Thinking Through A B.J. Upton Extension
I know, I know - just yesterday I was saying the Rays are still likely to trade B.J. Upton over this offseason, so what's this talk about an extension? But there was a great conversation in yesterday's comments and while I don't want to simply rehash the entire discussion, I think this topic deserves some fleshing out.
The Rays essentially have three options with Upton: trade him over the offseason, keep him and trade him at next year's deadline, or sign him to an extension. So what are the pros and cons of each option?
Trade Him This Offseason: The Rays likely get the best return possible for Upton, as there aren't going to be many attractive free agents center fielders on the market and he'll have a full season of team control left. This return likely won't be much different than what we were forecasting for Upton at this year's deadline, though -- -- and could just as well be smaller. It depends on how desperate other teams get for an outfielder.
Keep Him and Trade Him at the Deadline: If the Rays want to make a push for contention in 2012, they would have a better team if they kept Upton and started the year with him. They could still deal Upton at the deadline if they fall out of the race, but then they'll be getting a smaller return for Upton. And if the Rays stay in contention all season and don't trade Upton as a result, there's a decent chance that the Rays could get no compensation for him when he becomes a free agent.
Sign Upton to an Extension: The most convincing argument I've seen in favor of this option is Kevin's post from this morning on the weaknesses in the Rays' minor leagues. Up to this point, the Rays have been able to trade away players as soon as they become expensive and not miss a beat. Their minor league system was churning out prospect after prospect, so there have been a multitude of players ready to fill in whenever someone was traded.
But after Brandon Guyer gets promoted, the Rays will have no more exciting position prospects left in the high minors. It's going to be a number of years before Josh Sale and company reach the majors, meaning any holes the Rays develop in the outfield they would need to fill some other way. Keeping Upton would allow the Rays to play Jennings in left field and Guyer in right field, keeping Ben Zobrist at second base and putting Matt Joyce at 1B/DH and switching out with Guyer.
Without Upton, the Rays would need to rely on Guyer and Joyce as an everyday guys (which I think they can be), and they'd still have a hole at 1B/DH. So keeping Upton would make the Rays a stronger and deeper team, but how much would he cost? He's likely to get around $7 million this year in arbitration (guess/estimate, but it seems reasonable), so someone yesterday suggest something like a three year deal at $7/9/10.5.
Would Upton go for something like that? It's tough to say; it really would depend on how much he wanted to stick around in Tampa Bay versus hitting the free agency market. He'd make more money by hitting the market, but he'd get to stick around in TB for a few more seasons this way while having some security.
The Rays are going to start having some hard choices to make. Over the last few seasons, many of the moves were pretty obvious -- the Garza and Bartlett trades were both forshadowed and anticipated considerably, for example. But the Rays have a wide range of ways they can move going forward. Do they trade Shields, or do they shop Niemann/Davis instead? Do they invest in Upton, even if that means they can't invest in other players for as long? Do they make a big push to win in 2012, and if so, do they push Matt Moore toward the majors faster?
But anyway, I'm getting way ahead of myself -- it's still the regular season and we've still got lots of baseball to enjoy before having to ponder this sort of stuff more in depth.
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Comments
Resign Him?????
That would be INSANE! He has declined every year as a ballplayer since 2007. Unless he changes that ridiculously long sweeping swing of his,he NEVER will consistently hit for average. TRADE HIM THIS WINTER! At this rate,he will not even be a type A free agent at the end of 2012.
Justin's Swing vs B.J.s
B.J. should look at his brother’s swing closely.It’s short and quick to the ball.
what i think you're saying and hope to God it's not true
this ownership is going to run on a skeletal budget forcing the community to shit or get off the pot ojn the stadium issue
follow me on twitter @sternfan10
Yep.
Sign lady must die.
#rootingforstusbottomline
by EminenceFront on Aug 2, 2011 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions
I would not put it past them to torpedo their own investment, short-term, in order to achieve long-term goals.
Sign lady must die.
#rootingforstusbottomline
by EminenceFront on Aug 2, 2011 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I don't see how this advances their long-term goal.
They can’t just spend $70 million, refuse to even approach that amount again, and cry poor without pissing off the very people that they’re seeking to win over.
Also, I strongly believe that these people have huge egos and want to win irrespective of where they play.
by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 2, 2011 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Agree with last part.
Who would want to not try to win, especially when they do they can talk mad smack with anyone.
I do this for free
I didn't say they are doing it.
But given their background with Goldman Sachs, and how Wall St. operates, nothing would surprise me.
Sign lady must die.
#rootingforstusbottomline
by EminenceFront on Aug 2, 2011 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions
The difference is that was 100% a business.
This team, OTOH, is largely a hobby through which they pursue their passions, with some level of fiscal restraint and an eye toward eventually selling out of an asset that has increased in value.
by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 2, 2011 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Fair.
