The Downside: Flaws In The Rays Farm System
Just call it Negative Nancy Week here at DRaysBay. In Steve's look at the trade deadline yesterday, he laid out a potential 2012 roster that was pretty underwhelming to some people, myself included (important note: that was pre-Matt Carson blockbuster). It seems crazy that a team with as much talent in the majors to go along with what's probably the top farm system isn't in better position for next year. The fact of the matter is the system isn't without flaws:
1. Lack of a middle-of-the-order hitter in the upper levels - Bats have been the system's weakness for a few years now, a problem the organization has addressed via trade. Here's a quick fun fact: As of this writing, Ben Zobrist's OPS+ is higher in 2011 than it was in 2009. He's already set a career high in doubles and along with a healthy Longoria gives the Rays two very good run producers. But other than those two (we can agree Longoria will better in 2012, yes?), there are questions marks everywhere. Matt Joyce certainly has the power but he's run hot and cold and still struggles with left-handed pitching. Sean Rodriguez hasn't come close to replicating his PCL-inflated power numbers.
Filling in anyone with a pulse at the two positions that have been black holes for the Rays this year -- catcher and shortstop -- will surely help. They have some short-term answers at catcher in Robinson Chirinos, Jose Lobaton, and maybe even Nevin Ashley, but shortstop will take a while. Tim Beckham figures to spend the entire 2012 season with Durham, and barring a breakout his ceiling looks to be that of a slightly-above-average starter. Hak-Ju Lee is the better prospect but I think the Rays will be more patient with him than Beckham as his body has more filling out to do. Even then, he projects more as a leadoff type, which -- while important -- isn't what the Rays desperately need.
Desmond Jennings and Brandon Guyer should be an improvement over Sam Fuld and Justin Ruggiano, but Jennings' on-base/speed combo profiles better as a top-of-the-order player and Guyer has never hit more than 15 home runs in a season in the minors. The potential power bats are in the low, low minors where it's obviously hard to predict anything. Jeff Malm is having a breakout year after a rough 2010 season, Drew Vettleson is crushing Appy League pitching, and Josh Sale probably has the best power potential in the system, but the earliest you might see any of those players is at the end of 2014, and even that's unlikely given the organization's methodical approach.This isn't to say there aren't useful prospects between Jennings/Lee and the short-season guys. Tyler Bortnick is walking more than he strikes out in Charlotte while maintaining a .300 average with 34 steals. Derek Dietrich has some power potential but will need to improve his approach to fully unlock it. Ty Morrison is toolsy, but again, a leadoff-type even if everything goes right.
2. Suddenly-thin pitching depth - This isn't exactly a surprise considering the team is currently operating with a six-man rotation that doesn't include stud Matt Moore, who would be in the majors with just about every other team. But beyond Moore, take a look at the system and tell me what you really like from the pitching side. Alex Torres and Chris Archer have top-flight stuff but neither has ever consistently thrown strikes. Alex Colome's rate stats have taken a step back while Nick Barnese's have furiously backpedaled. Wilking Rodriguez and Albert Suarez have combined for 21 innings. Jake Thompson is striking nobody out. Enny Romero is walking five players per 9 innings and he might be the guy I rate highest from this paragraph.
Because of the focus on hitters in recent drafts, the short-season pitching lacks big prospects. The 2011 draft has helped with Jeff Ames, Blake Snell, Lenny Linsky, and Ryan Carpenter, but the team hasn't had a breakout international signee or later-round pick in a few years. Signing 2011 first-rounder Taylor Guerrieri will surely help, of course.
The pitching pipeline that has delivered so much big-league talent over the past five seasons looks like it may dry up some after Matt Moore. It will be interesting to see if the Rays accelerate the timetables of bats like Malm, Vettleson, and Sale (provided they don't flop) to more closely align with the window of the current pitching talent.
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"It will be interesting to see if the Rays accelerate the timetables of bats like Malm, Vettleson, and Sale (provided they don't flop) to more closely align with the window of the current pitching talent."
lol
Maddon's Mission
Make you want to kill him, then make you want to love him. Sly.
by Jonah Keri on Jun 19, 2010 10:31 PM EDT
Acquire a couple of young, ML ready middle of the order bats with surplus or expendable players
Lower risk, high reward. Fits the payroll, fits the time line,and fits the control ability approach.
And fills the needs that are not going to be met with current prospects in the organization or by signing high cost, older FA’s. Stop the revolving door and construct a roster that the fans can follow and support for the next 5-6 years.
"ML ready"
Maddon's Mission
Make you want to kill him, then make you want to love him. Sly.
by Jonah Keri on Jun 19, 2010 10:31 PM EDT
You're probably going to want to root for another team
Honestly, which teams have more than a couple of guys that play together for some time? Shields has been here since 2006, Zobrist since 2006, Longo 08 to 2017, Crawford was here 9 years. When you acquiesce to these types of fans (the kind that only root for gritty guys that they saw dive once or those that have to have the same cast) your team on the field WILL suffer. How bout you sit back, watch the game, and leave the GMing to the professionals.
@SandyKazmir
Sometimes you eat the bear...
by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 2, 2011 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions
an embarrassment of riches
we’re spoiled. top 3 farm system easily, and we still have doubts. its because were spoiled. not that i disagree with any of your points.
looking around the majors, there arent a ton of middle of the order bats anywhere it seems.
Just like good pitching seemed hard to find in the Steriod era
it seems good hitting is now hard to find in the current era
It may be helpful to point out that the Rays do have
Price (3 more years), Shields (3 years), Davis (too many ), Niemann (2 or 3, not sure), Hellickson (5), Cobb (5 or 6) and Moore (6+) still under control for a while. So this doesn’t seem like a pressing need. But even still, the Rays drafted Guerreri which could add a high upside arm to go with the depth that the Rays have.
