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The Downside: Flaws In The Rays Farm System

SEATTLE - JULY 31:  Ben Zobrist #18 of the Tampa Bay Rays watches his two run single in the sixth inning against the Seattle Mariners at Safeco Field on July 31, 2011 in Seattle, Washington. The Rays defeated the Mariners 8-1. (Photo by Otto Greule Jr/Getty Images)

Just call it Negative Nancy Week here at DRaysBay. In Steve's look at the trade deadline yesterday, he laid out a potential 2012 roster that was pretty underwhelming to some people, myself included (important note: that was pre-Matt Carson blockbuster). It seems crazy that a team with as much talent in the majors to go along with what's probably the top farm system isn't in better position for next year. The fact of the matter is the system isn't without flaws:

1. Lack of a middle-of-the-order hitter in the upper levels - Bats have been the system's weakness for a few years now, a problem the organization has addressed via trade. Here's a quick fun fact: As of this writing, Ben Zobrist's OPS+ is higher in 2011 than it was in 2009. He's already set a career high in doubles and along with a healthy Longoria gives the Rays two very good run producers. But other than those two (we can agree Longoria will better in 2012, yes?), there are questions marks everywhere. Matt Joyce certainly has the power but he's run hot and cold and still struggles with left-handed pitching. Sean Rodriguez hasn't come close to replicating his PCL-inflated power numbers.

Filling in anyone with a pulse at the two positions that have been black holes for the Rays this year -- catcher and shortstop -- will surely help. They have some short-term answers at catcher in Robinson Chirinos, Jose Lobaton, and maybe even Nevin Ashley, but shortstop will take a while. Tim Beckham figures to spend the entire 2012 season with Durham, and barring a breakout his ceiling looks to be that of a slightly-above-average starter. Hak-Ju Lee is the better prospect but I think the Rays will be more patient with him than Beckham as his body has more filling out to do. Even then, he projects more as a leadoff type, which -- while important -- isn't what the Rays desperately need.

Star-divide

Desmond Jennings and Brandon Guyer should be an improvement over Sam Fuld and Justin Ruggiano, but Jennings' on-base/speed combo profiles better as a top-of-the-order player and Guyer has never hit more than 15 home runs in a season in the minors. The potential power bats are in the low, low minors where it's obviously hard to predict anything. Jeff Malm is having a breakout year after a rough 2010 season, Drew Vettleson is crushing Appy League pitching, and Josh Sale probably has the best power potential in the system, but the earliest you might see any of those players is at the end of 2014, and even that's unlikely given the organization's methodical approach.

This isn't to say there aren't useful prospects between Jennings/Lee and the short-season guys. Tyler Bortnick is walking more than he strikes out in Charlotte while maintaining a .300 average with 34 steals. Derek Dietrich has some power potential but will need to improve his approach to fully unlock it. Ty Morrison is toolsy, but again, a leadoff-type even if everything goes right.

2. Suddenly-thin pitching depth - This isn't exactly a surprise considering the team is currently operating with a six-man rotation that doesn't include stud Matt Moore, who would be in the majors with just about every other team. But beyond Moore, take a look at the system and tell me what you really like from the pitching side. Alex Torres and Chris Archer have top-flight stuff but neither has ever consistently thrown strikes. Alex Colome's rate stats have taken a step back while Nick Barnese's have furiously backpedaled. Wilking Rodriguez and Albert Suarez have combined for 21 innings. Jake Thompson is striking nobody out. Enny Romero is walking five players per 9 innings and he might be the guy I rate highest from this paragraph.

Because of the focus on hitters in recent drafts, the short-season pitching lacks big prospects. The 2011 draft has helped with Jeff Ames, Blake Snell, Lenny Linsky, and Ryan Carpenter, but the team hasn't had a breakout international signee or later-round pick in a few years. Signing 2011 first-rounder Taylor Guerrieri will surely help, of course.

The pitching pipeline that has delivered so much big-league talent over the past five seasons looks like it may dry up some after Matt Moore. It will be interesting to see if the Rays accelerate the timetables of bats like Malm, Vettleson, and Sale (provided they don't flop) to more closely align with the window of the current pitching talent.