Sign lady must die.
#rootingforstusbottomline
by EminenceFront on Aug 2, 2011 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions
I've given this BJ Upton situation a lot of thought
Mu conclusion is he’s more valuable to the Rays than what he’d return
I try this off seson to sign him to a 5/$45-50mil extension with the last year $10-12 being a club option
We really don’t have enough high level talent in the system as Kevin points out, so it makes sense
follow me on twitter @sternfan10
You do so well when you're not just pushing buttons.
Completely agree with this kind of deal. If he’s still going to peak around his prime, this will capture it.
by Lurch's Lobbyists on Aug 2, 2011 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions
There is no way that BJ is worth an escalating salary that averages 9-10 million dollars.
Not for his skill set which is already regressing and not on a team where he would be the highest paid player(per year) over most of that time frame.
The more I think about it, the more I'd be on board with this sort of deal.
Like you said, the lack of talent coming up through the minors is what really makes me want to do it. Trying to purchase similar talent on the FA market won’t come cheap.
That said, both the Rays and Upton need to be on board for something like this to happen. It really comes down to how much Upton is looking for, since he doesn’t have much incentive right now to sign a very team-friendly deal and ignore free agency.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow
by Steve Slowinski on Aug 2, 2011 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions
This is pure and utter speculation,
But I wonder it this line of thought is why the Rays pulled him off the market so quickly and so definitively. Receiving underwhelming offers is one thing, but to pull him off to such an extent seemed rather extreme.
I still think odds are Upton is traded this offseason or signed to an extension. If he won’t reach a deal, I don’t see the Rays opening the year with him.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow
by Steve Slowinski on Aug 2, 2011 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions
The Rays could be looking at a larger potential market in August as opposed to
only contenders right now. The Nationals may be interested in him, but they’ll be even more interested in him during the off season.
RaysRev.com or m_weber on twitter
In August? You're dumb as shit
@SandyKazmir
Sometimes you eat the bear...
by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 2, 2011 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I'm not so sure that the FO is willing to wait any longer for BJ to put it all together.
They way they roll they could find some inexpensive platoon system to make LF productive(DJ being the CF’er they want) or make a find(acquire) for a full time LF’er.
I won't speculate on the FO's opinions of Beej.
Most likely it would mean Guyer and Joyce playing full-time (maybe Fuld platooning with one or the other), but to me it’s 3.5-4 wins we’ve got to replace if we’ve lost Beej.
@ptSuttery
I agree, that how they view Guyer/Joyce or anyone else in LF plays in as part of the overall FO determinations.
But so is cost to replacement and how much Upton salary would be.
However, it’s not just about replacing Uptons’s wins…IF DJ can replace 2-3 wins out of CF, the Rays only need 1-2 to make an overall gain. And they may feel they can do that (or better)without resigning him. Less money for BJ means more money available to make upgrades elsewhere as well.
FO has to look at the big picture(all areas of needed improvement) in their thinking.
Jennings can almost certainly replicate BJ's win total in CF. The problem is will Guyer replicate what Jennings would do in LF given a full season.
@ptSuttery
Certainly we can get rid of BJ without really losing anything. But, we won't be taking a step forward.
@ptSuttery
Could be if there is enough money and smart decisions made in all the other areas where the Rays can upgrade.
And I think there were possibilities this past deadline and the FO will be making every effort to find those improvements over the winter.
I seriously hope.
Let's say our salary cap is 55m.
If we let Damon and Shoppah walk, our payroll is down to 33-34 million. We have plenty of money to play with while still keeping Upton.
@ptSuttery
I'm not sure if the FO is looking at Upton's 7 million dollars for next season(in arby) is the concern.
It may be more the 8-10 per over the next 4(with an extension) that is troublesome to them. If they see that as a problem, the time to move him will be this winter, if getting maximum value for him is paramount.
And long term has only come into play with players this FO projects as being young enough and talented enough moving forward…and those extensions came pretty early in their careers(Longo, Price, Davis. Crawford(24), Kazmir(24). Upton is now 27.
I believe Zobrist was 28 when he got his extension?
by BJ the Bossman on Aug 2, 2011 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions
It's more on the player willing to face reality and trade dollars for security more than anything
@SandyKazmir
Sometimes you eat the bear...
I honestly believe that it's a compounded problem
Beej doesn’t want to resign because he knows half (99%?) of the fan base hates him, and the fan base hates him because he won’t resign. I wonder how much money really has to do with it
by BJ the Bossman on Aug 2, 2011 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions
If you were a player, would you take any extension the Rays offered?
by internet commenter on Aug 2, 2011 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes, how much money do you need? Is there a huge different between 30 and 50M to a 27 year old that still has another big contract when he hits 31?
@SandyKazmir
Sometimes you eat the bear...