In response to negativity week
Can we have a look back at the 2006/2007 roster? It might give us some much needed perspective since no Fossums were harmed in the making of this roster.
2006/2007
A young BJ Upton finally finding his place, putting up in 2007 the first in what surely would be a long line of elite-level numbers
Carl Crawford doing his thing
The underappreciated Aubrey Huff
Rocco Baldelli turning triples into outs in CF, and developing at the plate
Salvaging Ty Wigginton and Carlos Pena off the scrap heap
It was a great time to be Rays fan
I really liked 2006/2007.
Seemed like we were winning every game in 6th… and then the bullpen entered the game.
Beej’s numbers were BABIP-spiked, but it’s a fucking shame he hurt his shoulder.
@ptSuttery
I had a lot of fun with the 2004-07 teams.
by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 2, 2011 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions
Yes, but I became de-sensitized to any possible disappointment by those years and it was always a pleasant surprise when we won.
Now, the expectations have made watching the team lose so much more agitating.
by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 2, 2011 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions
You hit the nail on the head here, part of the reason I grew to love the Rays is because of the excitement of winning a game or a series, forget a division
@SandyKazmir
Sometimes you eat the bear...
by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 2, 2011 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions
After nearly 10 years of dumpster diving
2007 felt like a team that could have some potential. So it was especially frustrating to blow the game in the 7, 8, 9 innings consistently. But then 08 obviously changed everything.
Twitter: @mbleazy
2007 was a miserable waste of time after the 6th
@SandyKazmir
Sometimes you eat the bear...
by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 2, 2011 10:38 AM EDT up reply actions
I had so much fun watching Josh Wilson pitch!
Was really impressed he touched 88
Tools Whore
I actually enjoyed the shit out of watching Nomo pitch, wow had to look it up can't believe that was all the way back in 05
@SandyKazmir
Sometimes you eat the bear...
by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 2, 2011 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions
I was at the game where he won his 300th!
by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 2, 2011 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions
280 of those back in Japperland?
@SandyKazmir
Sometimes you eat the bear...
by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 2, 2011 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes, out of 420 total wins that he ended up getting.
Compared to 69 losses.
by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 2, 2011 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions
That's a very good W/L ratio, HoF fa sho
@SandyKazmir
Sometimes you eat the bear...
by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 2, 2011 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Best new poster of the week nominee
@SandyKazmir
Sometimes you eat the bear...
by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 2, 2011 10:38 AM EDT up reply actions
Thompson turned in one of his best starts King 7 in a 6 or 7 inning outing
follow me on twitter @sternfan10
Nope, milb screwed up
It included Kirby Yates’ 3 strikeouts in 2 innings. I think Thompson finished with 4 strikeouts in 6 innings, which is still a vast improvement
Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com
by Imperialism32 on Aug 2, 2011 9:08 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, they fixed the box score
Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com
by Imperialism32 on Aug 2, 2011 9:50 AM EDT up reply actions
I've been saying this for quite a while and was always rebuked by someone telling me the Rays ranking
I scour the minors daily looking at box scores, and yes i know that’s not the end all, and find slim pickings
AA Monty last season add such a collection of hitting challenged bats it seemed to me many of them didn’t belong in AA
Having said that, Keong Kang has had a resurgence of sorts this year, so we’ll see
follow me on twitter @sternfan10
Kang looked good at the plate last night
I thought Marquis Fleming looked fantastic in relief and his change-up is one of the best I’ve seen at the minor league level. He had guys swinging a foot over it nearly every time he threw it. He looked 91-92 with his fastball, but his FB and CH duo was dominating. I’ll say it – he looked better than Chris Archer did as the starter.
Archer dialed it up 95-96 all night but his fastball command is really bad. He walked four and hit a guy in 6 innings of work and I didn’t track the pitches, but it wouldn’t surprise me if his ball/strikes totals were within 10. His slider is a nasty nasty pitch that the Suns couldn’t touch all night but he could only throw it when he was ahead in the count and every time he fell behind, it was fastball.
He threw two or three change-ups that even my inexperienced father could point out from our seats that he was slowing down his arm speed to throw it. His curveball is really sloppy and he tips it with an altered delivery. He threw 6-8 of them, all of them rolled up there and barely showed a 1-plane break.
It may seem like an early call, but just go ahead and make him a reliever already. That, or send him back down a level and put him on a pitch menu to force more off-speed stuff. On pure stuff, his fastball is a 65 pitch, but the command is a 40. The slider is the best thing he has going right now but he throws it mostly as a chase pitch at the backfoot of lefties and low and away to righties.
I'm not a fanboy, I'm a _______
by Jason Collette on Aug 2, 2011 9:18 AM EDT up reply actions
Look at what it did for Halladay
I’d rather him work through the process at High A than have AA guys beat his brains in
I'm not a fanboy, I'm a _______
by Jason Collette on Aug 2, 2011 8:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Where did you see Fleming?
When I saw him he was sitting 87-88 on the stadium gun. He threw a bug bunny change once or twice that baffled batters, but it was his breaking ball that I fell in love with. Are we talking about the same guy?
@SandyKazmir
Sometimes you eat the bear...
by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 2, 2011 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions
here in Jacksonville last night
He had Bugs Bunny hopping all night but his heat looked 91ish
I'm not a fanboy, I'm a _______
by Jason Collette on Aug 2, 2011 8:13 PM EDT up reply actions
And on Archer, I've yet to see, but did you see a bunch of Carlos Marmol in him?
