by Texas 1998 (1-10) (Northeastern)
$1.85M signing bonus
agent: Scott Boras
ML service: 7.133

@SandyKazmir

Sometimes you eat the bear...

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 1, 2011 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

You mean 2009.

signed extension with Tampa Bay 1/18/08 (avoided arbitration)

by R.J. Anderson on Aug 1, 2011 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's weird because he had six prior seasons

I guess when the Rays gave him the minor league deal it ignored Arb3 which rolled over to 2008. I’ve never heard of this before but it makes me wonder if the same thing happens with Kotchman who would now be Arb3 going into next year. If so then he’s probably looking at $4M+ award and no way the Rays do that.

@SandyKazmir

Sometimes you eat the bear...

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 1, 2011 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

2001 and 2006 had about 40 games combined.

Factor in off days, and probably 50 or so days of time.

by R.J. Anderson on Aug 1, 2011 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Anybody you can

@SandyKazmir

Sometimes you eat the bear...

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 1, 2011 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes, as is a 3 WAR player

@SandyKazmir

Sometimes you eat the bear...

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 1, 2011 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

"these financial days"

Exactly when do “these financial days” start and end? Projecting becomes more difficult with each year into the future, and when the team can so easily compete in the near-term with a relatively small up-front investment, it would seem foolish to throw that opportunity away.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 1, 2011 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Also worth considering: what's the financial incentive for the Rays to compete?

Unless they make the playoffs, there isn’t a huge financial difference between 19K and 22K, I’d imagine.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Aug 1, 2011 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Depends on the economy.

I really think a contending team can draw significantly more than 22,000 people in an optimal economy. Until then, I think an incentive is still there to move into people’s good graces for a stadium push.

And let’s not discount the fact that all of these guys have huge egos and want to win ASAP, regardless of everything. That’s not to say they’ll go out and spend $50 million tomorrow, but I don’t think they’ll purposefully hold the team back if a relatively modest upgrade would help them significantly towards their on-field aspirations.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 1, 2011 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's going to take a turn around in the economy and addressing the stadium issue.....

    But maybe the simpliest way is to establish a roster of players that the fans can get behind and KNOW that the team they pay to see on the field will stay together for 3-5 years. The names on the back of the uniforms must match the Name on the back for a consistent amount of time to solidify the support.

by budman3 on Aug 1, 2011 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Zobrist, maybe Davis and players that can be signed long term beginning now.

Longoria, Price may be gone when their next deals are due, at the present rate of payroll outlook(I don’t see it changing soon enough). Shields, likewise is on the borderline(despite a contract friendly deal…to most teams but not the Rays). FO has been pretty good at signing their impact players long term early. The problem is becoming they come due at a staggered time. They are in a position then when one guy gets too costly they can’t keep him and that’s followed closely by the next guy and so on…It’s the constant re-loading, which is frustrating to fans. And though the Rays have been able to maintain competitiveness through this, the fans are losing interest.

Brewers seem to have a better idea where they are extending their talent at the same time for similar years in order to maintain a consistent roster 5-6 years ahead. Of course, financially they may be able to do that more than the Rays at this time but the approach seems to be sound.

by budman3 on Aug 1, 2011 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Interesting idea.

I definitely think names mean something, and I’ve heard this point brought up in-reference to the Athletics’ attendance struggles even when the team was good last decade.

The A’s drew well in the late 80s and early 90s with the Bash Brothers corps and all of the recognizable stars, but the teams of last decade with all the interchangeable parts were speculated to have depressed attendance even despite the ultimate winning nature of the teams.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 1, 2011 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

My focus if I was the Rays FO is to begin extending those players who they want to keep long term now, for similar years.

First extend Longoria and Price out about 5/6 years. While their salaries would be higher(and have to be built into future payroll projections) than others, the investment must be made, or else they will be gone.
Guys like Davis and Zobrist have been locked up through 2014/2015. Do the same with guys like Hellickson, Maybe Cobb if his success warrants it. Follow that up within the next couple of seasons with guys like Jennings and Moore(assuming they continue to develop) and others as they progress. While it is difficult to know what the payrolls will be(under the questions surrounding the team) several years down the road, knowing that the core of the team will all be there over that span, is the type of consistency that maintains competitiveness but builds a fan base that is more likely to support the franchise as well.

by budman3 on Aug 1, 2011 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

$243k per dollar of avg ticket price.

So if the avg. price of each additional ticket is 20 bucks thats about $5 mill ignoring parking/concessions.

by rglass44 on Aug 1, 2011 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

It doesn't work like magic, but it's also wouldn't be completely unheard of.

I have to believe that his contact issues are at least partially the result of swing mechanics, which I know nothing about, but if he addresses those I think the sky is the limit.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 1, 2011 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, true. But it's also the case with tons of other players.

It took Bautista until his 30s to straighten things out for him.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Aug 1, 2011 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

When's the last time you saw Beej make soft contact?

Everything he hits is hard he just struggles to make contact.

@SandyKazmir

Sometimes you eat the bear...

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 1, 2011 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

He's shown literally every skill at the MLB level.

Let’s say he breaks out even a little bit and ends up with a 360 wOBA. That’s not neccessarily an elite bat, but with +5 defense, we’re looking at 6 win player, right? That’s worth more than 7m, easy.

@ptSuttery

by Suttree on Aug 1, 2011 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

And you're randomly assuming they have the flexibility to increase the payroll to $60m any year.

NONE OF US KNOW THE TRUTH ABOUT WHAT THE RAYS CAN AFFORD.

We can just make guesses about what they’re likely to do going forward. And if you think they’re more likely to have a $60+ million then $50 million payroll next year, you’re crazy. It’s about making an educated guess, and based on the Rays history, odds are pretty high they keep the payroll low.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Aug 1, 2011 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Their payroll was at $70 million last year, give me a break.

I don’t think it will be that high next year, but to say that it couldn’t increase by $15 to $20 million over present levels is just a reflection of gullibility on your part.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 1, 2011 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm not talking about what they can or can't do.

I’m operating under what seems the most likely. That’s where our thought-processes diverge.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Aug 1, 2011 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm concerning myself with what I feel they should do, with as much appreciation for the circumstances as possible.

Predicting what they’ll do and setting your expectations according to that seems like an exercise in folly.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 1, 2011 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

I won't speculate on what they "should" do in terms of financial because we simply don't know what their financials are.

And we have no way of knowing. It’s pure speculation either way, but I’m trying to base it something more tangible.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Aug 1, 2011 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

According to the best information we have, the Rays made $5m in profit in 2008.

And that’s including a run deep into the playoffs, $30m in revenue sharing, and a payroll almost exactly what they have this season.

Disbelieve those numbers all you want, but unless you present something else to support you, you’re going off guesses and speculation moreso than fact. (Note: I’d love to see you write a FanPost on why you think the Rays can pull in a profit with an increased payroll. I’d find the research fascinating.)

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Aug 1, 2011 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Numbers don't lie, people do.

I’m sure those numbers are valid, but I’m not sure that they tell the whole story, and I’m definitely not sure how much relevance they carry with fiscal year 2011.

I don’t know enough about the way the team operates to chart a path to profit, and I certainly wouldn’t presume to think that the team isn’t already maximizing profit as much as it can right now. The question is, at what level is the break-even payroll point? I’m inclined to think that it’s somewhat higher than $50 million given the payrolls of similarly-sized market teams.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 1, 2011 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Aww, you leave me hanging.

I’m gonna have to do this myself now. Although really, this is probably some tough stuff to estimate.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Aug 1, 2011 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Of course it is, because teams deliberately and thoroughly obfuscate their financials.