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Acquire a couple of young, ML ready middle of the order bats with surplus or expendable players

Lower risk, high reward. Fits the payroll, fits the time line,and fits the control ability approach.
And fills the needs that are not going to be met with current prospects in the organization or by signing high cost, older FA’s. Stop the revolving door and construct a roster that the fans can follow and support for the next 5-6 years.

by budman3 on Aug 2, 2011 9:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

"ML ready"

Maddon's Mission
Make you want to kill him, then make you want to love him. Sly.

by Jonah Keri on Jun 19, 2010 10:31 PM EDT

by Doug09 on Aug 2, 2011 9:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

You're probably going to want to root for another team

Honestly, which teams have more than a couple of guys that play together for some time? Shields has been here since 2006, Zobrist since 2006, Longo 08 to 2017, Crawford was here 9 years. When you acquiesce to these types of fans (the kind that only root for gritty guys that they saw dive once or those that have to have the same cast) your team on the field WILL suffer. How bout you sit back, watch the game, and leave the GMing to the professionals.

@SandyKazmir

Sometimes you eat the bear...

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 2, 2011 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions  

an embarrassment of riches

we’re spoiled. top 3 farm system easily, and we still have doubts. its because were spoiled. not that i disagree with any of your points.

looking around the majors, there arent a ton of middle of the order bats anywhere it seems.

by rglass44 on Aug 2, 2011 8:33 AM EDT reply actions  

Just like good pitching seemed hard to find in the Steriod era

it seems good hitting is now hard to find in the current era

by Sveet on Aug 2, 2011 9:14 AM EDT up reply actions  

In response to negativity week

Can we have a look back at the 2006/2007 roster? It might give us some much needed perspective since no Fossums were harmed in the making of this roster.

by Barnacles on Aug 2, 2011 8:55 AM EDT reply actions  

2006/2007

A young BJ Upton finally finding his place, putting up in 2007 the first in what surely would be a long line of elite-level numbers
Carl Crawford doing his thing
The underappreciated Aubrey Huff
Rocco Baldelli turning triples into outs in CF, and developing at the plate
Salvaging Ty Wigginton and Carlos Pena off the scrap heap
It was a great time to be Rays fan

by nomoredevil on Aug 2, 2011 9:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

I really liked 2006/2007.

Seemed like we were winning every game in 6th… and then the bullpen entered the game.

Beej’s numbers were BABIP-spiked, but it’s a fucking shame he hurt his shoulder.

@ptSuttery

by Suttree on Aug 2, 2011 9:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

This.

But so frustrating to watch. Particularly the 2007 team.

Twitter: @mbleazy

by MikeB. on Aug 2, 2011 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

After nearly 10 years of dumpster diving

2007 felt like a team that could have some potential. So it was especially frustrating to blow the game in the 7, 8, 9 innings consistently. But then 08 obviously changed everything.

Twitter: @mbleazy

by MikeB. on Aug 2, 2011 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

Nope, milb screwed up

It included Kirby Yates’ 3 strikeouts in 2 innings. I think Thompson finished with 4 strikeouts in 6 innings, which is still a vast improvement

Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com

by Imperialism32 on Aug 2, 2011 9:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

I've been saying this for quite a while and was always rebuked by someone telling me the Rays ranking

I scour the minors daily looking at box scores, and yes i know that’s not the end all, and find slim pickings

AA Monty last season add such a collection of hitting challenged bats it seemed to me many of them didn’t belong in AA

Having said that, Keong Kang has had a resurgence of sorts this year, so we’ll see

follow me on twitter @sternfan10

by sternfan1 on Aug 2, 2011 9:01 AM EDT reply actions  

Kang looked good at the plate last night

I thought Marquis Fleming looked fantastic in relief and his change-up is one of the best I’ve seen at the minor league level. He had guys swinging a foot over it nearly every time he threw it. He looked 91-92 with his fastball, but his FB and CH duo was dominating. I’ll say it – he looked better than Chris Archer did as the starter.

Archer dialed it up 95-96 all night but his fastball command is really bad. He walked four and hit a guy in 6 innings of work and I didn’t track the pitches, but it wouldn’t surprise me if his ball/strikes totals were within 10. His slider is a nasty nasty pitch that the Suns couldn’t touch all night but he could only throw it when he was ahead in the count and every time he fell behind, it was fastball.

He threw two or three change-ups that even my inexperienced father could point out from our seats that he was slowing down his arm speed to throw it. His curveball is really sloppy and he tips it with an altered delivery. He threw 6-8 of them, all of them rolled up there and barely showed a 1-plane break.