20 million dollars is a pretty big difference.
B.J isn’t a rays fan, why would he want to give them a discount?
by internet commenter on Aug 2, 2011 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Because in his mind he will be worth more in 3-4 years than he is right now?
Same thing Crawford did. Signed an agreeable extension that led to the highest contract ever signed by an outfielder.
@SandyKazmir
Sometimes you eat the bear...
To be fair, Craw signed that when he was 22/23.
by R.J. Anderson on Aug 2, 2011 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, it's not as comparable as first blush indicates, but the idea of securing all the wealth you ever need
with the ability to get another fat contract is the same.
@SandyKazmir
Sometimes you eat the bear...
B.J may feel what he's earning now is all the money he'll ever need,
so he might as well try and maximize his future earnings.
by internet commenter on Aug 2, 2011 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Fair, I'm not going to play psychologist, but there are certainly two sides to the coin
@SandyKazmir
Sometimes you eat the bear...
There is very little way that I think the FO values Upton at a 8-10 million dollar player.
Bpt when they will have to decide what to pay Longoria who will be making 4.5 and 6 million over the next two seasons(and than his option years kick in and may have to be renegotiated). Price’s contarct will also have to be factored in.
Why would his option years have to be renegotiated?
Was he drunk when he signed the contract? Is that even a valid breach of contract?
@SandyKazmir
Sometimes you eat the bear...
Come 2014, Longoria and the market may determine that he is seriously underpaid (at 7.5 million dollars).
And though 2015 and 2016 are 11+ million dollar team options)and appear nice now, it’s hard to say what Longoria’s market value might be then as well.
Yes, but his name is on the contract, if he pouts then he pouts, but he has to honor the contract
@SandyKazmir
Sometimes you eat the bear...
Who was the last baseball player to hold out for a larger contract?
He has to honor the contract but the Rays may understand his future value and want to extend him out.
Longoria has the same contract as Ryan Braun had. They just extended him with a new contract that doesn’t kick in until his old one runs out in 2015. To another 6 year deal worth 91 million that runs through 2020(with an added option year).
That may be out of the Rays wallet and vision right now but it is something they might have to consider, especially if the next 3 years for Longoria becomes an issue in looking at the entire teams salary structure.
Yes, the Rays are going to agree to pay a player more than they agreed to
Start holding your breath on that one
@SandyKazmir
Sometimes you eat the bear...
FO's may be all business but consider this..
In 2014 the Rays will be paying Shields 9 million, Maybe Upton 9 million(by some here’s estimation on an extension), Price, who may get 9 million on his new contract by then, Zobrist will be making 7 million and Davis will be owed 5 million.
Don’t you think the Rays FO will decide by then that maybe they need to tear up Longo’s deal, making 7.5 million? What if he wins an MVP award by then?
That gives them even more ammunition to leave it as is
They’re not going to restructure if it means they pay out more than the initial deal called for. If Longo is going to be a crybaby about it they’ll trade him for the moon and someone else can restructure, but it won’t happen on this FO’s watch.
@SandyKazmir
Sometimes you eat the bear...
Why would any of this urge the Rays to void his current contract
It only makes him more valuable. He can bitch all he wants and if we ever did trade him we would get someone’s entire farm system. I have no idea why a player outperforming his contract would push a FO to pay him more. That’s like Burrell telling Friedman to renegotiate the deal because he sucked
by BJ the Bossman on Aug 2, 2011 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions
And I wonder how much frustration over his performance compounds all sides
If 20 year old Beej knew he was performing like this over the last 3-4 years he would be disgusted with himself
@SandyKazmir
Sometimes you eat the bear...
Can't wait for the 2012 version of the "Upton feels this is his year" article!
Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com
by Imperialism32 on Aug 2, 2011 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions
At a time where they had no equal replacement at 1st base
both in terms of massive power(at the position and from the entire team), defense and when they made a conscious effort to increase the payroll to much higher levels( I believe it was close to a 70% increase from the year before)
If you think Jennings replaces Beej then who replaces Jennings?
I’m not sold on Guyer and you end up just shifting your holes.
@SandyKazmir
Sometimes you eat the bear...
I'm with you big guy
7/8.5/10.5/13/13 with the last two as option years
@SandyKazmir
Sometimes you eat the bear...
by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 2, 2011 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Mahtook is probably the next OF prospect up after Guyer
And he hasn’t signed yet, so that should tell you all you need to know
Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com
I'm unconvinced
Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com
by Imperialism32 on Aug 2, 2011 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions
And he just got back from his college prom
@SandyKazmir
Sometimes you eat the bear...
by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 2, 2011 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions
"college prom"
are there such things?
Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com
by Imperialism32 on Aug 2, 2011 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions
I was never in a frat, but maybe, just riffing on the sf1 joke about how all are decent bats are truly diaper dandies
@SandyKazmir
Sometimes you eat the bear...