I have absolutely no doubt of that, which is why I suspect the FisherPrice edition documents released a year ago don’t tell the whole story.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 1, 2011 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Except these financials weren't released by the team...

they were supposed to be internal MLB financial statements. I’m not sure what reason the Rays would have to misrepresent their financial positions in that situation.

Fuck PlayOnWords!

Boom. Outta Here.

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@ptsuttery

@sternfan10

@Josh_Frank

by Ryan Gilliss on Aug 1, 2011 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

I for one don't believe the Rays are raking in cash

I think they turn a modest profit which they should

by Sveet on Aug 1, 2011 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't think anyone believes the Rays are raking in cash.

But I don’t think it’s unreasonable to believe that they’re a mostly profitable entity, exceptional circumstances like perhaps 2010 excepting.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 1, 2011 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

raking in cash is not what theyre in business to do.

staying cash broke and asset rich is teh name of teh game. paying down their debt and making the franchise more valuable at the same time is where the money is made.

by rglass44 on Aug 1, 2011 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

.
And that those statements were the ones released?

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 1, 2011 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

In any case.

To make such a point, the statements would have to be relatively easy to digest for the purpose to have any currency with a large number of people. For that reason, I very much doubt that they capture the nuances that prove to be significant in a financial realm.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 1, 2011 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I knew there was one other team, I was just forgetting which one.

Figured either Pittsburgh or Kansas City, and David Glass is kind of a sleaze so I wasn’t sure.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 1, 2011 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

And they released one large market team to show...

how much revenue sharing they were putting in. I thought the statements were pretty straight forward, much less complicated than I see in my business.

Fuck PlayOnWords!

Boom. Outta Here.

@RyanGilliss

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by Ryan Gilliss on Aug 1, 2011 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

id say thats the nature of the financials for mlb teams.

it should be surprisingly straight-forward as they wont be sitting on tons of unsold merchandise or whathaveyou.

by rglass44 on Aug 1, 2011 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Excellent post.

I would love to see you expand on this, if at all possible.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 1, 2011 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is good.

IMO, the best measure of earnings or cash flow is to look at your earnings before Interest, taxes, depreciation, and amortization. Or EBITDA in acronym form.

Twitter: @mbleazy

by MikeB. on Aug 2, 2011 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

Sure, but its not changing

Outrage won’t change the budget. I’d rather spend my time playing fantasy GM o how to best allocate it.

Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla

by FreeZorilla on Aug 1, 2011 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yup, this.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Aug 1, 2011 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's great, congratulations for putting on your adult hat, then.

But you’re still allocating out of a number that you made up, and you’re using marginal figures to quash the idea of retaining a player that may well be worth keeping.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 1, 2011 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Where did I say anything about being a better fan?

This has nothing to do with revenue streams magically popping up, it has everything to do with you using “conservative estimations” to guilt yourself anytime you may have the slightest desire to actually see this team spend a reasonable amount of money on a player.

And stop assuming that I want to keep Upton long-term. I simply said that the prospect shouldn’t be dismissed out-of-hand. In either case, I see keeping him next season as a reasonable way to:

maximize the value of that asset, whether to keep here or trade elsewhere

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 1, 2011 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't feel guilt when I want a player here for more than a few mil.

I’d like to see Shields and Longoria be Rays for the entirety of their usefulness. I’m a little tired of people treating Upton like some kind of victim. He’s had chances to re-sign, he hasn’t. It takes two to extend, and if his price is beyond what the Rays value his skills at, then whatever. I hope someone pays him well, it just won’t be TB, so there’s no point in playing heroes and villains.

by R.J. Anderson on Aug 1, 2011 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Mr. maniac may have met his match
I’m a little tired of people treating Upton like some kind of victim

Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla

by FreeZorilla on Aug 1, 2011 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Upton has been mistreated and underappreciated

But the Rays have tried extending him. He isn’t a victim in this case.

by R.J. Anderson on Aug 1, 2011 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

And this argument isn't about victim/perpetrator.

It’s about what he can contribute to this team going forward and where the team can maximize its value from him.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 1, 2011 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

How exactly is an extension going to be reached?

The Rays can’t afford to have him at $7-9m per year….he’d have to come at a discount ($5m-ish) for it to be worth it.

But when he’s entering Arb3, what incentive does he have to do this? Younger players are trading money for certainty, while he’d simply be giving up money and a chance at free agency to stay in Tampa.

In other words, he’d have to be willing to give the Rays a significant “hometown” discount. And I dunno what the odds of that are.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Aug 1, 2011 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

He has the ability to give the Rays a hometown discount, yes.

Bug I don’t know what your point is besides that.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Aug 1, 2011 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

My point was that you said the team can't afford him at 7-9M

I disagree and think they can afford him, but probably prefer to reallocate that risk across multiple players rather than one player.

@SandyKazmir

Sometimes you eat the bear...

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 1, 2011 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

"The Rays can’t afford to have him at $7-9m per year…"

Yes, the only player the team can afford at that level is Pat Burrell. Come on, are you serious with this?

I think he’s amenable to staying with the Rays, but I don’t think a two or three year deal at $7 to $9 mil would be unreasonable for him or the team. It gives him something close to market value while allowing him the opportunity to build his value.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 1, 2011 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't want to sign someone to an extension if it's starting at $7m a year and going up from that..

But I do like the idea of holding Upton, switching Joyce to 1B, and making a big push for next year. I just don’t think he makes sense for an extension at this point.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Aug 1, 2011 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Depends how much the contract escalates.

I think a three year deal that rises from $7 to $10 mil is reasonable, with the third year perhaps being an option.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 1, 2011 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Reasonable deal, for sure.

Question to me is if they Rays do that.

Cons: that still seems a bit pricey.

Pros: The Rays really don’t have much hitting talent coming up through the minors anytime soon. He’d still be a relative deal compared with the FA market.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Aug 1, 2011 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

No offense, but a .315 wOBA isn't the most difficult thing to replace.

But that’s misleading…he’s been in a huge slump recently. Still, he’s not some hitting god we’re talking about…he’s still just a .335-ish wOBA guy.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Aug 1, 2011 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

None taken, it's not my production.

I think his true talent is, consistently, at minimum a .335ish wOBA and that’s nothing to sneeze at.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 1, 2011 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

DJ was groomed to be the future CF'er...Upton is no longer a long term Ray.

He was brought up when the opportunity to move Upton became available. That they couldn’t move him just means DJ gets his experience in LF for now. The plan will be finding either a full time run producing LF’er or working some other platoon system with Guyer/Joyce or some other combination for 2012.

by budman3 on Aug 1, 2011 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

The only way this stuff makes sense is if you do some kind of 3 year deal that buys out two years of free agency with options at the end that increase significantly

Similar to the Shields deal, but you’d have to guarantee the first two years of his options. So something like 7/8.5/10.5/13/13 He gets a guarantee for his Arb3 and trades a few dollars for FA1&2 to guarantee himself the better payday in FA3&4. If he continues the way he’s going he won’t see 13 a year on the FA market, but if he breaks out then he might. If he breaks out then he more than pays for himself and the contract still leaves room to trade down the road.

@SandyKazmir

Sometimes you eat the bear...

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 1, 2011 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

No, but if DJ keeps playing well, they'd be dumb not to trade him

Trade from strength to shore up weaknesses.

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Aug 3, 2011 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

I hope no one finds this offensive, but I almost feel like I am reading the Rays home message board here.

A few points….