@SandyKazmir
Sometimes you eat the bear...
by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 2, 2011 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions
not the same funky delivery
I'm not a fanboy, I'm a _______
by Jason Collette on Aug 2, 2011 8:13 PM EDT up reply actions
It takes a combination of scouting, acquisition and opportunity
To find the young players that can make an impact at the ML level. Rays have been pretty good at identifying pitchers historically( at least as far as arms). They have been lacking in terms of hitters although I see a shift in focus. The Garza deal was a perfect example. Trade a surplus in Garza for a package of players. A young arm and SS for the future and a thrown in utility player. But the addition of Guyer(25) and Chirinos(26) were obvious attempts to add some hitting at ML ready levels. Very good moves, IMO…position of needs.
The problem was In Chirino’s case is that he had nothing left to prove at AAA. He has hit at every level of competition and he racked in ST. Rays didn’t like his defense so kept him down to develop more. He should have remained with the team as a DH type(extra catcher). Especially once Manny was released(and subsequentially when Dan Jo was designated) he should have been brought back.
Guyer, we all know, should have been brought up and stayed up earlier in the season. Actually he should have remained without having to bring Ruggiano up. Again, younger, had shown he could hit at all levels, had a good start at Durham and deserved the chance to play regularly when the opportunity arose.
If the Rays thought enough of their talent to acquire them as ML ready, mainly because they knew they could hit, it seems they missed the boat on giving them the opportunity when it was staring them right in their face.
Seems to me his time was/is now to show he can HIT and impact the team
While his defense is sub-par, the Rays need guys who can hit. And the DH spot may be his calling. Playing 2/3 times a week and having to struggle with his catching is not helping him or the team, IMO. What have the Rays to lose by not getting him consistent AB’s as the DH(with some catching here and there).
If the guy can hit(and his last 3 seasons developing in the minors is his ticket), he deserves the chance to prove it given the state of the Rays offense now. That’s all I’m saying.
I think that's fair, but Damon is in his way right now.
I certainly hope he gets the opportunity to play everyday or close to it from here on out.
@ptSuttery
Damon has had a good year but I don't believe the Rays ever envisioned him as the full time DH(not with Manny coming along).
But he’s fit the DH role only because the Rays have better defensive options in LF and it suits Maddon’s flexibility approach. While getting some big hits, being popular, and a good clubhouse guy, his numbers are pedestrian(decreasing OBP, w/OBA, slg and OPS) as a DH and certainly his power doesn’t warrant him remaining there as the present roster is void of power.
I think the Rays will have to take a long look at whether it benefits the team offensively moving into 2012. He may give a discount, he may please the fan base but he also may clog up the Rays line-up next year …..certainly if they do not add power and run production.
Please use less words to make your point, thanks in advance
@SandyKazmir
Sometimes you eat the bear...
by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 2, 2011 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions
But
Chirinos had 62 AAA PAs and a long history of NOT hitting.
And we’ll see about Guyer when he comes up. Might be Demon Young without the raving scouts.
by Whelk on Aug 2, 2011 10:02 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Once the Cubs made him into a catcher, he has flourished as a hitter.
And he has made large incremental stat increases over that time(last 3 seasons). Now he may not ever be a decent defensive catcher but we’re talking hitting here. Some guys just have nothing left to prove in the minors and it’s either they get the chance in the majors or they waste away. He just might be the type of player that if left alone to just concentrate on hitting, he could be very successful. Rays may be asking too much of him as a catcher. Free Chirinos.
As much as I want to believe, the response always has to be
62 AAA PAs. This is not proven to be major league ready, and definitely not major league DH ready.
He looks an awful lot like a RH'd John Jaso
@SandyKazmir
Sometimes you eat the bear...
by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 2, 2011 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions
Cobb would be in the minors if not for a 6 man rotation...
Moore is ready any time the Rays decide he is. That’s 2 starting pitchers that can clearly pitch for a contending team in the AL East… and as mentioned above, every other starter is locked up. There are some talented arms not performing, but there is no rush on themat this point. Pitching isnt an issue, and shouldnt be an issue for a few years.
Well, if Cobb/Niemann are traded, we're down to Moore in the high minors.
Which is a fantastic trump card, even though he should really be in the majors.
@ptSuttery
Gotta keep him way down in the hole.
He’s got the fire and the fury at his command.
/Tom Waits
@ptSuttery
/Waylon Jennings
@SandyKazmir
Sometimes you eat the bear...
by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 2, 2011 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions
Unwelcome thoughts: James Shields might stick around longer with this team than David Price.
If Price doesn’t sign an extension, he’s going to get real expensive real fast through arbitration.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow
by Steve Slowinski on Aug 2, 2011 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions
I don't want to get into yesterday's shenanigans, but holy shit, if this team can't afford Price through arbitration, then fuck them.
@ptSuttery
Tim Lincecum is getting paid $8m and $13m in his first two seasons or Arb.
I’m just saying, Price isn’t necessarily going to be any cheaper than Shields going forward.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow
by Steve Slowinski on Aug 2, 2011 10:11 AM EDT up reply actions
Actually, yeah, I bet he's more expensive than Shields over the next three years.
Combined, at least.
But of course, he’s also a friggin’ stud.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow
by Steve Slowinski on Aug 2, 2011 10:15 AM EDT up reply actions
This season, at least. Not last.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow
by Steve Slowinski on Aug 2, 2011 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions
Of course he's worth that.
But Shields is worth that too. I’m just playing devil’s advocate….if we’re talking about trading Shields because he’s getting more expensive and we need to deal a pitcher, I don’t see why the other shouldn’t at least be talked about.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow
by Steve Slowinski on Aug 2, 2011 10:18 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm not interested in trading Shields because he's getting expensive.