Hell yeah
We need to lock up that 9 hitter !
If it's a really really team friendly contract and nothing else is available...
Yeah I still wouldn’t do it.
@dobbertweets
If we could somehow combine Joyce's offense & Kotch's defense into...
#MagicJoyceKotch
RaysRev.com or m_weber on twitter
I just moved to the area
But in anticipation of making the Rays my American League team I have followed pretty strictly and am a HUGE MLB fan. So here’s my 2 cents…
I would hate to see yet another “Big Name” leave the Rays, but it doesn’t go much further than that. He is a potential 5 tool player, but how long can you say that until he proves it wrong. In order to steal bases, you need to get on base. Currently B.J. has an OBP of .306 which is worse than: Longoria, Joyce, Kotchman, Zobrist, Damon, and Rodriguez. His AVG. is at .224, .171 at home. That’s brutal. If other teams want him, the Rays can use a boost to their minor league system and SHOULD let another team overpay for him. If he has that potential he is not going to reach it at the Trop in front of 7,000 fans… he is going to need a boost somewhere else.
Again, I like his potential, but that word is starting to lose its meaning in terms of B.J. Upton. You hit upon the fact that the Rays have maxed out their system, well its time to beef it up, and it begins with getting rid of Upton.
See you at the game tonight!
GO BULLS AND BLACKHAWKS!
by SouthsideCUBSfan on Aug 2, 2011 12:34 PM EDT reply actions
Intelligent new poster?
get out
Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com
by Imperialism32 on Aug 2, 2011 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions
This is where I stopped reading and caring about your opinion.
he is not going to reach it at the Trop in front of 7,000 fans
Sign lady must die.
#rootingforstusbottomline
by EminenceFront on Aug 2, 2011 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Yup, ignore all his other decent points
Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com
by Imperialism32 on Aug 2, 2011 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah like batting average!
Sign lady must die.
#rootingforstusbottomline
by EminenceFront on Aug 2, 2011 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions
What exactly is BJ excelling at this year?
by Dome Biscuit on Aug 2, 2011 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Homeruns.
Sign lady must die.
#rootingforstusbottomline
by EminenceFront on Aug 2, 2011 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions
This.
His power is not something to dismiss.
by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 2, 2011 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions
That's a little misleading.
He is hitting more home runs, but overall, his power has been down from last year
ISO
2009: .132
2010: .187
2011: .170
XBH/H
2009: 36 percent
2010: 47 percent
2011: 36 percent
by R.J. Anderson on Aug 2, 2011 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Was going to say this.
Sign lady must die.
#rootingforstusbottomline
by EminenceFront on Aug 2, 2011 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions
That's fine.
Your point is well-taken, but just a look at any of his home run swings this year gives a glimpse into the full extent of his ability.
by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 2, 2011 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions
It's like October 2008 all over again.
Sign lady must die.
#rootingforstusbottomline
by EminenceFront on Aug 2, 2011 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Can't you say the same thing about Kotchman, Shoppach, and just about any other player?
When they get one, it goes really far, but that doesn’t mean they’re going to ever become good hitters over isolated displays of brilliance.
by R.J. Anderson on Aug 2, 2011 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions
When Beej makes contact it's hit hard, the first part is the issue not the latter.
@SandyKazmir
Sometimes you eat the bear...
So how does he make more contact?
Tinkering with his swing mechanics might not be something the Rays or Upton will do because he is a successful hitter still at this point.
by R.J. Anderson on Aug 2, 2011 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions
This is who he is, I wouldn't tinker with anything other than perhaps testing his vision
@SandyKazmir
Sometimes you eat the bear...
Get that eye juice out.
Sign lady must die.
#rootingforstusbottomline
by EminenceFront on Aug 2, 2011 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions
It's pretty common for vision to deteriorate over your lifetime
He’s clearly having trouble with pitch recognition. What would it hurt to see if that’s an issue. The upside is a guy that hits everything hard actually hitting more pitches
@SandyKazmir
Sometimes you eat the bear...
2008 Upton is something we're never going to experience again.
So disciplined.
by R.J. Anderson on Aug 2, 2011 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I'd also suggest he get more trigger happy with two pitches, but that just means he'll see more breaking balls
@SandyKazmir
Sometimes you eat the bear...
Possibly going to a heavier bat
it might help keep him keep his hands in more.
by Blue or CONKZILLA on Aug 3, 2011 1:58 AM EDT up reply actions
Come on, you know that comparison is not fair.
by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 2, 2011 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions
B.J. is vastly superior to those guys, I just meant you can say that about nealy any major league hitter, no?
by R.J. Anderson on Aug 2, 2011 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Mmm, I'm not sure you necessarily can in the way I mean.