It may seem like an early call, but just go ahead and make him a reliever already. That, or send him back down a level and put him on a pitch menu to force more off-speed stuff. On pure stuff, his fastball is a 65 pitch, but the command is a 40. The slider is the best thing he has going right now but he throws it mostly as a chase pitch at the backfoot of lefties and low and away to righties.

I'm not a fanboy, I'm a _______

by Jason Collette on Aug 2, 2011 9:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

Where did you see Fleming?

When I saw him he was sitting 87-88 on the stadium gun. He threw a bug bunny change once or twice that baffled batters, but it was his breaking ball that I fell in love with. Are we talking about the same guy?

@SandyKazmir

Sometimes you eat the bear...

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 2, 2011 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

here in Jacksonville last night

He had Bugs Bunny hopping all night but his heat looked 91ish

I'm not a fanboy, I'm a _______

by Jason Collette on Aug 2, 2011 8:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

It takes a combination of scouting, acquisition and opportunity

To find the young players that can make an impact at the ML level. Rays have been pretty good at identifying pitchers historically( at least as far as arms). They have been lacking in terms of hitters although I see a shift in focus. The Garza deal was a perfect example. Trade a surplus in Garza for a package of players. A young arm and SS for the future and a thrown in utility player. But the addition of Guyer(25) and Chirinos(26) were obvious attempts to add some hitting at ML ready levels. Very good moves, IMO…position of needs.

The problem was In Chirino’s case is that he had nothing left to prove at AAA. He has hit at every level of competition and he racked in ST. Rays didn’t like his defense so kept him down to develop more. He should have remained with the team as a DH type(extra catcher). Especially once Manny was released(and subsequentially when Dan Jo was designated) he should have been brought back.

Guyer, we all know, should have been brought up and stayed up earlier in the season. Actually he should have remained without having to bring Ruggiano up. Again, younger, had shown he could hit at all levels, had a good start at Durham and deserved the chance to play regularly when the opportunity arose.

If the Rays thought enough of their talent to acquire them as ML ready, mainly because they knew they could hit, it seems they missed the boat on giving them the opportunity when it was staring them right in their face.

by budman3 on Aug 2, 2011 9:36 AM EDT reply actions  

You mean raked?

I’m a big Honey Nut Chirinos fan, but you’re overstating his case a bit.

@ptSuttery

by Suttree on Aug 2, 2011 9:49 AM EDT up reply actions  

Seems to me his time was/is now to show he can HIT and impact the team

While his defense is sub-par, the Rays need guys who can hit. And the DH spot may be his calling. Playing 2/3 times a week and having to struggle with his catching is not helping him or the team, IMO. What have the Rays to lose by not getting him consistent AB’s as the DH(with some catching here and there).

If the guy can hit(and his last 3 seasons developing in the minors is his ticket), he deserves the chance to prove it given the state of the Rays offense now. That’s all I’m saying.

by budman3 on Aug 2, 2011 10:01 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think that's fair, but Damon is in his way right now.

I certainly hope he gets the opportunity to play everyday or close to it from here on out.

@ptSuttery

by Suttree on Aug 2, 2011 10:05 AM EDT up reply actions  

Damon has had a good year but I don't believe the Rays ever envisioned him as the full time DH(not with Manny coming along).

But he’s fit the DH role only because the Rays have better defensive options in LF and it suits Maddon’s flexibility approach. While getting some big hits, being popular, and a good clubhouse guy, his numbers are pedestrian(decreasing OBP, w/OBA, slg and OPS) as a DH and certainly his power doesn’t warrant him remaining there as the present roster is void of power.

I think the Rays will have to take a long look at whether it benefits the team offensively moving into 2012. He may give a discount, he may please the fan base but he also may clog up the Rays line-up next year …..certainly if they do not add power and run production.

by budman3 on Aug 2, 2011 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

But

Chirinos had 62 AAA PAs and a long history of NOT hitting.

And we’ll see about Guyer when he comes up. Might be Demon Young without the raving scouts.

by Whelk on Aug 2, 2011 10:02 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Once the Cubs made him into a catcher, he has flourished as a hitter.

And he has made large incremental stat increases over that time(last 3 seasons). Now he may not ever be a decent defensive catcher but we’re talking hitting here. Some guys just have nothing left to prove in the minors and it’s either they get the chance in the majors or they waste away. He just might be the type of player that if left alone to just concentrate on hitting, he could be very successful. Rays may be asking too much of him as a catcher. Free Chirinos.

by budman3 on Aug 2, 2011 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

Cobb would be in the minors if not for a 6 man rotation...