I understand the frustration. We all wanted to be sellers for once (excluding Garza and Bartlett), yet the Rays didn’t make any moves. However, it seems like most forget about the offseason. Besides for the relivers (who probably were not going to bring back packages that were close to the other relievers), we probably had Shields, Upton, Damon, and Kotchman available.

Shields: There were not any teams interested in Shields (besides the Yanks) who were really in the playoff race. In fact, I only remmeber the Reds being interested in Shields. The Rays probably need and should get a longer time to scout out who they want, and the Reds are probably not in any hurry. If Shields was to be dealt, it really did not have to be at the deadline.

Upton: Span, Bourn, and Rasmus. That is your answer right there. There were three better center fielders on the market, and two of them were dealt. Seems to me no team was willing to give enough for Upton. All the teams that needed something went ahead and got something else. I don’t see what there is to complain about, since we have no idea what was on the table. He can still be traded at the dealine.

Damon and Kotchman: The Rays were probably offered so little for these two that it was not worth it.

So my point is that the Rays never were in a good position to trade someone NOW. Everyone worth something didn’t have any real need to be traded and probably were better canidates to be traded in the offseason.

by mr. maniac on Aug 1, 2011 10:41 AM EDT reply actions  

I think you're responding to strawmen for the most part.

I don’t see anyone here actually wishing we’d sold Shields or Upton this deadline.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Aug 1, 2011 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

Didn't want Upton traded.

Kind of hoped we traded Shields IF it meant we were getting a middle order of the bat.

@ptSuttery

by Suttree on Aug 1, 2011 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

Actually, your whole post screamed that you wanted someone traded.

And while you didn’t place much blame on Friedman, I could sense a little dissappointment, whcih would have to be directed at Friedman.

by mr. maniac on Aug 1, 2011 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yes, but I was mainly referring to people we aren't going to get anything back for anyway.

And commenting on some opportunities I wish we’d made a play for. But logically speaking and all, I’m fine we kept Upton since the market didn’t work out well. And I’m not a fan of trading Shields at all.

As for Damon and Kotch, even if they don’t bring back much, they bring back something. Unless literally no one out there wanted them….which eh, I suppose is possible.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Aug 1, 2011 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yup. Same with Kotch.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Aug 1, 2011 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hard to imagine the Pirates liked Lee over him.

What do you think the Pirates would have given up for Kotch?

by mr. maniac on Aug 1, 2011 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

You realize, Lee and Kotchman have nearly identical projected wOBAs going forward.

But Lee has more power and a longer track record. So I could see them preferring him.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Aug 1, 2011 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think people wanted soemthing to be excited about over the last two months, either new player or new spects

meaningless baseball is awfully meh. From the orgs perspective, sitting tight may have made sense.

Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla

by FreeZorilla on Aug 1, 2011 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Jennings can make all the difference in the world as we finally have a true tablesetter

If he can keep this up then Jennings, Kotchman, Zobrist, Longo, Joyce, Upton is an extremely balanced lineup from a L/R perspective with strong OBP/contact in front of good SLG/power guys. I would be sad if they all get clicking and this team goes on a real tear only to fall short, but it sure as shit would be a lot more exciting.

@SandyKazmir

Sometimes you eat the bear...

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 1, 2011 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well if Deezy gets on and they either HnR or let him steal then he's on 2nd or third with one out for Zobrist/Longoria/Joyce. That's a good thing

Sure there will be some double plays, but if he steals second and Kotch can pull a ground ball then he’s on third. If they HnR he should either be on second with one out or third with none. All of these are good things.

@SandyKazmir

Sometimes you eat the bear...

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 1, 2011 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Anyone looked at FA CF's for this offseason?

Wondering what the competitive landscape looks like for dealing Upton then.

Another DRB guy on Twitter, @jeffjohn1979

by Mulva on Aug 1, 2011 10:50 AM EDT reply actions  

from there:
Center fielders
Rick Ankiel (32)
Carlos Beltran (35)
Willie Bloomquist (34) – $1.1MM mutual option with a $150K buyout
Mike Cameron (39)
Coco Crisp (32)
David DeJesus (32)
Scott Hairston (32)
Andruw Jones (35)
Nate McLouth (30) – $10.65MM club option with a $1.25MM buyout
Corey Patterson (32)
Cody Ross (31)
Grady Sizemore (29) – $8.5MM club option with a $500K buyout

Nothing there.

by rglass44 on Aug 1, 2011 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions  

DeJesus as a buy-low?

He’s tanking in Oakland currently

Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com

by Imperialism32 on Aug 1, 2011 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions  

If a team is looking for a starter

DeJesus is really the only legit option at CF, no?

The other guys are either crap, old, hurt, or can’t play CF anymore, looks like.

Trade BJ, please!

by SandalsNoPants on Aug 1, 2011 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

Plus, with Bourn finding a new home, he's probably off the market, no?

Slim pickins for a team looking for a CF. Span the only real competition?

Trade BJ, please!

by SandalsNoPants on Aug 1, 2011 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

Span?

What about Revere?

Trade BJ, please!

by SandalsNoPants on Aug 1, 2011 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'm okay keeping Upton, but Neimann should have been dealt (and should be dealt in the offseason)

2011 is a lost cause, but 2012 needs to be in play. Keeping Upton for 2012 is a plenty fine move. Flags fly forever, so there is nothing wrong with seeing how the chips fall early in 2012. If we fall back, then trade him. Sure we wouldn’t get as much as we would in the offseason, but if you don’t EVER go for it, then what is the point? You can’t plan for years down the road, and then when those years become today, plan again for years down the road. A 3 year plan requires you to actually act when year 3 gets there.

Neimann on the other hand is part of a major surplus for the Rays. We can’t do a 6 man rotation. And Matt Moore should be in the rotation in 2012 (he’ll force his way after the break). This means we need to trade someone. We need to keep Shields (see previous paragraph). We need to keep Price (see previous paragraph). We need to keep Hellickson (see previous paragraph). Davis won’t fetch anything close to his talent. That leaves Moore, Neimann, Cobb, and Torres. Moore is untouchable unless Bryce Harper is in the deal. Torres is a bit raw, and we should let him develop more to either fetch more or to see what we got. That leaves Neimann and Cobb. I’m okay dealing either, but I think a Neimann return gets more bang for the buck. Neimann should have been (and still should be) dealt for a future impact bat. That helps solve the offensive woes, and frees up the logjam on the hill.

Then we compete in 2012. Re-evaluate come July 2012 to be buyers or sellers in terms of Upton. Rinse and repeat in 2013 with Price.

I thank Draysbay for proving that Loose Change fanatics exist in mainstream America, and more importantly for Chik-fil-A spicy chicken recommendations. My life is forever changed

by matthan on Aug 1, 2011 10:52 AM EDT reply actions  

For example, if Brandon Allen got dealt for a reliever, we probably could have gotten Goldschmidt for Neimann

And also, I think that the Rays FO focuses too much on “winning” the trade, rather than maximizing the team’s ability. Sometimes you can lose a trade, but make your team better.

I thank Draysbay for proving that Loose Change fanatics exist in mainstream America, and more importantly for Chik-fil-A spicy chicken recommendations. My life is forever changed

by matthan on Aug 1, 2011 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

No way they do Goldschmidt for Niemann

Vroom vroom party starter
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by Imperialism32 on Aug 1, 2011 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

Then toss in Farnsworth or Peralta

Given what relievers fetched, I don’t think it is outside the realm of possibility.

I thank Draysbay for proving that Loose Change fanatics exist in mainstream America, and more importantly for Chik-fil-A spicy chicken recommendations. My life is forever changed

by matthan on Aug 1, 2011 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

Didn't they trade Allen because they had Goldschmidt?