His swing appears so effortless and he drives the ball really far given his frame, and he does it often enough that I think there’s a decent observational case to be made for asserting his power.
by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 2, 2011 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions
I'd agree with that.
I guess my questions are:
1) How likely do you think it is he can unlock that
2) At what point do you just accept it won’t happen
by R.J. Anderson on Aug 2, 2011 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions
I think No. 2 comes into play in two or three years.
Not sure about No. 1, but I think the value he will almost certainly bring combined with the value that he could bring if things work out makes keeping him around for those two or three years worth it.
by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 2, 2011 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions
It's an interesting situation
We aren’t talking about an Ian Desmond case here, where the guy is on the wrong side of 25 with no production and all tools. Upton is definitely a good player, I just don’t know if we’re at the point where we can still hope something clicks and he becomes the angular angel of offensive excellent we all thought he might become a few years ago.
by R.J. Anderson on Aug 2, 2011 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm going to feel horribly stupid when he goes somewhere and is told to start earlier, then turns into a 50 home run guy.
by R.J. Anderson on Aug 2, 2011 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions
If the problem is that simple and we couldn't fix it
shame on us
by BJ the Bossman on Aug 2, 2011 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Doesn't seem like his issue is with balls getting too deep on him at the plate
Pitch recognition seems like his biggest issue.
@SandyKazmir
Sometimes you eat the bear...
I agree
I’m just saying if the issue IS that simple and we didn’t recognize it after 5+ years then we have no one to blame but ourselves
by BJ the Bossman on Aug 2, 2011 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Also
If this does happen, I’m going to start chugging bleach every morning
by BJ the Bossman on Aug 2, 2011 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed on the premise that if there's an easy fix then we're dumb, obviously diagnosis is a bit harder
@SandyKazmir
Sometimes you eat the bear...
Next Jose Bautista
Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com
by Imperialism32 on Aug 2, 2011 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Jose Bautista'd
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow
by Steve Slowinski on Aug 2, 2011 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions
I find it hilarious when people make the argument that the Rays need to keep their homegrown players around and then out of the other side of their mouth they say we need to get rid of Beej
Not necessarily a reply to you, but more of a general statement.
@SandyKazmir
Sometimes you eat the bear...
you can't rail on BA as long as it is a sum rather than the whole
if BJ has a 300 BA—i’m suessing all his numbers look better
follow me on twitter @sternfan10
I didn't say that.
But referring to home/road BA splits is like trying to read a novel from the first three pages.
Sign lady must die.
#rootingforstusbottomline
by EminenceFront on Aug 2, 2011 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions
You have to win at home and play well at home
To draw a crowd, and to also WIN the hardest division in baseball.
GO BULLS AND BLACKHAWKS!
by SouthsideCUBSfan on Aug 2, 2011 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Okay?
Sign lady must die.
#rootingforstusbottomline
by EminenceFront on Aug 2, 2011 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions
OBP is a more important stat
GO BULLS AND BLACKHAWKS!
by SouthsideCUBSfan on Aug 2, 2011 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions
When he isn't proposing new stats or evaluating players, he isn't totally awful.
Some of his GM stuff, like how a deal comes together, etc. is actually decent.
by R.J. Anderson on Aug 2, 2011 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions
I would have to agree with that
Should be more commonly discussed
GO BULLS AND BLACKHAWKS!
by SouthsideCUBSfan on Aug 2, 2011 1:04 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Im not trolling
Unless, having a conversation is considered trolling.
GO BULLS AND BLACKHAWKS!
by SouthsideCUBSfan on Aug 2, 2011 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Just curious
where does the largest part of OBP come from?
by Blue or CONKZILLA on Aug 3, 2011 2:54 AM EDT up reply actions
Sorry, Ill get used to it
I honestly like the Rays, so dont take it personal. But players like B.J., who need to find new life, are not going to make that extra push and be rejuvenated by playing on an organization whose fans dont come out and support them. This is not an insult to anyone here who loves their team and supports them, but its true…
GO BULLS AND BLACKHAWKS!
by SouthsideCUBSfan on Aug 2, 2011 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Aaaand now I disagree
Was hoping the attendance thing was a throwaway comment
Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com
by Imperialism32 on Aug 2, 2011 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions
I'll take that apology now.
Sign lady must die.
#rootingforstusbottomline
by EminenceFront on Aug 2, 2011 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions
haha sorry man
GO BULLS AND BLACKHAWKS!
by SouthsideCUBSfan on Aug 2, 2011 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions
lol
Sign lady must die.
#rootingforstusbottomline
by EminenceFront on Aug 2, 2011 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions
He should be
But will he? Probably not, but hes terrible.