Moore is ready any time the Rays decide he is. That’s 2 starting pitchers that can clearly pitch for a contending team in the AL East… and as mentioned above, every other starter is locked up. There are some talented arms not performing, but there is no rush on themat this point. Pitching isnt an issue, and shouldnt be an issue for a few years.

by td32 on Aug 2, 2011 10:00 AM EDT reply actions  

Well, if Cobb/Niemann are traded, we're down to Moore in the high minors.

Which is a fantastic trump card, even though he should really be in the majors.

@ptSuttery

by Suttree on Aug 2, 2011 10:01 AM EDT up reply actions  

Word.

Trade Shields, trade Niemann, bring up Moore, win AL East.

@ptSuttery

by Suttree on Aug 2, 2011 10:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'm down with that

even though i want to keep Shields deep down inside

I do this for free

by SRQman on Aug 2, 2011 10:05 AM EDT up reply actions  

Gotta keep him way down in the hole.

He’s got the fire and the fury at his command.

/Tom Waits

@ptSuttery

by Suttree on Aug 2, 2011 10:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

/Waylon Jennings

@SandyKazmir

Sometimes you eat the bear...

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 2, 2011 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions  

Unwelcome thoughts: James Shields might stick around longer with this team than David Price.

If Price doesn’t sign an extension, he’s going to get real expensive real fast through arbitration.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Aug 2, 2011 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

Tim Lincecum is getting paid $8m and $13m in his first two seasons or Arb.

I’m just saying, Price isn’t necessarily going to be any cheaper than Shields going forward.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Aug 2, 2011 10:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

Actually, yeah, I bet he's more expensive than Shields over the next three years.

Combined, at least.

But of course, he’s also a friggin’ stud.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Aug 2, 2011 10:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

Of course he's worth that.

But Shields is worth that too. I’m just playing devil’s advocate….if we’re talking about trading Shields because he’s getting more expensive and we need to deal a pitcher, I don’t see why the other shouldn’t at least be talked about.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Aug 2, 2011 10:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'm not interested in trading Shields because he's getting expensive.

I’m interested in trading him because he would bring a great return. HIs contract (three team options!!!) makes him extremely affordable for basically every team in baseball. I can’t recall a near elite pitcher who had that kind of financial flexibility.

@ptSuttery

by Suttree on Aug 2, 2011 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

Eh, disagree. He may be more expensive, but he's also a young stud that throws 95 MPH.

I’ve imagine teams would be jumping over the chance to bid on him. Pitchers like him rarely get put on the trade block.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Aug 2, 2011 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

I obviously don't want to trade Price either.

All I’m saying is that I can’t think of any reason for trading Shields that doesn’t also apply to Price.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Aug 2, 2011 10:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

In a vacuum, I don't think there is either.

But, it would be received even more poorly than a Shields trade. Even if he’s going to get expensive, paying 13m a year for a Top 10 pitcher is worth it, even on a 60m payroll.

@ptSuttery

by Suttree on Aug 2, 2011 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yes, as this team has shown they will do

We’re going through a 4-5 year cycle where the payroll will consistently climb with a year or two at the end where they lose money, but have a bananas team.

@SandyKazmir

Sometimes you eat the bear...

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 2, 2011 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

I can think of one huge one.

One is outproducing what I’d call his TTL while the other is underperfoming it.

by rglass44 on Aug 2, 2011 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yup, true.

Gets at what Sutty just said above too. Price is better and would be more bang for the buck….definitely agree. Which is why I’d like to keep him instead.

But again, I just don’t think we should rule out thinking about Price…be willing to consider all possibilities, and all that jazz. At the very least, we have to start taking into account that he’s going to start getting expensive, and he’s no longer an automatic no brainer. An extension would be oh, so nice, but I don’t know what the odds of that are.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Aug 2, 2011 10:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

This is one of the things that need fiuxed.

The whole intent of the 6 year MLB service clock and the three arby years, i’d hope were to benefit small-mid teams. When it becomes too pricey to afford an arby guy the system is broken

follow me on twitter @sternfan10

by sternfan1 on Aug 2, 2011 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

Has it, though?

Or has the stratification of MLB payrolls just manifested itself in market value being unaffordable to teams at the arbitration stage of contractions?