Which reduce his value to the team and make him a little more expendable…

by tallyray on Aug 1, 2011 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

This too

Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com

by Imperialism32 on Aug 1, 2011 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions  

Supposing he continues to pitch well, Niemann should be an excellent trade piece.

I would be concerned about his health, but the Red Sox just traded for Erik Bedard and were interested in Rich Harden, both of whom have substantially higher injury risk.

@ptSuttery

by Suttree on Aug 1, 2011 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

And I'd love to see us shop Shields for a middle of the order.

Price, Hellickson, Davis, Cobb, Moore for 2012, bitches.

@ptSuttery

by Suttree on Aug 1, 2011 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

What a luxury seeing Cobb turn out to be a middle of the rotation guy or better from time to time

Really gives us more flexibility I just hope he continues to miss bats and help the team one game at a time

@SandyKazmir

Sometimes you eat the bear...

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 1, 2011 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

hes a better talbot.

the helly/shields comps dont seem apt as hes a gb-machine. if he can get the k-rate to 7 and drop the bb-rate under 3, then he’ll be SILLY with this defense.

by rglass44 on Aug 1, 2011 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

Helly and Shields are both FB pitchers, though.

This is where Cobb could end up even better as he works a ton on the ground.

by rglass44 on Aug 1, 2011 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

Hence the word "marginally"

Very few pitchers are so lopsided as to give up 6:1 FB:GB

@SandyKazmir

Sometimes you eat the bear...

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 1, 2011 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Over the course of 9 innings...

there are 27 outs. if we assume a hit per inning, and 7 ks in that nine innings, then we’re looking at 29 BIP/9 IP. The difference between a 35% and 55% GB-pitcher is 5.8 GBs per game or .87 on RA. That’s a big difference at the extremes (which is what helly and cobb seem to be at).

by rglass44 on Aug 1, 2011 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's less to do with you and more to do with the notion that getting ground balls is somehow the second best thing a pitcher can do

If the contact is weak then I don’t really care much on the trajectory. Perhaps there is a way to work LD rates in to get an idea of how hard the contact is. If a guy is giving up low levels of liners then he’s probably not getting butchered by either flyballs or groundballs. I thought this was a pretty interesting read: http://www.insidethebook.com/ee/index.php/site/comments/felix_v_weaver_and_or_gb_v_fb/

@SandyKazmir

Sometimes you eat the bear...

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 1, 2011 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

thats interesting, but it seems to be using two outliers to undermine the overwhelming statistical evidnce.

its the basics of dips that 13*hr is the biggest multiplier and thus hrs skew everyting the most. if you hold k/bb constant, then a gber will always be better than a fber in theory.

by rglass44 on Aug 1, 2011 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

I can definitely see what you're saying

MLB-wide I’ve got a wOBAcon of .242 for ground balls, .305 for flyballs, and .731 for liners including ROE and not adjusting in anyway for double plays. I have to admit I did not anticipate that wide of a spread and this leads me to side with your point much more effectively.

@SandyKazmir

Sometimes you eat the bear...

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 1, 2011 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

good stuff on those numbers.

it just seemed the argument that theyre equal undermines dips theory completely, and an era estimator ignoring all BIP data would be sufficient. isnt there a new era estimator that does this?

by rglass44 on Aug 1, 2011 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

I tried my hand at pitch valuing using BIP trajectory REs but my buzz wore off before I could finish and I ended up losing my vision

I’d much rather see an estimator use trajectories with according REs than to base on the results of the BIP. FIP does not account in any way and wOBA uses the results. I prefer wOBA over FIP, but it’s much less practical when comparing across teams rather than within.

@SandyKazmir

Sometimes you eat the bear...

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 1, 2011 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

hrmmm...

a pitching metric that works on a PA-basis using run values for K/BB/etc. and BIP-run-metrics? We could do this, you know.

by rglass44 on Aug 1, 2011 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, just been difficult finding the time

Still finishing up the data entry for my look at AL pitcher allowed wOBA based on the wOBA of all batters faced. Just need to finish up Seattle and that will be out there. If there was less interesting conversation in here it would probably be done by now.

@SandyKazmir

Sometimes you eat the bear...

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 1, 2011 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm not really sure what the discussion is about here.

But I recommend taking a peek at SIERA if you haven’t already. If you’re interested in the GB/FB thing, it incorporates a lot of stuff.

http://www.fangraphs.com/library/index.php/pitching/siera/

/shill

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Aug 1, 2011 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

But if it does....?

I mean, unless you can prove the opposite, all this stuff has been tested significantly before being included.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Aug 1, 2011 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Just because the overall average RMSE is small doesn't mean that it applies well to each pitcher on an individual level

Which I suppose would be a problem for any metric that uses averages.

@SandyKazmir

Sometimes you eat the bear...

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 1, 2011 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes, but that doesn't mean it can't be right 95% of the time (or whatever).

Like Price this year. Normally high K pitchers are better at inducing GBs and getting outs in pressure-situations. But he’s obviously been horrible with RISP this year.

Yet I don’t think that means he’s more likely to be poor with RISP going forward.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Aug 1, 2011 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't think there is any correlation between GBs from K-artists in high leverage other than that better pitchers tend to get better results

Again, weaker contact tends to come from better pitchers whether they are strikeout guys or not.

@SandyKazmir

Sometimes you eat the bear...

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 1, 2011 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

The onus is on you to prove it then.

But this quote is essentially SIERA in a nutshell: “…weaker contact tends to come from better pitchers whether they are strikeout guys or not.”

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Aug 1, 2011 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

On the whole perhaps

adding the context of rival ALE power and bandbox stadiums, that may not be the case for this org.

Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla

by FreeZorilla on Aug 1, 2011 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Unless you're a GB machine, then they're extra valuable.

SIERA’d.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Aug 1, 2011 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

OT, but I find it extremely hilarious that when BP invented SIERA fangraphs was all about proclaiming how it's increased precision was not worth the headache of the extra work

And now that fangraphs has it, Wyers has said that it’s increased precision is not worth the headache of computing the data.

@SandyKazmir

Sometimes you eat the bear...

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 1, 2011 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's a stupid feud.

I wasn’t sold on SIERA until I actually started reading about it to write the Library page. It’s pretty sweet, if for no other reason than it tells us some cool things about what makes a good pitcher.

More process focused than DIPS focused. Which is kinda cool.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Aug 1, 2011 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

This sounds crazy (yeah, it is), but how much better is Teheran than Cobb?

Cobb has as good of a change up, a better curve, more pitchability, and more command. The only advantage Teheran has is his fastball (I still think his fastball is really straight and I don’t think it is more than above average).

How crazy am I? Teheran was overrated before because he matured at such a young age. People need to get over it.

by mr. maniac on Aug 1, 2011 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Teheran may be overrated, but he's still one of the 5 best pitching prospects in baseball.

He has the potential to be a frontline starter, and it would shock me if cobb was that. further, teheran is in aaa, dominating, at the age of 20. hes got a great body/frame with excellent stuff and results.

by rglass44 on Aug 1, 2011 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well, I disagree with that.

To be honest, I haven’t seen him too much (MLB starts and Futures games). But there are plenty of things I could notice….

1. His fastball is stright. THere is no way around this. It has good velocity, but it is straight. The fact that his command of it is average makes it not so good of a pitch.

2. He has a good changeup. This I will give him. It isn’t consistent, but it is good more often than not. Plus pitch.

3. His curve is not good. It flashes plus, but it is below average more often than plus and average more often than either.