GO BULLS AND BLACKHAWKS!
by SouthsideCUBSfan on Aug 2, 2011 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions
What does that say about the Cubs roster
who play in front of sold crowds almost every home game?
by Blue or CONKZILLA on Aug 3, 2011 2:58 AM EDT up reply actions
Why the fuck do we get all the cubs fans?
Is it some sort of balance to watch a real team for once while their FO is shitting all over the place?
@dobbertweets
Hey, I love baseball
and Im glad I can go watch good baseball at a cheap price.
GO BULLS AND BLACKHAWKS!
by SouthsideCUBSfan on Aug 2, 2011 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions
This is a dumb comment
Again, I dont mean this as an insult, I really dont. You are in FLORIDA. There are transplants from all over the country, and the fact is, most of the people that move here have a team. If you didnt have fans from other places, you wouldnt have a team… its that simple.
GO BULLS AND BLACKHAWKS!
by SouthsideCUBSfan on Aug 2, 2011 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions
If you look around, which I would STRONGLY suggest you do before you post, you would see we have a few cubs fans already
That post and contribute.
But whatever, take a shot at me. Good plan.
@dobbertweets
Im not taking a shot at you at all man
But dont be blinded by reality.. this organization is trying to grow… and I hope it does man. Im glad your pissed at me, that means your a passionate Rays fan, and they deserve that.
GO BULLS AND BLACKHAWKS!
by SouthsideCUBSfan on Aug 2, 2011 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Those passionate Chicago fans really help the Cubbies WIN the weakest division in baseball.
Sign lady must die.
#rootingforstusbottomline
by EminenceFront on Aug 2, 2011 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions
We suck, but Im still a huge fan
Im not going to pretend they are a great team…
GO BULLS AND BLACKHAWKS!
by SouthsideCUBSfan on Aug 2, 2011 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Maybe having full attendance and great fans doesn't matter when it comes to winning.
Just a thought!
@ptSuttery
This sure works for the Cubs though, right?
You have to win at home and play well at home
To draw a crowd, and to also WIN the hardest division in baseball.
GO BULLS AND BLACKHAWKS!
by SouthsideCUBSfan on Aug 2, 2011 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Sign lady must die.
#rootingforstusbottomline
by EminenceFront on Aug 2, 2011 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Yea I can really delve into the attendance #s if you would like
But I dont want to overwhelm you with baseball knowledge
GO BULLS AND BLACKHAWKS!
by SouthsideCUBSfan on Aug 2, 2011 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions 6 recs
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
You patronizing fuck.
Sign lady must die.
#rootingforstusbottomline
by EminenceFront on Aug 2, 2011 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Dont take a shot at me because Im a Cubs fan
You need fans from other places as a base to this organization, being in Florida. They are finally seeing growth amongst fans from the area, because they have been successful for a couple years, I hope it stays that way and they grow.
GO BULLS AND BLACKHAWKS!
by SouthsideCUBSfan on Aug 2, 2011 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Thats a fair point
But you can’t overpay a guy and take that chance when youaren’t pulling in money from a guaranteed high attendance…that’s really all I’m saying. Cubs are a perfect example of what we are both trying to say…they can take the chance and overpay players and hope for a good result because they have a guaranteed intake of money with attendance and tv viewership…but, its not a guarantee to work, as the cubs have proven time and time again…it takes good management too, and well, they don’t have that
GO BULLS AND BLACKHAWKS!
by SouthsideCUBSfan on Aug 2, 2011 1:10 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Is this supposed to be a point about the Rays or the Cubs?
by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 2, 2011 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions
The Rays
Drawing a parallel based off money…
GO BULLS AND BLACKHAWKS!
by SouthsideCUBSfan on Aug 2, 2011 1:13 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Agreed
GO BULLS AND BLACKHAWKS!
by SouthsideCUBSfan on Aug 2, 2011 1:13 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
How is it an overpay? He's already been worth $6.8M with two months to go this year.
Our highest paid player makes $5M while Carlos Pena makes $10M and is the fifth highest paid Cub. You can’t apply the mindset that you’ve accrued as a Cub fan to the Rays. In short, read more, post less.
@SandyKazmir
Sometimes you eat the bear...
IF
They were to sign him for an extension..I believe it will be overpaying when they can’t afford that to backfire on them.
GO BULLS AND BLACKHAWKS!
by SouthsideCUBSfan on Aug 2, 2011 1:19 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
What's the value per win? Because I don't think that's right
He is only 1.5WAR.
Also I’m not sure if the Rays can afford to pay market value per win.
.
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=5015&position=OF#value
@SandyKazmir
Sometimes you eat the bear...
Therefore
You shouldn’t waste the money on B.J. Because they cant afford to eat that costif it doesn’t pan out
GO BULLS AND BLACKHAWKS!
by SouthsideCUBSfan on Aug 2, 2011 1:12 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
The same could be said about any sizeable investment the team makes.