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 2, 2011 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

The system does work, if Price is worth $25-30M and you get the privilege of paying him $10 then that is your reward

The system is not designed to keep players as indentured servants in perpetuity, only their first three years.

@SandyKazmir

Sometimes you eat the bear...

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 2, 2011 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

Stevesies, I still think your 50m projection for the Rays payroll next year is bullshit.

76m in 2010, 63m in 2009. Let’s start at 60m and work from there.

@ptSuttery

by Suttree on Aug 2, 2011 10:46 AM EDT reply actions  

What's the average of the last three years?

76+63+42 or so? That’s 181 … /3 = 60 or so, so yeah, I guess that might work.

by R.J. Anderson on Aug 2, 2011 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions  

I like the chance that both Shoppach and Damon will be off the payroll next season.

We can replace Shoppach internally and use the money towards a proper DH/1B. I do suspect we will re-sign Kotchman, though.

@ptSuttery

by Suttree on Aug 2, 2011 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

I wouldn't be so sure.

I’m not pro-Kotchman by any means, but where are these firstbaseman/DH replacements at? Everyone always says how easy it is to replace Kotchman/Damon like production, but where is it at a low price?

It wouldn’t hurt to take a shot at another younger, once-failed prospect (in the Pena, Johnson, Kotchman mold) and keep Kotchman around just in case.

by tallyray on Aug 2, 2011 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

The problem with what you propose, which I generally agree should be tried, is that the floor is really low on guys like that

For every Pena there is a Choi or Blalock that should be selling tractors somewhere.

@SandyKazmir

Sometimes you eat the bear...

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 2, 2011 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

I agree.

The problem is that there is such a huge gap in 1B/DH types, you can’t really go acquire a good one on the free agent trade market. There are the great ones (Prince, Pujols, Howard, Gonzalez, Tex) then there are a whole bunch of highly paid old guys. There isn’t as much of a middle ground as there seems to be at other positions.

The options are to take a risk by trading a bunch for a young prospect type or just hoarding past flameouts and hoping one works. They seem to have done ok with the latter option.

by tallyray on Aug 2, 2011 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

Kotchman gets re-signed if the Rays add power elsewhere

The lack of power is the only reason that Kotchman isn’t getting enough love here, now and moving forward, IMO.

by budman3 on Aug 2, 2011 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions  

Granted this may be an outlier season...

…except for one thing. His approach and his success as a spray/high BA hitter this season resembles a perennial type of high BA player. Whatever happened in the past and maybe because his lasik surgery made the difference, he knows how to hit, he has a mental plan in the box, makes adjustments to pitchers and pitches within AB’s, and hits the ball where it is thrown. That is impressive.

by budman3 on Aug 2, 2011 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

Except the league adjusted to Bartlett from mid 2009 and beyond.

He had holes in his swing(up and in to R’s and low away to L’s) and that continued to anything inside the last 2 seasons as a Ray.
The league has yet to adjust to Kotchman and I think he will be much harder to pitch to because of his mind set and swing.

by budman3 on Aug 2, 2011 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

He had like a 740 OPS since 2008.

Not seeing how they haven’t adjusted to him.

by R.J. Anderson on Aug 2, 2011 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

Kotchman showing remarkable consistency over the course of this year

You wouldn’t bring him back on a 2/5 kind of deal if he’ll take it? That kind of savings allows us to bring back Beej and spend money on a DH or SS or C.

@SandyKazmir

Sometimes you eat the bear...

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 2, 2011 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

You wouldn't do a deal for any dollar amount?

Now I know you’re just arguing emotionally. At some point you have to admit that you missed this one and just move on. Literally, everyone else has. Maybe he’s not this good last year, but he’s not as bad as 2009 either. .330 wOBA for virtually nothing with excellent defense is much better than bringing Johnny Damon back to hit like that at DH with no defense.

@SandyKazmir

Sometimes you eat the bear...

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 2, 2011 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

If the Rays can't find a power hitting 1st baseman for 2012, than you make some sort of 1 year 1.5 million dollar commitmment to Kotch

If you gain a lot more power from other positions over the winter, you can maybe add a season2yrs/3 million.

by budman3 on Aug 2, 2011 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

He's going to have some leverage and be hoping to parlay this year into a multi year deal at the expense of dollars

If I’m him I’d rather have a 2-3 year deal for slightly less money than a 1 year deal for slightly more.