I’m interested in trading him because he would bring a great return. HIs contract (three team options!!!) makes him extremely affordable for basically every team in baseball. I can’t recall a near elite pitcher who had that kind of financial flexibility.
@ptSuttery
...and Price wouldn't bring an incredible return?
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow
by Steve Slowinski on Aug 2, 2011 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions
Didn't stop the Indians from acquiring Ubaldo, did it?
by R.J. Anderson on Aug 2, 2011 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions
i hear the '14 option is in question--Indians say it still holds water
follow me on twitter @sternfan10
It's still there, just becomes a player option I believe.
Or at least, that’s how it’s written on Cots.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow
by Steve Slowinski on Aug 2, 2011 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions
i know that, but i'm hearing Antonetti is arguing it's still a club option--stay tuned
also Fukkodome might be able to be offered arby
follow me on twitter @sternfan10
Huh, interesting.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow
by Steve Slowinski on Aug 2, 2011 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions
Not a fan
@SandyKazmir
Sometimes you eat the bear...
by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 2, 2011 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions
Of course he would. By your own account he's going to be less affordable than Shields, though.
A Price trade has less potential suitors.
@ptSuttery
Eh, disagree. He may be more expensive, but he's also a young stud that throws 95 MPH.
I’ve imagine teams would be jumping over the chance to bid on him. Pitchers like him rarely get put on the trade block.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow
by Steve Slowinski on Aug 2, 2011 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions
True...missed the + sign there.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow
by Steve Slowinski on Aug 2, 2011 10:30 AM EDT up reply actions
I obviously don't want to trade Price either.
All I’m saying is that I can’t think of any reason for trading Shields that doesn’t also apply to Price.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow
by Steve Slowinski on Aug 2, 2011 10:30 AM EDT up reply actions
In a vacuum, I don't think there is either.
But, it would be received even more poorly than a Shields trade. Even if he’s going to get expensive, paying 13m a year for a Top 10 pitcher is worth it, even on a 60m payroll.
@ptSuttery
imo, omce a team has an abindance of players they want to keep and are in their arby years
the payroll must be adjusted upward
follow me on twitter @sternfan10
Yes, as this team has shown they will do
We’re going through a 4-5 year cycle where the payroll will consistently climb with a year or two at the end where they lose money, but have a bananas team.
@SandyKazmir
Sometimes you eat the bear...
by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 2, 2011 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions
I can think of one huge one.
One is outproducing what I’d call his TTL while the other is underperfoming it.
Yup, true.
Gets at what Sutty just said above too. Price is better and would be more bang for the buck….definitely agree. Which is why I’d like to keep him instead.
But again, I just don’t think we should rule out thinking about Price…be willing to consider all possibilities, and all that jazz. At the very least, we have to start taking into account that he’s going to start getting expensive, and he’s no longer an automatic no brainer. An extension would be oh, so nice, but I don’t know what the odds of that are.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow
by Steve Slowinski on Aug 2, 2011 10:38 AM EDT up reply actions
I do think 2012 is the last season the Rays can afford both Shields and Price at the same time.
Unless something changes in either the payroll or in Price’s contract by then.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow
by Steve Slowinski on Aug 2, 2011 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions
You don't even know what Price's arb award will be. I know you're playing up the pessimism of late, but it's asinine to even make that assumption.
@SandyKazmir
Sometimes you eat the bear...
by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 2, 2011 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions
This is one of the things that need fiuxed.
The whole intent of the 6 year MLB service clock and the three arby years, i’d hope were to benefit small-mid teams. When it becomes too pricey to afford an arby guy the system is broken
follow me on twitter @sternfan10
Yup, agreed. Arb has gotten out of control recently.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow
by Steve Slowinski on Aug 2, 2011 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions
Has it, though?
Or has the stratification of MLB payrolls just manifested itself in market value being unaffordable to teams at the arbitration stage of contractions?
by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 2, 2011 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions
Players are mad expensive, regardless.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow
by Steve Slowinski on Aug 2, 2011 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions
Basically.
I mean, arb years aren’t truly cost-controlled, so why shouldn’t awards keep pace with escalating FA contracts?
by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 2, 2011 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions
The system does work, if Price is worth $25-30M and you get the privilege of paying him $10 then that is your reward
The system is not designed to keep players as indentured servants in perpetuity, only their first three years.
@SandyKazmir
Sometimes you eat the bear...
by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 2, 2011 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions
Did you steal this memo of the desk of one, Sternfan1, esquire?
@SandyKazmir
Sometimes you eat the bear...
by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 2, 2011 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions
'Twas one of my better trolls, I thought.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow
by Steve Slowinski on Aug 2, 2011 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions
The point is that the low minors do not appear to have much good going on down there in the way of arms. It will be sad if all our current arms have moved on by the time our young sluggers are hitting and we continue to excel at only half the game.
@SandyKazmir
Sometimes you eat the bear...
by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 2, 2011 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions
So can we agree Moore needs a 10 years contract the day he gets called up?
His delivery= no injuries.
Stevesies, I still think your 50m projection for the Rays payroll next year is bullshit.
76m in 2010, 63m in 2009. Let’s start at 60m and work from there.
@ptSuttery
What's the average of the last three years?
76+63+42 or so? That’s 181 … /3 = 60 or so, so yeah, I guess that might work.
by R.J. Anderson on Aug 2, 2011 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions
I like the chance that both Shoppach and Damon will be off the payroll next season.
We can replace Shoppach internally and use the money towards a proper DH/1B. I do suspect we will re-sign Kotchman, though.
@ptSuttery
If they re-sign Kotch, it would need to be on very team friendly terms.