You just have to weigh whether the probability of a failure is low enough, and the upside high enough, to justify a deal.
by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 2, 2011 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions
What pan out? At a minimum he's worth 2.5 WAR. That's $9M
If you overpay in the end it’s because you’ve gained a surplus in the beginning.
@SandyKazmir
Sometimes you eat the bear...
I really like BJ, and I'd love to see him stick around. I think he can really help this team.
But I’m sure the organization has been trying to get him to sign a long term deal for some time now to no avail. I don’t think the 7/9/10.5 is going to get it done. Our strength has always been pitching. Let’s use that money to extend Helly, Price, or Moore instead.
I'm not sure the cheap argument works here. They could have saved money for the rest of this year by trading away BJ at the deadline
Note: This isn’t aimed at the article so much as the nature of several comments.
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
If his arb price is 7m, that's really not that bad.
That’s just a little higher than what they’re paying Damon right now, a player who’s only going to be worth.. what, 1.5 wins?
@ptSuttery
Which win factor are you sticking with Sutt?
Previously above, you pegged Upton for 3.5 wins and here you say he’s 1.5
that's what it looks like Sutty is saying...
read the comment again
Fangraphs has Damon at .7 right now and Upton is 1.5
Where is the 3.5-4.0 coming from than?
Really?
B-Ref has 2.1 and 1.7 for Upton and Damon, respectively.
I'm looking at Fangraphs value section for each.
Where are you looking?
I see that....
B-Ref has fairly different figures.
That's a pretty significant difference..close to 1.0
and would confuse a lot of folks here when debating posts, no?
yeah...
but it was pretty clear that Sutty was talking about Damon
Ok but Sutt used BJ at 3.5-4.0 higher up in this post
Most likely it would mean Guyer and Joyce playing full-time (maybe Fuld platooning with one or the other), but to me it’s 3.5-4 wins we’ve got to replace if we’ve lost Beej.
@ptSuttery
probably because 3.5-4 wins has been what we can reasonably expect out of BJ in an average year
Yeah, I can see that...if you average out his career
But he’s been very up and very down his entire career and the last three if you take the average of B-Ref he’s at 2.6. At Fangraphs he’s at 2.9. And this year is shaping up to be his worst(when healthy).
That’s my question with him moving forward. What are you going to get and what is he worth?
Apparently, a reliever that's ready to break down and a SS that can't hit or field
@SandyKazmir
Sometimes you eat the bear...
Nah, that's what the Nats wanted to give the Twins for Span
Who has a similar WAR as Upton(about a 3 win WAR, average wise). I could see where the Twins balked.
I’d have preferred Norris/Ramos and Lombardozzi for Upton. Which the Nats would have probably balked at as well.
BTW. that would make a good discussion
Would you rather have Upton or Span right now? About the same age, same WAR, Upton has more power, Span is a prototypical lead-off guy.
Span will make 3, 4.75, 6.5 and a 9 million dollar option the next 4 years. Upton…?
Upton
Upton may eventually start to hit, Span is very unlikely to start putting up strong power numbers…also prefer B.J. defense because of his arm, more likely to hold runners.
by Blue or CONKZILLA on Aug 3, 2011 3:08 AM EDT up reply actions
Using either WAR h's been worth 7.7 wins since 2009. That comes out to 2.9/150 games.
I’d say taht’s a reasonable baseline expectation.
Maybe the paint I huffed this morning is affecting my analysis here
but did we really just have a thread with 150 comments where the only person who didn’t piss anyone off was Sterny? And not only did he not piss anyone off, but did everyone come to a consensus that he made a good point? Shiiiiiit
Sorry if you all took me personally
Not my intention at all….I came to this town to help market your team…
GO BULLS AND BLACKHAWKS!
by SouthsideCUBSfan on Aug 2, 2011 1:23 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
This kind of seems like a Nigerian trust fund scam.
@ptSuttery
by Suttree on Aug 2, 2011 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I could use some cash before I start
I start November 1st
GO BULLS AND BLACKHAWKS!
by SouthsideCUBSfan on Aug 2, 2011 1:28 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Please tell me you're going to join forces with either JoeBucsFan or Mike Weber if they're not the same person
Dynamic duo
@SandyKazmir
Sometimes you eat the bear...
Well please change your sig to "Go Rays" then
thats some bad pub dude
by BJ the Bossman on Aug 2, 2011 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Mutiny, Rowdies!