@SandyKazmir

Sometimes you eat the bear...

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 2, 2011 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

Because you can't eat the cost if it doesn't pan out for a year and a half?

I don’t see how you can hope that we get rid of Beej on one hand to find a 1B when we can keep both and use what would have been spent to patch other holes.

@SandyKazmir

Sometimes you eat the bear...

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 2, 2011 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

Can't isn't the word I'm thinking of

There just isn’t much reason to set yourself up for it.

by R.J. Anderson on Aug 2, 2011 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

So you don't even keep it in your mind as an option? You're moving on regardless of the dollar/year figures?

Seems silly for a cat that usually tries to keep an open mind and give every idea a chance.

@SandyKazmir

Sometimes you eat the bear...

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 2, 2011 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

All I've said I wouldn't give him two years.

If there’s an option or whatever and he’s literally the only first baseman with a pulse, maybe I’d do it. Otherwise, I don’t see why you’d pay Kotchman when you could get the same skill set for less. I’m sure James Loney will be looking for a job.

by R.J. Anderson on Aug 2, 2011 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

None of these players are as good at the dish or in the field, I know you're all for lower cost/lower talent players, but hopefully

someday, you’ll overcome the brainwashing that you’ve received from our FO. We all miss the old R.J. and wish he would come home and do honest analysis instead of just being angry that he missed on something.

@SandyKazmir

Sometimes you eat the bear...

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 2, 2011 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

As I sent to FZ in an email a week or two ago:

2008-2011

Kotchman: .267/.329/.393

Loney: .277/.337/.398

Ishikawa: .264/.328/.396

  

2009-2011

Kotchman: .264/.329/.384

Loney: .272/.336/.384

Ishikawa: .262/.326/.388

 

2010-2011

Kotchman: .262/.323/.385

Loney: .267/.323/.374

Ishikawa: .266/.320/.392

Ishi hasn’t played as much, but again, Loney is a non-tender candidate who isn’t coming off a great season, so I’m going to guess he’ll get less than Kotch.

by R.J. Anderson on Aug 2, 2011 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes the guy had an awful run from 2009 to 2010

Your continued reliance on that shows that you are incapable of making adjustments and will never evolve.

2008-2011
Beej: .245/.334/.398
Bourn: .271/.337/.359
Span: .289/.366/.391

2009-2011
Beej: .235/.315/.397
Bourn: .283/.351/.376
Span: .288/.361/.381

2010-2011
Beej: .232/.315/.411
Bourn: .282/.350/.371
Span: .272/.339/.358

Gee I wonder why we couldn’t get anything better than a rented mule reliever and a bad SS prospect.

@SandyKazmir

Sometimes you eat the bear...

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 2, 2011 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Bourn led CFers in WAR last year

and has been almost a 5 win player for 3 years in a row.

Tools Whore

by Tyler on Aug 2, 2011 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes, I just find it incredible that people are shocked that Beej didn't bring back some massive package

Dude is what he is. A problem in the clubhouse, a bad hitter in the box, and an overrated fielder in center. Nobody is giving us jack for that.

@SandyKazmir

Sometimes you eat the bear...

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 2, 2011 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Which is why the Nats made a big mistake

..and the Rays might have had an opportunity to get something of value, and need, from them when the Twins didn’t work out.

by budman3 on Aug 2, 2011 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

2011

Kotchman: .326/.384/.444
Loney: .253/.298/.322
Ishikawa: .266/.320/.392

And when the winter market is set, this will mean the most. Kotchman is going to make his money for what his value is for what team in interested in his skill set.

by budman3 on Aug 2, 2011 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, but what did he do in 2004?

How many homers did he hit in college?

@SandyKazmir

Sometimes you eat the bear...

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 2, 2011 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don;t think you get the same skills set(High BA and good defense) for less than 1-2 million a season at 1st base this winter

If the Rays think he can duplicate his hitting moving forward they will find a way to keep Kotchman in their line-up. To what extent, I don’t know. But .300+ hitters don’t grow on trees.

by budman3 on Aug 2, 2011 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

His OPS is not going to increase(and will go down) the more he keeps getting singles.

He is not getting XBH’s and that’s the only reason his OPS is going down. If he took more walks and had speed, he’d be batting lead-off. He is what he is this year..a very good BA hitter. Maddon just can’t figure out the best spot to put him in the line-up with what the other hitters struggling to find their offensive game.

by budman3 on Aug 2, 2011 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

Seriously, you can pretend he's Ichiro, but he's not.