A DRaysBay and FanGraphs writer from Cubs Stats and Twitter @BradleyWoodrum
Terms that make it friendly are that local boy gon do good on his way to a batting title
@SandyKazmir
Sometimes you eat the bear...
by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 2, 2011 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions
They didn't re-sign Bartlett, and this smells like Bartlett 2.0.
by R.J. Anderson on Aug 2, 2011 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions
They had a replacement for Bartlett
They have nothing behind Kotchman.
It's Casey Kotchman, not exactly hard to find an upgrade.
by R.J. Anderson on Aug 2, 2011 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions
I wouldn't be so sure.
I’m not pro-Kotchman by any means, but where are these firstbaseman/DH replacements at? Everyone always says how easy it is to replace Kotchman/Damon like production, but where is it at a low price?
It wouldn’t hurt to take a shot at another younger, once-failed prospect (in the Pena, Johnson, Kotchman mold) and keep Kotchman around just in case.
The problem with what you propose, which I generally agree should be tried, is that the floor is really low on guys like that
For every Pena there is a Choi or Blalock that should be selling tractors somewhere.
@SandyKazmir
Sometimes you eat the bear...
by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 2, 2011 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions
I agree.
The problem is that there is such a huge gap in 1B/DH types, you can’t really go acquire a good one on the free agent trade market. There are the great ones (Prince, Pujols, Howard, Gonzalez, Tex) then there are a whole bunch of highly paid old guys. There isn’t as much of a middle ground as there seems to be at other positions.
The options are to take a risk by trading a bunch for a young prospect type or just hoarding past flameouts and hoping one works. They seem to have done ok with the latter option.
I guarantee you they could pull a replacement for Kotchman out of their ass and still see that it's an improvement over their "replacement" for Bartlett.
by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 2, 2011 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions
It wasn't long ago that Reid was the savior...
Everyone was counting down the days for Bartlett to be shipped out.
I satisfied myself that it was the right call after last season.
But I wanted to see whether 2009 was a turning point for him, first. (It wasn’t)
by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 2, 2011 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions
I agree that it was.
It just didn’t work out.
Kotchman gets re-signed if the Rays add power elsewhere
The lack of power is the only reason that Kotchman isn’t getting enough love here, now and moving forward, IMO.
Also because his line is driven almost entirely by BA, and his skill set has proven to not be one capable of producing high-BA in the majors in the past.
by R.J. Anderson on Aug 2, 2011 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions
Granted this may be an outlier season...
…except for one thing. His approach and his success as a spray/high BA hitter this season resembles a perennial type of high BA player. Whatever happened in the past and maybe because his lasik surgery made the difference, he knows how to hit, he has a mental plan in the box, makes adjustments to pitchers and pitches within AB’s, and hits the ball where it is thrown. That is impressive.
Except the league adjusted to Bartlett from mid 2009 and beyond.
He had holes in his swing(up and in to R’s and low away to L’s) and that continued to anything inside the last 2 seasons as a Ray.
The league has yet to adjust to Kotchman and I think he will be much harder to pitch to because of his mind set and swing.
He had like a 740 OPS since 2008.
Not seeing how they haven’t adjusted to him.
by R.J. Anderson on Aug 2, 2011 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions
I'll take consistent .350+ wOBA all year over some streaker that's less reliable

@SandyKazmir
Sometimes you eat the bear...
by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 2, 2011 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions
I don't know who that is but that looks like mostly every other player's chart.
by R.J. Anderson on Aug 2, 2011 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions
Kotchman showing remarkable consistency over the course of this year
You wouldn’t bring him back on a 2/5 kind of deal if he’ll take it? That kind of savings allows us to bring back Beej and spend money on a DH or SS or C.
@SandyKazmir
Sometimes you eat the bear...
by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 2, 2011 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions
No. I don't see any reason to make a commitment to him.
by R.J. Anderson on Aug 2, 2011 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions
You wouldn't do a deal for any dollar amount?
Now I know you’re just arguing emotionally. At some point you have to admit that you missed this one and just move on. Literally, everyone else has. Maybe he’s not this good last year, but he’s not as bad as 2009 either. .330 wOBA for virtually nothing with excellent defense is much better than bringing Johnny Damon back to hit like that at DH with no defense.
@SandyKazmir
Sometimes you eat the bear...
by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 2, 2011 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm against the second year more so than your money.
by R.J. Anderson on Aug 2, 2011 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions
If the Rays can't find a power hitting 1st baseman for 2012, than you make some sort of 1 year 1.5 million dollar commitmment to Kotch
If you gain a lot more power from other positions over the winter, you can maybe add a season2yrs/3 million.
He's going to have some leverage and be hoping to parlay this year into a multi year deal at the expense of dollars
If I’m him I’d rather have a 2-3 year deal for slightly less money than a 1 year deal for slightly more.
@SandyKazmir
Sometimes you eat the bear...
by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 2, 2011 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions
Because you can't eat the cost if it doesn't pan out for a year and a half?
I don’t see how you can hope that we get rid of Beej on one hand to find a 1B when we can keep both and use what would have been spent to patch other holes.
@SandyKazmir
Sometimes you eat the bear...
by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 2, 2011 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions
Can't isn't the word I'm thinking of
There just isn’t much reason to set yourself up for it.
by R.J. Anderson on Aug 2, 2011 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions
So you don't even keep it in your mind as an option? You're moving on regardless of the dollar/year figures?
Seems silly for a cat that usually tries to keep an open mind and give every idea a chance.
@SandyKazmir
Sometimes you eat the bear...
by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 2, 2011 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions
All I've said I wouldn't give him two years.