If you want to keep guns out of the hands of thugs, just attach job applications to them
Change Blue Devils to Tar Heels
If you want to keep guns out of the hands of thugs, just attach job applications to them
Haha
I have a personal account only on SBnation
GO BULLS AND BLACKHAWKS!
by SouthsideCUBSfan on Aug 2, 2011 1:26 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Haha
I have a personal account only on SBnation
GO BULLS AND BLACKHAWKS!
by SouthsideCUBSfan on Aug 2, 2011 1:26 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Haha
I have a personal account only on SBnation
I have no idea why it repeated my post
First time on SB nation in a while…will update my account
GO BULLS AND BLACKHAWKS!
by SouthsideCUBSfan on Aug 2, 2011 1:30 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I have no idea why it repeated my post
First time on SB nation in a while…will update my account
Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com
by Imperialism32 on Aug 2, 2011 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions
I have no idea why it repeated my post
First time on SB nation in a while…will update my account
If you want to keep guns out of the hands of thugs, just attach job applications to them
I have no idea why it repeated my post
First time on SB nation in a while…will update my account
If you want to keep guns out of the hands of thugs, just attach job applications to them
I have no idea why it repeated my post
First time on SB nation in a while…will update my account
by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 2, 2011 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions
I have no idea why it repeated my post
First time on SB nation in a while…will update my account
@ptSuttery
Haha
I have a personal account only on SBnation
by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 2, 2011 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Haha
I give in to peer pressure only on SBNation
Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com
by Imperialism32 on Aug 2, 2011 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions
B'J' thought he could follow the same career path
that Carl Crawford did. Play for the Rays until free agent and then cash in somewhere else. I don’t think the current market ,combined with his tallent level is going to let him do this. He will not be allowed to go to the greener grass to the extent that Carl did. His agent is now exploring other options for him , and staying with the Rays is now included.
or lead off
If you want to keep guns out of the hands of thugs, just attach job applications to them
Or give an decent interview without cliches
If you want to keep guns out of the hands of thugs, just attach job applications to them
You joke about this
But where do you think money comes from? Baseball doesn’t work like the Fed you can’t create money out of thin air. If the Tampa fan base showed up…they can afford to compete for the Crawfordsof the world when they reach their prime…otherwise turn out like the Expos.
GO BULLS AND BLACKHAWKS!
by SouthsideCUBSfan on Aug 2, 2011 3:45 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
bahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
I would rec this post 69 times if I could.
by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 2, 2011 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Come on, man.
First of all, my sardonic remark was regarding his play while he was here and the comments he made when he left. Second of all, even if we COULD have afforded to give Crawford 7/$142M, it would still be a bad deal and I would not have wanted it. Let Boston and New York dole out those conspicuous consumption contracts that cannot possibly return the value in wins, much less marginal wins for teams that are already winning around 90 games a season without him. And where do I think money comes from in baseball? Revenue sharing, merchandise, broadcasting, and turnstiles. Turnstiles aren’t close to the whole picture. All this typing, and I still managed to avoid your retarded troll-bait about the federal reserve.
Its not trolling
Just cause you disagree….
GO BULLS AND BLACKHAWKS!
by SouthsideCUBSfan on Aug 2, 2011 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions
As a matter of fact i have spent a good amount of time on BCB
And it was the first time I was considered trolling you weak minded fuck… I came on here for a legit convo, not to talk shit.
GO BULLS AND BLACKHAWKS!
by SouthsideCUBSfan on Aug 2, 2011 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions
I came on here
Simply to say after this year I dont think the rays should sign Upton…they dont have the funds to take a chance…one reason being their crowd…and people took that personal when I didn’t mean it personally.that’s my line of business..to put people in the seats….again sorry if you consider that trolling. Go search my first couple post on here today.you can disagree but no need to go off…
On the way to the game right now…to cheer on YOUR team and to watch some baseball…does that hurt your feelings too?
GO BULLS AND BLACKHAWKS!
by SouthsideCUBSfan on Aug 2, 2011 5:53 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Yea
Crawford and B.J are on different planets
GO BULLS AND BLACKHAWKS!
by SouthsideCUBSfan on Aug 2, 2011 1:41 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
he is just one example but I wonder if BJ is likely to go on a similar path as Granderson
there numbers aren’t horrible off from each other, high K , low OBP, and Grandy is just now starting to show off the power he has shown flashes in the past of having (Grandy is 30)
Rays always use option years to extend a player
So how about 3 years/33 mil guaranteed for Upton with 3 option years, 12 mil, 14 mil and 16 mil. I am sure he get’s traded by that 14 mil year. It’s not exactly 142 players and even if he has been frustrating, somebody has to be Mr. Ray already and I don’t see that in Longo or Price. Maybe Shields.
Under construction
Too rich.
That might be what it takes to extend him, and if so, that’s money better spent elsewhere. Also, Longo is Mr. Ray (King).
+1
GO BULLS AND BLACKHAWKS!
by SouthsideCUBSfan on Aug 2, 2011 3:46 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I'd like to see
7/9/10.5(team option)/12(team option).
by Blue or CONKZILLA on Aug 3, 2011 3:24 AM EDT reply actions










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