His career BA is .267 in nearly 3,000 PA. His previous career high was .296. No reason to think he’s suddenly a true talent .300+ hitter. None.

by R.J. Anderson on Aug 2, 2011 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

Strange things happen in baseball.

You should trust the larger sample size though, and common sense says ol’ boy ain’t gonna lead too many teams in infield hits.

by R.J. Anderson on Aug 2, 2011 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

You just can't predict baseball, Suzyn

Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com

by Imperialism32 on Aug 2, 2011 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

Tied for the lead with Longo and who would have expected either of them to be up there. I guess Longo is garbage as well since he only has good season when he BABIPs over .330

When you regress everything to the mean you remain realistic but you limit any chance of catching a falling star. That means you rarely if ever can make a high upside play as you’re more likely to look for higher floor/Lower ceiling types. Seems like the opposite of what a team on a limited budget should be doing.

@SandyKazmir

Sometimes you eat the bear...

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 2, 2011 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

His overall success this season is being overshadowed by a general lack of hitting from most everyone else around him in the Rays line-up.

You put a .320+ hitter somewhere in the middle in most any other line-up in baseball and you would have a player who is helping a team score a lot of runs. If the Rays were scoring a ton of runs, no one would be criticizing Kochman to the level they are, IMO.

by budman3 on Aug 2, 2011 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

This is not the argument against Kotchman.

The argument is that his performance is unsustainable.

@ptSuttery

by Suttree on Aug 2, 2011 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

He didn't have Lasik.

Jacque Jones and countless other players who you won’t remember did, and it didn’t show up as much as you would think.

by R.J. Anderson on Aug 2, 2011 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

Eh, we'll see. I'd love if that was the case.

Just based on the narrative they seem to be driving, I don’t see how they can justify increasing the payroll $20m this offseason after receiving such low attendance this year. It would make them some more friends with fans and such, but totally blows a hole in their “bad revenues, new stadium!” schtick.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Aug 2, 2011 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yes, but you're still increasing payroll by a huge percentage after attendance has been down considerably.

They’d be handing the other side ammunition. I can just see that turning into an anti-stadium attack ad right there.

Again, not to say I agree with the rationale, if this is the case. Just that I still think the odds are still pretty against them raising payroll by that much. $50-55m seems more realistic to me as a high-end projection.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Aug 2, 2011 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

There is virtually no chance of this being an attack point in a stadium debate.

When there are so many other criticisms that people can relate to and actually make a difference.

I mean, did attendance increase at a level commensurate with the payroll hike from 2008 to 2010?

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 2, 2011 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

.
It would make them some more friends with fans and such, but totally blows a hole in their "bad revenues, new stadium!" schtick.

Do you believe that the team cares more about fidelity to this narrative than winning?

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 2, 2011 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

I don't know. I do think the stadium issue has become more important to them of late.

And that MLB is likely going to start caring too, if they don’t already.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Aug 2, 2011 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

It concerns me that you can't say 'no' to that question.

And yet still hold management in high regard, as a fan of this team.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 2, 2011 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions  

Well, you phrased the question in such a way as to be damning.

The Rays care about winning, obviously. And they’ve shown they’re willing to put money into the team and invest in the area…also obviously.

But as I said below, their reality and understanding about this market has shifted since when they began, and I wouldn’t be surprised if they find themselves needing to be more conservative with the budgets since the increased attendance and revenue isn’t coming. I guess I don’t really see it as upholding the narrative as it is operating under a new set of circumstances.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Aug 2, 2011 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

I thought it was a pretty straightforward question, that got to the root of the whole 'suppress payroll to bolster the stadium argument' idea.

I would’ve answered no, because on-balance I give the FO the benefit of the doubt. What you got into in the second paragraph is a whole different story.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 2, 2011 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, fair enough.

If we’re just talking about the stadium crap, then yeah, I’m right with you. And in retrospect, I think I overstated the stadium schtick bit, since I don’t even think they’ve angled for it all that hard.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Aug 2, 2011 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

If I recall correctly, Silverman said the organization specifically did not want to bring up the new stadium again this year.

This was after Maddon blew up and Foster slammed the Rays about it. Apparently the organization was pretty pissed at Maddon about it. Not that they lectured him or anything, but he isn’t the guy they want talking about it.