If there’s an option or whatever and he’s literally the only first baseman with a pulse, maybe I’d do it. Otherwise, I don’t see why you’d pay Kotchman when you could get the same skill set for less. I’m sure James Loney will be looking for a job.
by R.J. Anderson on Aug 2, 2011 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Loney will net more money runtelldat
@SandyKazmir
Sometimes you eat the bear...
by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 2, 2011 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions
None of these players are as good at the dish or in the field, I know you're all for lower cost/lower talent players, but hopefully
someday, you’ll overcome the brainwashing that you’ve received from our FO. We all miss the old R.J. and wish he would come home and do honest analysis instead of just being angry that he missed on something.
@SandyKazmir
Sometimes you eat the bear...
by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 2, 2011 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions
As I sent to FZ in an email a week or two ago:
2008-2011
Kotchman: .267/.329/.393
Loney: .277/.337/.398
Ishikawa: .264/.328/.396
2009-2011
Kotchman: .264/.329/.384
Loney: .272/.336/.384
Ishikawa: .262/.326/.388
2010-2011
Kotchman: .262/.323/.385
Loney: .267/.323/.374
Ishikawa: .266/.320/.392
Ishi hasn’t played as much, but again, Loney is a non-tender candidate who isn’t coming off a great season, so I’m going to guess he’ll get less than Kotch.
by R.J. Anderson on Aug 2, 2011 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes the guy had an awful run from 2009 to 2010
Your continued reliance on that shows that you are incapable of making adjustments and will never evolve.
2008-2011
Beej: .245/.334/.398
Bourn: .271/.337/.359
Span: .289/.366/.391
2009-2011
Beej: .235/.315/.397
Bourn: .283/.351/.376
Span: .288/.361/.381
2010-2011
Beej: .232/.315/.411
Bourn: .282/.350/.371
Span: .272/.339/.358
Gee I wonder why we couldn’t get anything better than a rented mule reliever and a bad SS prospect.
@SandyKazmir
Sometimes you eat the bear...
by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 2, 2011 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions
I've said before I'd rather have Span because of the contract.
Bourn isn’t exactly a bad player either.
by R.J. Anderson on Aug 2, 2011 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Bourn led CFers in WAR last year
and has been almost a 5 win player for 3 years in a row.
Tools Whore
Yes, I just find it incredible that people are shocked that Beej didn't bring back some massive package
Dude is what he is. A problem in the clubhouse, a bad hitter in the box, and an overrated fielder in center. Nobody is giving us jack for that.
@SandyKazmir
Sometimes you eat the bear...
by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 2, 2011 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Which is why the Nats made a big mistake
..and the Rays might have had an opportunity to get something of value, and need, from them when the Twins didn’t work out.
2011
Kotchman: .326/.384/.444
Loney: .253/.298/.322
Ishikawa: .266/.320/.392
And when the winter market is set, this will mean the most. Kotchman is going to make his money for what his value is for what team in interested in his skill set.
Yeah, but what did he do in 2004?
How many homers did he hit in college?
@SandyKazmir
Sometimes you eat the bear...
by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 2, 2011 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions
I don;t think you get the same skills set(High BA and good defense) for less than 1-2 million a season at 1st base this winter
If the Rays think he can duplicate his hitting moving forward they will find a way to keep Kotchman in their line-up. To what extent, I don’t know. But .300+ hitters don’t grow on trees.
He is now and he may continue.
But again, I stated that “IF” the FO thinks he can duplicate it……
His OPS is not going to increase(and will go down) the more he keeps getting singles.
He is not getting XBH’s and that’s the only reason his OPS is going down. If he took more walks and had speed, he’d be batting lead-off. He is what he is this year..a very good BA hitter. Maddon just can’t figure out the best spot to put him in the line-up with what the other hitters struggling to find their offensive game.
The best spot is in another team's lineup so when his BABIP craters we don't have to experience his awfulness.
by R.J. Anderson on Aug 2, 2011 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions
Seriously, you can pretend he's Ichiro, but he's not.
His career BA is .267 in nearly 3,000 PA. His previous career high was .296. No reason to think he’s suddenly a true talent .300+ hitter. None.
by R.J. Anderson on Aug 2, 2011 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions
Just like there was no reason to think that he would be worth having on a minor league deal six months ago?
by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 2, 2011 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions
Strange things happen in baseball.
You should trust the larger sample size though, and common sense says ol’ boy ain’t gonna lead too many teams in infield hits.
by R.J. Anderson on Aug 2, 2011 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions
You just can't predict baseball, Suzyn
Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com
by Imperialism32 on Aug 2, 2011 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions
Tied for the lead with Longo and who would have expected either of them to be up there. I guess Longo is garbage as well since he only has good season when he BABIPs over .330
When you regress everything to the mean you remain realistic but you limit any chance of catching a falling star. That means you rarely if ever can make a high upside play as you’re more likely to look for higher floor/Lower ceiling types. Seems like the opposite of what a team on a limited budget should be doing.
@SandyKazmir
Sometimes you eat the bear...
by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 2, 2011 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions
His overall success this season is being overshadowed by a general lack of hitting from most everyone else around him in the Rays line-up.
You put a .320+ hitter somewhere in the middle in most any other line-up in baseball and you would have a player who is helping a team score a lot of runs. If the Rays were scoring a ton of runs, no one would be criticizing Kochman to the level they are, IMO.
This is not the argument against Kotchman.
The argument is that his performance is unsustainable.
@ptSuttery
He didn't have Lasik.
Jacque Jones and countless other players who you won’t remember did, and it didn’t show up as much as you would think.
by R.J. Anderson on Aug 2, 2011 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions
Eh, we'll see. I'd love if that was the case.