4. His command is not that good. Once again, his command is pretty average.

5. People get all excited about young guys. Do you want me to tell you something? Not everyone matures at the same ago. Teheran became physically mature when he was 3 or so years younger than when Moore became mature. Physical maturity is still something people don’t look into.

6. His mechanics are very good though. Clean, smooth, and easy.

7. Projection. I just don’t see it. Normally guys who have projection (and who go through it) gain velocity a little each year. It isn’t happening with him.

Thoughts?

by mr. maniac on Aug 1, 2011 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

we'll see. a lot of this is opinion and arguing opinion is moot.

id take moore over teheran, but teheran over cobb 365 days a year.

by rglass44 on Aug 1, 2011 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Here are the league averages.

http://pitchfx.texasleaguers.com/league-averages.php

I start to get excited when I see vertical movement touching up above 10, though I don’t think anyone averages there. (Grant Balfour – http://pitchfx.texasleaguers.com/pitcher/346797/ – for a bit of fun, change those dates to look at his 2008 fastball vertical movement too). Fastballs with vertical movement well below the average are actually pretty cool too – that’s what a nasty sinker looks like (Fausto Carmona – http://pitchfx.texasleaguers.com/pitcher/433584/)

Same for horizontal movement, though I’m having more trouble finding a decent graph. Guys up around or over 10 are real good. Guys who are below the average here need to have something else going for them or they won’t stick around the majors.

by Whelk on Aug 1, 2011 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes

Assuming that he was really only featuring a standard four-seamer in the little bit of data we have, neither the rise nor the run jump out, but the rise is more clearly unimpressive. I’d bet that when he throws more major league pitches, we’ll see more run as he mixes in a wider spread.

by Whelk on Aug 1, 2011 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

And those averages are so classification influenced

and the classifications have changed. I really just prefer to look at a graph and mentally note the groupings

by Whelk on Aug 1, 2011 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Fousto's Shows a lot more sink

For Teheran, I’m not sure I see a single fastball with under 5 inches of rise. Fousto is in a different league, but you can compare to Britton (http://pitchfx.texasleaguers.com/pitcher/502154/) who dips lower, and with more run.

As I said below though, if the scout’s say it’s plus, I’m not ready to disagree based on this one snapshot looking just at movement and speed. To easy to BS.

by Whelk on Aug 1, 2011 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

So Cobb has much better movement on his fastball than Teheran.

Teheran throws his fastball 2 mph harder. And somehow, Teheran has a plus fastball and Cobb has an average one? Whatever….

by mr. maniac on Aug 1, 2011 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

The problem is that it's really easy to slip into BS

I like the look of Cobb’s fastball on paper a lot. It’s interesting and unusual when paired with the split.

Teheran’s is less interesting, but enough people say it’s plus that I’m willing to bet that it is. I’ll just be slightly less surprised if he struggles.

by Whelk on Aug 1, 2011 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

This might be arguably the greatest 180 on a player in the history of DRB

Only thing that could top it is if RJ starts demanding a Kotch extension.

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by FreeZorilla on Aug 1, 2011 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I guess it is true.

Shows how much seeing a player counts.

by mr. maniac on Aug 1, 2011 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

Haha

There was certainly an enclave of us that thought Cobb wouldn’t amount to much. I was certainly way off base there.

@SandyKazmir

Sometimes you eat the bear...

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 1, 2011 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

The scouting reports just sounded so much like Sonny.

Iffy command? Inconsistent curve? Heck, Cobb has been a model of consistency.

by mr. maniac on Aug 1, 2011 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm not sure thats true

He’s had 3 4 walk games in 8 starts, 3 qualifies hinm for second on the team to Helly. The better version of Talbot comparison isn’t a bad one.

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by FreeZorilla on Aug 1, 2011 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

I kow this sounds strange, but the walks aren't a testimony towards his command.

He pounds the bottom of the strike zone. So he has walked some guys, but he has been able to keep the ball low (showing his command). And one of his walk starts was that first start.

by mr. maniac on Aug 1, 2011 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

1 of 8

I like Cobb a good deal. But he’s had very shiny results. Rays spect pitchers seem to be awfully adept at building unrealistic expectations in their first full season based on 10 or so starts late in the prior year. See Davis and Helly and their FIP projections of 3.50 each of the last two years. Cobb is in-line to be the next one.

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by FreeZorilla on Aug 1, 2011 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

Speaking of Helly, what has been up with his command this year?

Last start was positive, but it hasn’t been what I have expected.

by mr. maniac on Aug 1, 2011 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

squeezed and he has to be fine to avoid hr-issues.

hopefully, as he gains experiience umps will be less demanding.

by rglass44 on Aug 1, 2011 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

HRs have been better than expected I guess.

He is getting squeezed, but I guess I must have had unreasonable expectations for his command.

by mr. maniac on Aug 1, 2011 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sonny showed a lot of promise in his first go around.

I loved 2007 Sonny and wished they never messed with his mechanics and arm slots.

by tallyray on Aug 1, 2011 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

I guess this is true.

Sonny has suckish command now though.

by mr. maniac on Aug 1, 2011 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

His command was very good.

At the time, he had the worst results ever with the K and BB rates he displayed. Thought he’d improve with a better defense, yet his K’s went down and BB went up and he was never the same.

by tallyray on Aug 1, 2011 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

It was good.

I can’t seem to remmeber him in 08 (I didn’t follow the Rays in 07), so I don’t remember his mechanics. I do know that, with the current ones, he seems to struggle staying over the ball and loses whatevery downward plane he should get.

That is something Cobb does well. He isn’t that tall, but he gets good downward action on his pitches.

by mr. maniac on Aug 1, 2011 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thought for sure this was in reference to RJ's new stance on BJ

The caller said the boy, after removing the bulb from its socket, left the building and threw the bulb on the ground. When the bulb broke, the caller said the boy screamed "ooooown u poop"

by Top Gun Numba 1 on Aug 1, 2011 11:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wade Davis

Anyone else out there as concerned as I am about Wade Davis? He doesn’t look as sharp this year and his velocity seems to be down. I understand that at one point he was apparently told to slow it down to get better command but he looks a lot more hittable this year.

by learnedglove on Aug 1, 2011 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sounds like Sox fans think they got Bedard for nothing

but those guys seem like players the Rays might like to get their hands on. Slow starters, but making strides lately in the minors.

How wrong am I?

Trade BJ, please!

by SandalsNoPants on Aug 1, 2011 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

Niemann should have more value in the offseason...

when 25 teams are looking for a starting pitcher to fill out a rotation. There are only about 10 at the deadline, and most are looking for someone who would be a bigger and more immediate impact than Niemann.

by tallyray on Aug 1, 2011 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions  

Depends.

I could see him being a difference-maker for a team right now, with the added benefit of him being not a rental. I don’t really know the market for him, though, since he wasn’t much brought up in trade rumors.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 1, 2011 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Also, if Niemann or Shields (or both) are traded then Upton could be kept

Although I wonder how much of this depends on what Price gets in Arbitration.

by Barnacles on Aug 1, 2011 10:54 AM EDT reply actions  

Upton is a lot less valuable to the Rays than Shields.

Doesn’t Upton’s value to the Rays takes a huge hit if Jennings is able to play CF near the level of BJ? At that point Upton’s value becomes that of a corner OF, and his bat isn’t anything special there.

I wouldn’t be surprised to see BJ get traded for a lot less than expected in the offseason. I don’t think hes $6 million better than a replacement OF once defensive value is reduced.

by tallyray on Aug 1, 2011 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed.

But that’s not the point.