@ptSuttery

by Suttree on Aug 2, 2011 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

That's not how I read it.

Sternberg said his piece and said he didn’t want to talk about it the rest of the year during the Red Sox series. Then, two days later, Maddon jumped on the gravy train with the ESPN retards and complained about the stadium, and Silverman backed him up.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 2, 2011 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

I also think it's worth remembering that back in '09 and such, the Rays were operating under the premise that if you win and invest in the team, the fans will come.

The fans didn’t come, so now the Rays have a new reality they need to deal with. I wouldn’t be surprised at all if their plan of attack changes re: their payroll management.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Aug 2, 2011 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yes, I too find it hard to believe one of a team's few sources of income has an effect on payroll.

It’s revenue sharing, TV/radio, merchandise, and tickets. Unless I’m missing something.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Aug 2, 2011 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

Nate did a whole series on market sizes/evaluation if that's what you're talking about.

If not, I’ll keep searching in Huckaby’s archive for something that might look like a financial analysis.

by R.J. Anderson on Aug 2, 2011 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed, it's awesome.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Aug 2, 2011 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

Wonder what he's up to these days

Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com

by Imperialism32 on Aug 2, 2011 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

Sarcasm fail

Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com

by Imperialism32 on Aug 2, 2011 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

You shut your mouf, Gaggler

@SandyKazmir

Sometimes you eat the bear...

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 2, 2011 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

I don't think we need to have an attendance chat, but there are plenty of reasons for it.

Aspiring for mediocrity isn’t going to win anyone over when it comes to getting a new stadium.

@ptSuttery

by Suttree on Aug 2, 2011 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions  

"...spend less than they're capable of"

That’s the part I don’t buy. But then we’re just getting into yesterday’s argument all over again.

We’re really not off by that much. You’re hoping they put up a $60m payroll next year, I’m saying $50-55 is more likely. In the end, we’re kinda quibbling over stupid stuff. I still think these guys will ramp it up whenever they feel they can compete and invest in the team if they’re close….I guess I just think they have a slightly tighter financial situation than you do.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Aug 2, 2011 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

Is it possible that the team will invest when the return will be the greatest?

And that payroll isn’t tied as much to hard numbers as it is to the benefit?

An extra 10-15 million on this years payroll would have been a mistake since the teams flaws weren’t as clear. There were a lot of questions going into 2011 and just throwing money around wouldn’t have answered many.

I wouldn’t be surprised to see a large uptick in payroll as the teams problems become much more specific.

by tallyray on Aug 2, 2011 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think the line-up pitching depth can be filled through trades mainly

this off-season you trade Shields, since it was so widely discussed I’ll use the Reds as an example with Mesoraco and Alonso. That helps out at 1B/C. I also think you try and move BJ for some pitching depth ideally AA guys.

Go with a rotation of Price, Hellickson, Cobb, Davis, Niemann in 2012 with Moore/Torres waiting around the deadline if you can move one of the back end guys or if there is an injury.

off-season 2012 you trade Price for whatever is best package of hitting/pitching and you still have a rotation of Hellickson, Moore, Cobb, Niemann, Davis, Torres, Archer + whomever you brought back in Upton, Price, Shields trades.

we are loaded with guys who can be serviceable 4/5 guys (Niemann, Davis, Archer, Torres) and Hellickson is a solid #2 and Cobb a #3 hopefully Moore can be ready to be the #1 by 2013.

by Dbullsfan on Aug 2, 2011 11:25 AM EDT reply actions  

sell it to the indians

put a new stadium up on the reservation and put a casino in the outfield, while not very probable, someone brought up that idea on the radio a few weeks back and it didn’t sound that bad. good location and would probably draw pretty well, should be fine because they don’t have a sports book there anyway.

by Dbullsfan on Aug 2, 2011 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

not really about selling the team to them

but putting a stadium there wouldn’t be the worst idea, but not the best either. Speaking as a fan, not as a business owner/responsible human being

by Dbullsfan on Aug 2, 2011 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

well i don't know...

If people went to the game and not only bought beer and hot dogs, but gambled as well that would be a huge amount of revenue. But then the ballpark would no longer be a family friendly place so that will never happen

by nwlando on Aug 2, 2011 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

Awful

Sign lady must die.
#rootingforstusbottomline

by EminenceFront on Aug 2, 2011 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

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