Just based on the narrative they seem to be driving, I don’t see how they can justify increasing the payroll $20m this offseason after receiving such low attendance this year. It would make them some more friends with fans and such, but totally blows a hole in their “bad revenues, new stadium!” schtick.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow
by Steve Slowinski on Aug 2, 2011 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions
The narrative is still there. The benefits of a new stadium would be something like having a 100m payroll thanks to new revenues.
Spending 60-70m still puts you in the bottom third.
@ptSuttery
And 5th in the division in payroll because both the O's and Jays can spend over 100m now.
@ptSuttery
Jays carried 100+ payrolls through almost the entirety of the J.P. Ricciardi era
@SandyKazmir
Sometimes you eat the bear...
by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 2, 2011 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions
Yes, but you're still increasing payroll by a huge percentage after attendance has been down considerably.
They’d be handing the other side ammunition. I can just see that turning into an anti-stadium attack ad right there.
Again, not to say I agree with the rationale, if this is the case. Just that I still think the odds are still pretty against them raising payroll by that much. $50-55m seems more realistic to me as a high-end projection.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow
by Steve Slowinski on Aug 2, 2011 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions
See my point down below.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow
by Steve Slowinski on Aug 2, 2011 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions
There is virtually no chance of this being an attack point in a stadium debate.
When there are so many other criticisms that people can relate to and actually make a difference.
I mean, did attendance increase at a level commensurate with the payroll hike from 2008 to 2010?
by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 2, 2011 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions
.
It would make them some more friends with fans and such, but totally blows a hole in their "bad revenues, new stadium!" schtick.
Do you believe that the team cares more about fidelity to this narrative than winning?
by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 2, 2011 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions
I don't know. I do think the stadium issue has become more important to them of late.
And that MLB is likely going to start caring too, if they don’t already.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow
by Steve Slowinski on Aug 2, 2011 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions
It concerns me that you can't say 'no' to that question.
And yet still hold management in high regard, as a fan of this team.
by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 2, 2011 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions
Well, you phrased the question in such a way as to be damning.
The Rays care about winning, obviously. And they’ve shown they’re willing to put money into the team and invest in the area…also obviously.
But as I said below, their reality and understanding about this market has shifted since when they began, and I wouldn’t be surprised if they find themselves needing to be more conservative with the budgets since the increased attendance and revenue isn’t coming. I guess I don’t really see it as upholding the narrative as it is operating under a new set of circumstances.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow
by Steve Slowinski on Aug 2, 2011 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions
I thought it was a pretty straightforward question, that got to the root of the whole 'suppress payroll to bolster the stadium argument' idea.
I would’ve answered no, because on-balance I give the FO the benefit of the doubt. What you got into in the second paragraph is a whole different story.
by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 2, 2011 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, fair enough.
If we’re just talking about the stadium crap, then yeah, I’m right with you. And in retrospect, I think I overstated the stadium schtick bit, since I don’t even think they’ve angled for it all that hard.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow
by Steve Slowinski on Aug 2, 2011 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions
If I recall correctly, Silverman said the organization specifically did not want to bring up the new stadium again this year.
This was after Maddon blew up and Foster slammed the Rays about it. Apparently the organization was pretty pissed at Maddon about it. Not that they lectured him or anything, but he isn’t the guy they want talking about it.
@ptSuttery
That's not how I read it.
Sternberg said his piece and said he didn’t want to talk about it the rest of the year during the Red Sox series. Then, two days later, Maddon jumped on the gravy train with the ESPN retards and complained about the stadium, and Silverman backed him up.
by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 2, 2011 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions
And look at the previous years to that. It's a slow buildup over half a decade
@SandyKazmir
Sometimes you eat the bear...
by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 2, 2011 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions
I also think it's worth remembering that back in '09 and such, the Rays were operating under the premise that if you win and invest in the team, the fans will come.
The fans didn’t come, so now the Rays have a new reality they need to deal with. I wouldn’t be surprised at all if their plan of attack changes re: their payroll management.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow
by Steve Slowinski on Aug 2, 2011 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions
Yes, I too find it hard to believe one of a team's few sources of income has an effect on payroll.
It’s revenue sharing, TV/radio, merchandise, and tickets. Unless I’m missing something.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow
by Steve Slowinski on Aug 2, 2011 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions
Any idea when it was written?
Otherwise … start scanningc.
by R.J. Anderson on Aug 2, 2011 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions
Nate did a whole series on market sizes/evaluation if that's what you're talking about.
If not, I’ll keep searching in Huckaby’s archive for something that might look like a financial analysis.
by R.J. Anderson on Aug 2, 2011 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions
.
Part one:
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=6182
Part two:
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=6184
by R.J. Anderson on Aug 2, 2011 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions
His political writing is fantastic
@SandyKazmir
Sometimes you eat the bear...
by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 2, 2011 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions
Agreed, it's awesome.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow
by Steve Slowinski on Aug 2, 2011 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions
Wonder what he's up to these days
Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com
by Imperialism32 on Aug 2, 2011 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions
Bookmark his droppings
http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/
@SandyKazmir
Sometimes you eat the bear...
by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 2, 2011 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions
Sarcasm fail
Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com
by Imperialism32 on Aug 2, 2011 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions
You shut your mouf, Gaggler
@SandyKazmir
Sometimes you eat the bear...
by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 2, 2011 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions
He replied to one of the BPro mailing list emails and my heart nearly jumped out my chest seeing "Nate Silver" in my inbox.
by R.J. Anderson on Aug 2, 2011 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions
Holy shit you live an underwhelming life.
by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 2, 2011 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions
Yes, why would I get excited that one of my favorite writers would potentially contact me?
by R.J. Anderson on Aug 2, 2011 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions
So what? Barack Obama emails me every day
Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com
by Imperialism32 on Aug 2, 2011 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions
Sometimes Joe Biden too
Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com
by Imperialism32 on Aug 2, 2011 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm assuming his are just drunken 3am ramblings?
by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 2, 2011 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions
I guess he hit his ATM limit, he's always asking for money
Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com
by Imperialism32 on Aug 2, 2011 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions
I don't think we need to have an attendance chat, but there are plenty of reasons for it.