At this point, most of Upton’s value is wrapped in defense. If Jennings can play CF similar to that of Upton, the value the Rays must replace if Upton is gone is:

Upton’s offensive value + the difference in defensive value between jennings in left and the new player.

Confusing equation aside, I think there should be available options for less than $6 million that can fit that bill.

by tallyray on Aug 1, 2011 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'd expect he gets a tryout soon.

The problem is where is he going to play.

by tallyray on Aug 1, 2011 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

Right now?

I suspect he’ll be in AAA till September. Next year, it would be taking over LF if Upton gets traded. Or if we keep all our outfielders, he gets to rotate between RF and DH with Joyce.

@ptSuttery

by Suttree on Aug 1, 2011 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

This year if they can find him ABs,

It’d be nice to give him 100+ PAs to see how he hits in the majors this year. Though not a large enough sample to prove anything, it at least gives them something to think about going into 2012.

Joyce, Jennings, Guyer, Fuld, Damon as an OF rotation wouldn’t be the worse thing if they have confidence in his bat.

It’d be nice if the Rays were able to keep Zobrist at second for 2012.

by tallyray on Aug 1, 2011 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

Zobrist is fucking killer in the OF, but I agree.

I’d rather have Sean Rod and Brignac platoon at SS than Sean Rod/Zobrist platoon at 2B, especially if we have Guyer/Jennings/Upton/Fuld in the OF.

@ptSuttery

by Suttree on Aug 1, 2011 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

He'd be top 3 2nd baseman in baseball.

They’ve played him there every game since sending Brignac down, so I imagine it’s the thought.

by tallyray on Aug 1, 2011 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

it all depends.

if the rays could get a lf for less than beej that provides more value then yes spending on him is inefficient.

by rglass44 on Aug 1, 2011 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

Moving who?

I’m not proposing switching BJ and Jennings. Just saying that if Jennings is able to replicate BJ’s defense in CF, then BJ is a lot more replaceable.

Are you saying the defensive value in LF is worth more and harder to replace than CF?

by tallyray on Aug 1, 2011 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

Your last line is silly and I have no idea how you could have inferred that from what I said

I’m saying that if you think Beej is +5 in CF and Jennings is the same then both are +15ish in the corners much like when we had Craw and Beej here. Put the weaker arm in LF and let them put up a net in the outfield.

@SandyKazmir

Sometimes you eat the bear...

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 1, 2011 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

Much clearer.

The comment wasn’t about switching the two, just moving DJ to center and trading BJ.

I’m under the assumption that it’s easier to make up some of the defensive value in left versus center, but I may be way off about that.

by tallyray on Aug 1, 2011 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Which circles back to my point.

It should be much easier to make up Upton’s offensive value in LF because DJ can make up a great deal of his defensive value in center.

The Rays would have roughly $6 million dollars to play with and not take too large a hit.

by tallyray on Aug 1, 2011 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Still playing for 2012.

That’s the one thing the deadline proved. With this in mind, I’m not sure why everyone is so disappointed a deal wasn’t made.

Two of the three biggest chips at the deadline were Shields and Farnsworth. Though both could have brought a nice return in prospects, trading either would have hurt the 2012 Rays. There are very few players the Rays could have gotten that would have made in difference in the team next year.

I don’t really understand the huge desire to trade Farnsworth. I imagine the Rays signed him to a two year deal planning towards 2012. There are a lot of question marks in the 2012 bullpen and Farnsworth appears to be one of the few strong points. He’d definitely be worth more than his 2012 contract on the open market.

by tallyray on Aug 1, 2011 11:24 AM EDT reply actions  

Don't forget, Farnsworth projects as a Type A free agent.

Depending on what happens in the CBA, they could net picks for him.

by R.J. Anderson on Aug 1, 2011 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Good to know.

And he should have value at next years deadline if the Rays aren’t contending.

by tallyray on Aug 1, 2011 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Position players

This is obviously what the organization is severely lacking in the minors. The Rays have enough pitching to make moves that would bring back some top position players that could contribute by 2013 at the latest. IMO it’s time for the Rays to give up some of the pitching and go after some bats. Hopefully we’ll see this in the off season, but I won’t get my hopes up.

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by ItaliaNole on Aug 1, 2011 11:59 AM EDT reply actions  

Your first line should really address the high minors. The low minors appear flipped with decent enough bats, but few and far between on the pitching front

I’d love to see them bring back on-the-cusp bats and low level pitching, preferably guys that have better tools than numbers at this point.

@SandyKazmir

Sometimes you eat the bear...

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 1, 2011 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm not trading BJ for a reliever and Desmond. So that being the casse the other trade candidates, and i don't consider Shields one of them

are proably going to bring back some A ball types

Don’t we have plaenty of those in the system, and let’s not forget we added 12 more in the first couple rounds in June

No need to trade for the sake of just trading

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by sternfan1 on Aug 1, 2011 12:14 PM EDT reply actions  

Yeeeup.

Excited to see your boy Sean Rod play out the rest of the season at short?

@ptSuttery

by Suttree on Aug 1, 2011 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Welp, this is his opportunity.

I’m more interested to see how his glove plays out at the end of the season. I don’t think he’s suddenly going to hit RHP and I don’t think Brignac’s bat is going to get better in Triple A, but this is a great opportunity for both players to play everyday with an eye toward 2012.

@ptSuttery

by Suttree on Aug 1, 2011 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

"No need to trade for the sake of just trading"

Yeah, but Damon, Kotch, and Shoppach don’t even come close to bringing a comp pick back.

Unless they’re resigned in the offseason (fucking puke) they’re basically wasted space right now.

I'll make out with a guy if he knocks it in
by Jason Collette on Jun 11, 2011 9:00 PM CDT
(Kotchman knocked it in)

by Vin on Aug 1, 2011 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

To be fair, what contender actually wants Damon or Kotchman?

The Pirates were the only choice for the latter, and they aren’t even that good to begin with. The only reason you’d want Kotcman is because he isn’t Lyle Overbay. Damon, what, the Angels or Mariners? Neither would make the postseason with or without. The Yankees could use Damon, but then you’d have people whining about how the Rays give up their good players to the Yankees.

by R.J. Anderson on Aug 1, 2011 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is the same guy who said Detroit was his dream team.

He plays the media and fans well, but I don’t really know how much of it is authentic. It doesn’t really matter as long as he plays well, but I wouldn’t gamble on him for too much longer.

by R.J. Anderson on Aug 1, 2011 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Really?

I guess you do deserve the Red Sox avatar

by Sveet on Aug 1, 2011 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes really.

I didn’t like Crawford attacking the coaches, but what he said about wanting to play for Fenway and full houses is probably true of most of the players. He just doesn’t have a filter to think better of slamming the fans who do show up down here.

by R.J. Anderson on Aug 1, 2011 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

how part time would it be?

and if he’s out for milestones, i would think he is more likely to sign for a reduced rate

Fuck PlayOnWords!

Boom. Outta Here.

@RyanGilliss

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@ptsuttery

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by Ryan Gilliss on Aug 1, 2011 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Look at his walk rate

ESPN has him at 3.97 pitches per plate appearance this year. While still quite good, he saw 4.11 last year, 4.06 the year prior, and 4.10 in 2008

@SandyKazmir

Sometimes you eat the bear...

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 1, 2011 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is the guy who floated the "I'd have a higher batting average if I bunted more guys over" line to the press, right?

Then said “But I don’t really think about it”. He also made that lame Ted Williams comment about how he isn’t Williams but he won a ring in Boston.

I’m sure he’s a nice guy and all, it just feels like he’s hanging on to hit 3,000 so he can get into the Hall. I’d probably feel the same if I were him.

by R.J. Anderson on Aug 1, 2011 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

He doesn't seem like the most "cunning" guy...

maybe, that’s how great of a manipulator he is though?

Fuck PlayOnWords!

Boom. Outta Here.

@RyanGilliss

Also follow my Wolfpack:

@RealNolenBailey

@wtb_tampa

@ptsuttery

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by Ryan Gilliss on Aug 1, 2011 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

No idea.

It’s just a little funny that the fans of the other teams he’s been on could predict what he would say after signing here. Perhaps he’s just the most gracious and nicest guy around. I know he’s won a few polls to that same effect, so it’s not out of the question.

by R.J. Anderson on Aug 1, 2011 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm just saying that he doesn't sound smart enough to willfully be manipulating everyone...

he’s probably just really fucking polite, as well as uncomfortable being interviewed so he relies on a few of the same phrases over and over again. Just my impression.

Fuck PlayOnWords!

Boom. Outta Here.

@RyanGilliss

Also follow my Wolfpack:

@RealNolenBailey

@wtb_tampa

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by Ryan Gilliss on Aug 1, 2011 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Time to start looking for a fulltime DH who can hit for power

And save the platoon flexibility to some other position(SS/LF/1st base/C). This Rays offense screams for a power hitting DH, IMO…especially if you can’t find it elsewhere.

by budman3 on Aug 1, 2011 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

I would love an upgrade

if one makes sense.

But I wouldn’t mind Damon coming back at a cheaper price

by Sveet on Aug 1, 2011 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

I would love to sign a power hitter

but they have probably become the most valuable type of player in the new MLB. There just aren’t that many of them

by Sveet on Aug 1, 2011 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

Than develop a younger one..They are out there.

You give them a chance to earn a position and if they struggle at that, as long as they can hit with power, you switch them to DH.

by budman3 on Aug 1, 2011 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Than develop a younger one. They are out there.

You give them a chance to earn a position and if they struggle at that, as long as they can hit with power, you switch them to DH.

by budman3 on Aug 1, 2011 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

I am excited about the rest of this year

Joe looks like he is getting the ( JOE MADDON ) type players in place.
The sept callups will bring more players into the fold . The rest of this year will show Joe who the players are that want to play here.
I hope Sean Rod steps up and becomes a great SS. That will give us a steady infield with Evan ,S-Rod ,ZO, and Kotch. Thats hard to beat for the money. The outfield ,DH and catcher are the question marks. The off season will tell us what division and league we will be in and Joe and Andrew can fine tune the team at the winter meetings.

by Landlord on Aug 1, 2011 12:55 PM EDT reply actions  

How crazy is it to think that the Rays could end up 3-5 games back int he WC at the end of the year.

Just think. Davis should improve (that last start gives a lot of hope). Longo should improve. Price should improve (well, with RISP). Jennings will play every day. Rodriguez will play over Briggy at SS every day.

by mr. maniac on Aug 1, 2011 12:57 PM EDT reply actions  

Great Post MR. mr maniac

The Rays got off to a terrible start this season, but Joe has pulled the team back together. All this trade deadline crap has destabilized the young players. Joe will now start to put together a team that will go into next year ST with a goal of getting off to a great start.

by Landlord on Aug 1, 2011 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Maddon doesn't put together the roster.

And stop playing pop psychologist. This team isn’t even that young—it has the fourth-oldest average batters age in the franchise history and fifth-oldest average pitcher age.

by R.J. Anderson on Aug 1, 2011 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

You don't have to be a pop psycholigist

Just read the ubaldo story. Why do you have such a hard time believing what you can see. Get your nose out of the book, start talking to some people that have been around the game. A blend of stats and Sternfan old school would do you good.

by Landlord on Aug 1, 2011 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Two of the three biggest chips at the deadline were Shields and Farnsworth. Though both could have brought a nice return in prospects, trading either would have hurt the 2012 Rays.

Disagree here. Trading Upton and Shields would have hurt the 2011 Rays. Forget the Rays are just about dead in the water and attendance is not going to increase the rest of this season. One factor I feel was playing into the FO’s decisions this deadline was not doing anything that would give the fan base the impression that this season was over. Trading either of those guys or selling off Damon, Kotchman, Farnsworth would have been a sign that the white flag was out. This FO would never admit that. Not because they didn’t believe it in their heart but because it cannot afford to risk losing more fans, either through not showing up at the Trop or turning off their TV’s in even more numbers than they are now.

I think there were opportunities to make some moves that would have done two things. Bring ML ready players who might have begun to improve the team on the field now(in filling areas of obvious need(Catcher, LF(if (Upton had been trade and DJ moving to CF), SS, and maybe DH/1st base). But it also would have given the roster a jump start on 2012 by getting young prospects the experience now to get meaningful PT in preparation for next season. I think the Rays fans are smart enough to understand that there are needs that have to be addressed for 2012 and bringing in a couple of young players now would have revitalized them to continue following the team through this season with a much higher anticipation for 2012. There is a growing disinterest, in general, from the fan base in the Rays now and making some moves with next season in mind would have been enough to satisfy them. And make no mistake, that is a concern that this FO has right now but did nothing to address the issue.

Finally, my biggest concern is that when this FO is given the every opportunity to explain what direction this team is heading in, the “pat” answer and the “ultimate goal” is constantly looking to “improve this team”. I find it almost unbelievable that there was no way, in this deadline market and with the players that AF could have moved(and I’m not talking major prospects), there wasn’t any deals… NOT ONE DEAL… out there to improve this team, even if it was just looking ahead to 2012 and beyond. Enough young and close to be ready ML players were moved this weekend for similar players they Rays could have offered, to prove that point. And a good scouting staff could have probably identified even more.

I’m not advocating making a trade just for the sake of making one. And I’m not a firm believer that waiting until the winter increases the chances or a players value in looking for maximum return. But now way to improve the team now? I don’t buy it.

by budman3 on Aug 1, 2011 1:50 PM EDT reply actions  

I'm guessing this was in reference to the post above.

To the first point, I’m of the belief that appeasing the fans ranks near the bottom of the list in reasons the Rays make deals. I can’t think of one move the Rays have made (since ’06) that was made for the fans. Hell, trading BJ would probably have made more people happy than upset. The organization is too smart to get sentimental. They make moves that make baseball and financial sense.

As for the rest, there are very few deals involving Shields or Farnsworth that would make the team better in 2012. These targeted prospects were being highly overrated prior to the deadline. Very few young players come in and produce within their first couple seasons. It just doesn’t happen. Especially catchers. First baseman have seemingly been just as flukey lately as well. For any deal to have benefited 2012, not only would the player acquired had to play up to expectations, but whatever young SP or RP would also have to outpitch expectations.

Not making any significant trades means the Rays are playing for 2012.

by tallyray on Aug 1, 2011 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm not talking about appeasing the fans on a sentimental basis...ie. give them what they want.

It’s about reviving and re-energizing their interest in a team that is frankly not fun to watch and have an identity problem. All moves are made on a baseball and financial basis here…everyone understands that. This team has major positional needs that cannot be solved by spending FA money and are still 2/3 years off from within the system. Acquiring some young talent now gives those guys a chance to get their feet wet now in a down season, begin earning their keep in 2012(when the Rays could still be competitive) and than added to what may be the beginning of a long run starting in 2013.

by budman3 on Aug 1, 2011 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Are the Rays better off from 2013/2014+ then they are now?