Aspiring for mediocrity isn’t going to win anyone over when it comes to getting a new stadium.
@ptSuttery
I know you're trying to remain impartial as an analyst, but it has to anger you that the team will likely spend less than they're capable of to put a winning product out there.
@ptSuttery
"...spend less than they're capable of"
That’s the part I don’t buy. But then we’re just getting into yesterday’s argument all over again.
We’re really not off by that much. You’re hoping they put up a $60m payroll next year, I’m saying $50-55 is more likely. In the end, we’re kinda quibbling over stupid stuff. I still think these guys will ramp it up whenever they feel they can compete and invest in the team if they’re close….I guess I just think they have a slightly tighter financial situation than you do.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow
by Steve Slowinski on Aug 2, 2011 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions
Well, you are a carpet bagging Yankee, so you would take the side of the establishment. =p
@ptSuttery
What can I say, I'm just rooting for Stu to buy the Mets.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow
by Steve Slowinski on Aug 2, 2011 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions
Is it possible that the team will invest when the return will be the greatest?
And that payroll isn’t tied as much to hard numbers as it is to the benefit?
An extra 10-15 million on this years payroll would have been a mistake since the teams flaws weren’t as clear. There were a lot of questions going into 2011 and just throwing money around wouldn’t have answered many.
I wouldn’t be surprised to see a large uptick in payroll as the teams problems become much more specific.
Time to end the O'Conner catching experiment
Turn him back to pitcher
When i said this last week, i was arrested for treason
O’Conner a major league bust of a #1draft pick
follow me on twitter @sternfan10
He was like the 31st pick in the draft, calm down
Draft picks bust, it happens
Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com
by Imperialism32 on Aug 2, 2011 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions
i know that, but you'd like to see the 31st player at least get to AA, before he hits the wall
not the Appy League
follow me on twitter @sternfan10
Yeah you'd like to but it's not like he's the only one to not simply not hit with wood bats
Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com
by Imperialism32 on Aug 2, 2011 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions
Jose Reyes?
Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com
by Imperialism32 on Aug 2, 2011 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions
He'll never hit 19 HR like Reyes
But then again Reyes did that before the pitching era
Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com
by Imperialism32 on Aug 2, 2011 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions
I think the line-up pitching depth can be filled through trades mainly
this off-season you trade Shields, since it was so widely discussed I’ll use the Reds as an example with Mesoraco and Alonso. That helps out at 1B/C. I also think you try and move BJ for some pitching depth ideally AA guys.
Go with a rotation of Price, Hellickson, Cobb, Davis, Niemann in 2012 with Moore/Torres waiting around the deadline if you can move one of the back end guys or if there is an injury.
off-season 2012 you trade Price for whatever is best package of hitting/pitching and you still have a rotation of Hellickson, Moore, Cobb, Niemann, Davis, Torres, Archer + whomever you brought back in Upton, Price, Shields trades.
we are loaded with guys who can be serviceable 4/5 guys (Niemann, Davis, Archer, Torres) and Hellickson is a solid #2 and Cobb a #3 hopefully Moore can be ready to be the #1 by 2013.
Hey Collette where'd you run off to? Lunch at Fergs with Sports Babe?
follow me on twitter @sternfan10
by sternfan1 on Aug 2, 2011 11:42 AM EDT reply actions 7 recs
Since when did 3 rec's make green on this site?
I mean, I made it 5 but it was green before that.
Sign lady must die.
#rootingforstusbottomline
by EminenceFront on Aug 2, 2011 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Fuck. That.
Sign lady must die.
#rootingforstusbottomline
by EminenceFront on Aug 2, 2011 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions
I hated that it took so long to get there.
It felt like such a rare occurrence. We’re giving 3 a try for now.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow
by Steve Slowinski on Aug 2, 2011 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Here's an honest question. Would it be so bad for Stu to sell the team to a local guy
with deep pockets? Little Eddie maybe
follow me on twitter @sternfan10
Probably buried in the cement pilings of some bridge.
by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 2, 2011 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions
sell it to the indians
put a new stadium up on the reservation and put a casino in the outfield, while not very probable, someone brought up that idea on the radio a few weeks back and it didn’t sound that bad. good location and would probably draw pretty well, should be fine because they don’t have a sports book there anyway.
hey it would be fun to hang out getting drunk playing poker with a baseball game in the background
it will never happen though.
Jesus H. tap-dancing Christ you're serious.
Sign lady must die.
#rootingforstusbottomline
by EminenceFront on Aug 2, 2011 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions
not really about selling the team to them
but putting a stadium there wouldn’t be the worst idea, but not the best either. Speaking as a fan, not as a business owner/responsible human being
Speaking as a non-garbage monster, not a gambling addict, you're terrible.
Sign lady must die.
#rootingforstusbottomline
by EminenceFront on Aug 2, 2011 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Putting a stadium there would be pretty much the worst idea.
by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 2, 2011 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions
well i don't know...
If people went to the game and not only bought beer and hot dogs, but gambled as well that would be a huge amount of revenue. But then the ballpark would no longer be a family friendly place so that will never happen
Awful
Sign lady must die.
#rootingforstusbottomline
by EminenceFront on Aug 2, 2011 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions

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