Why give up on 2012 and look towards the future? They aren’t in shambles. They have holes, but no more than they had in the past. They don’t have a wave of talent coming in soon. They’re stuck with the talent they have, or they scrap it and build towards the future. It’s an option, I just don’t see why it would be rushed.

by tallyray on Aug 1, 2011 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Who said give up on 2012?

The young talent in the system should be ready by then. I believe adding one or two young pieces now for 2012, speeds up that time frame while improving what the 2012 roster may be. You’re right..they aren’t in shambles. But they have needs and holes that can be filled to make them even better for next year.

Do you really think the fans are going to be excited over looking at the same offensive line-up in 2012?

by budman3 on Aug 1, 2011 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think most would be a lot happier to have Shields in the rotation than having Yonder Alonso at 1B.

In reality, a lot of fans like Damon, Kotchman, etc. Kotchman’s had a terrific year. I think most would be mad that the Rays gave up on Kotchman for some young prospect.

by tallyray on Aug 1, 2011 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think a lot of fans would have been ecstatic to have had Allen instead of Farnsworth

And if there was a way to trade Kotchman, Farnsworth and Davis for Goldschmidt(who is ready to play now), they would be dancing in the streets around the Trop.

by budman3 on Aug 1, 2011 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

No way

Most fans were pissed we traded Kaz

by Sveet on Aug 1, 2011 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Scott who?

Thankfully, I think times have changed.

by budman3 on Aug 1, 2011 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

You must be talking about the casual fans.

Because most knowledgeable ones knew the situation surrounding the Kazmir trade at the time. And everyone else now, if they understand the Rays, have had reality bite them in the ass with not being able to keep Crawford, Pena and realizing what trading a Garza was all about.

by budman3 on Aug 1, 2011 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Most knowledgeable fans
I have a better idea
How about we don’t trade Kazmir for two B- prospects.

Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com
by Imperialism32 on Aug 28, 2009 2:39 PM PDT

by internet commenter on Aug 1, 2011 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

We didn't, we traded him for 4 C- prospects

The caller said the boy, after removing the bulb from its socket, left the building and threw the bulb on the ground. When the bulb broke, the caller said the boy screamed "ooooown u poop"

by Top Gun Numba 1 on Aug 1, 2011 11:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

I disagree.

About as strongly as possible.

I guarantee 90% of fans have no idea who Allen is.

I know who Chris Davis is. I don’t think keeping Farnsworth (even if he was enough) is that bad a move.

I think the Rays would have been crazy to make that deal for Goldschmidt.

by tallyray on Aug 1, 2011 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

They would know who he is if he became a Ray and understand the trade-off.

Or at least the potential in exchange for a closer that the Rays rotate anyway each year(and successfully at that), a surplus arm and a FA to be in Kotchman.

by budman3 on Aug 1, 2011 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

We'll just disagree.

No first base prospect available is close to a sure thing. Trading quality major league talent for such a player is very risky for a team in position to contend over the next couple years.

by tallyray on Aug 1, 2011 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Maybe not...

..but if you can trade expendable parts for a prospect that may be as close to one as there is available AND that guy immediately, not only becomes your best 1st base prospect but could start impacting the major league team now, and will be very inexpensive and under control for the next 5 years…you have to consider it

by budman3 on Aug 1, 2011 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

I totally agree with you

There are pieces the Rays need that they just don’t have in the system, and I think guys like Shields, Upton, Farnsworth, prospects, etc. could have gotten us some of the pieces we needed, if not all of them. The Rays look to have the same roster in 2012 so I don’t know why a lot of people expect much different results. We’ll still be missing a C, 1B, DH, SS, and maybe LF(depending on what happens w/ Guyer) in 2012. Honestly, I don’t expect any of these positions of need to be filled in the off season, at least not w/ some young guys that could potentially be part of a good nucleus.

Non Mollare, non mai mollare!
ItaliaNole A.K.A. SavvysNole

by ItaliaNole on Aug 1, 2011 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

No one was going to give up what Shields is worth

His contract is so good he is practically untradeable

by Sveet on Aug 1, 2011 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Rays could have gotten good returns without trading Shields at this time, IMO.

The Reds may have been the best match-up for a Shields deal, but didn’t happen. But he wasn’t the only Ray that could have brought back some ML ready pieces. Upton, a package of expendable players(looking ahead) or even a Farnsworth for a ML ready prospect were out there, IMO.

by budman3 on Aug 1, 2011 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree... We saw what Zeigler brought back in a trade with the Dbacks

And Farnsworth has been more dominant against batters this season than Zeigler… Zeigler’s contract also expires after this season but is about 3 years younger than Farnsworth.

by TheBeckMan23 on Aug 1, 2011 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Best idea in this thread:

Move joyce to 1b

then keep upton. move guyer to RF

outfield and first base solved.

So find me a DH and an SS.

@dobbertweets

by blackraven on Aug 1, 2011 2:37 PM EDT reply actions  

If we do rotating DH don't we need another bat somewhere?

I mean you could just use the DH to give regulars rest. But then you run into the problem of needing an extra OF or super utility guy.

@dobbertweets

by blackraven on Aug 1, 2011 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

There's always the Canzler delight.

He can play all over, just not well, and gives the team a potentially useful righty bat off the bench.

by R.J. Anderson on Aug 1, 2011 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah without a DH we'd have another bench player need. Most of the time he wouldn't even be required

S-rod can play 2nd, ss, or 3b assuming one of those was DHing that on a given day
Upton, joyce, jennings, guyer, zobrist could field OF anytime
1B could be pretty much anyone

And you’ll have 3 catchers no matter what

@dobbertweets

by blackraven on Aug 1, 2011 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

"3 catchers"

my fantasy approach

@dobbertweets

by blackraven on Aug 1, 2011 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

You have any concerns over his throwing ability?

Seems like everything’s high, even when it’s on time.

@ptSuttery

by Suttree on Aug 1, 2011 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

td32 was saying that his times were good...

maybe something mechanical that is causing him to leave the ball up

Fuck PlayOnWords!

Boom. Outta Here.

@RyanGilliss

Also follow my Wolfpack:

@RealNolenBailey

@wtb_tampa

@ptsuttery

@sternfan10

@Josh_Frank

by Ryan Gilliss on Aug 1, 2011 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

I hope he gets the chance to play out the rest of the year.

Hasn’t hit yet, but if they were willing to give Michel Hernandez a couple hundred major league at-bats. It’d be nice of them to extend the same courtesy to someone who might have upside.

@ptSuttery

by Suttree on Aug 1, 2011 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

It affords the roster space to have a + defensive guy that can only hit righties or lefties like a Sean Rod or Kapler type

The bonus is that those guys are plentiful and usually dirt cheap

@SandyKazmir

Sometimes you eat the bear...

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 1, 2011 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Isn't that how the DH was originally intended to be used?

As a position where the other eight starters could get a lot of the benefits of a day off while keeping their bat in the lineup? It’s not a bad idea.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 1, 2011 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's clearly what it has evolved into.

But my impression is that the advent of a full-time DH didn’t really begin until the 80s, and that the other model was used in the first few years.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 1, 2011 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was thinking this too.....I'd be cool with it.

Assuming they think Guyer can play full-time. And they could always pass Upton at the deadline if they fall out of it.

It would be contingent on dealing a pitcher and raising the payroll some, but it’s doable.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Aug 1, 2011 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Any way the Marlins become a potential trade partner with the Rays for Upton in the Winter?

LoMo – Upton – Stanton in the outfield might sound appealing to them.

Christian Yelich and Marcell Ozuna are intriguing prospects

by TheBeckMan23 on Aug 1, 2011 3:06 PM EDT reply actions  

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