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Thinking Through A B.J. Upton Extension

SEATTLE - JULY 31:  B.J. Upton #2 of the Tampa Bay Rays breaks his bat on a groundout to second in the fifth inning against the Seattle Mariners at Safeco Field on July 31, 2011 in Seattle, Washington. The Rays defeated the Mariners 8-1. (Photo by Otto Greule Jr/Getty Images)

I know, I know - just yesterday I was saying the Rays are still likely to trade B.J. Upton over this offseason, so what's this talk about an extension? But there was a great conversation in yesterday's comments and while I don't want to simply rehash the entire discussion, I think this topic deserves some fleshing out.

The Rays essentially have three options with Upton: trade him over the offseason, keep him and trade him at next year's deadline, or sign him to an extension. So what are the pros and cons of each option?

Star-divide

Trade Him This Offseason: The Rays likely get the best return possible for Upton, as there aren't going to be many attractive free agents center fielders on the market and he'll have a full season of team control left. This return likely won't be much different than what we were forecasting for Upton at this year's deadline, though --  -- and could just as well be smaller. It depends on how desperate other teams get for an outfielder.

Keep Him and Trade Him at the Deadline: If the Rays want to make a push for contention in 2012, they would have a better team if they kept Upton and started the year with him. They could still deal Upton at the deadline if they fall out of the race, but then they'll be getting a smaller return for Upton. And if the Rays stay in contention all season and don't trade Upton as a result, there's a decent chance that the Rays could get no compensation for him when he becomes a free agent.

Sign Upton to an Extension: The most convincing argument I've seen in favor of this option is Kevin's post from this morning on the weaknesses in the Rays' minor leagues. Up to this point, the Rays have been able to trade away players as soon as they become expensive and not miss a beat. Their minor league system was churning out prospect after prospect, so there have been a multitude of players ready to fill in whenever someone was traded.

But after Brandon Guyer gets promoted, the Rays will have no more exciting position prospects left in the high minors. It's going to be a number of years before Josh Sale and company reach the majors, meaning any holes the Rays develop in the outfield they would need to fill some other way. Keeping Upton would allow the Rays to play Jennings in left field and Guyer in right field, keeping Ben Zobrist at second base and putting Matt Joyce at 1B/DH and switching out with Guyer.

Without Upton, the Rays would need to rely on Guyer and Joyce as an everyday guys (which I think they can be), and they'd still have a hole at 1B/DH. So keeping Upton would make the Rays a stronger and deeper team, but how much would he cost? He's likely to get around $7 million this year in arbitration (guess/estimate, but it seems reasonable), so someone yesterday suggest something like a three year deal at $7/9/10.5. 

Would Upton go for something like that? It's tough to say; it really would depend on how much he wanted to stick around in Tampa Bay versus hitting the free agency market. He'd make more money by hitting the market, but he'd get to stick around in TB for a few more seasons this way while having some security. 

The Rays are going to start having some hard choices to make. Over the last few seasons, many of the moves were pretty obvious -- the Garza and Bartlett trades were both forshadowed and anticipated considerably, for example. But the Rays have a wide range of ways they can move going forward. Do they trade Shields, or do they shop Niemann/Davis instead? Do they invest in Upton, even if that means they can't invest in other players for as long? Do they make a big push to win in 2012, and if so, do they push Matt Moore toward the majors faster?

But anyway, I'm getting way ahead of myself -- it's still the regular season and we've still got lots of baseball to enjoy before having to ponder this sort of stuff more in depth.

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Resign Him?????

That would be INSANE! He has declined every year as a ballplayer since 2007. Unless he changes that ridiculously long sweeping swing of his,he NEVER will consistently hit for average. TRADE HIM THIS WINTER! At this rate,he will not even be a type A free agent at the end of 2012.

by MarkFidrych on Aug 2, 2011 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Justin's Swing vs B.J.s

B.J. should look at his brother’s swing closely.It’s short and quick to the ball.

by MarkFidrych on Aug 2, 2011 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

Won't happen. Too cheap.

Sign lady must die.
#rootingforstusbottomline

by EminenceFront on Aug 2, 2011 12:05 PM EDT reply actions  

what i think you're saying and hope to God it's not true

this ownership is going to run on a skeletal budget forcing the community to shit or get off the pot ojn the stadium issue

follow me on twitter @sternfan10

by sternfan1 on Aug 2, 2011 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yep.

Sign lady must die.
#rootingforstusbottomline

by EminenceFront on Aug 2, 2011 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't see how this advances their long-term goal.

They can’t just spend $70 million, refuse to even approach that amount again, and cry poor without pissing off the very people that they’re seeking to win over.

Also, I strongly believe that these people have huge egos and want to win irrespective of where they play.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 2, 2011 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agree with last part.

Who would want to not try to win, especially when they do they can talk mad smack with anyone.

I do this for free

by SRQman on Aug 2, 2011 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

I didn't say they are doing it.

But given their background with Goldman Sachs, and how Wall St. operates, nothing would surprise me.

Sign lady must die.
#rootingforstusbottomline

by EminenceFront on Aug 2, 2011 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

The difference is that was 100% a business.

This team, OTOH, is largely a hobby through which they pursue their passions, with some level of fiscal restraint and an eye toward eventually selling out of an asset that has increased in value.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 2, 2011 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Fair.

Sign lady must die.
#rootingforstusbottomline

by EminenceFront on Aug 2, 2011 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

I've given this BJ Upton situation a lot of thought

Mu conclusion is he’s more valuable to the Rays than what he’d return

I try this off seson to sign him to a 5/$45-50mil extension with the last year $10-12 being a club option

We really don’t have enough high level talent in the system as Kevin points out, so it makes sense

follow me on twitter @sternfan10

by sternfan1 on Aug 2, 2011 12:05 PM EDT reply actions  

You do so well when you're not just pushing buttons.

Completely agree with this kind of deal. If he’s still going to peak around his prime, this will capture it.

by Lurch's Lobbyists on Aug 2, 2011 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

The more I think about it, the more I'd be on board with this sort of deal.

Like you said, the lack of talent coming up through the minors is what really makes me want to do it. Trying to purchase similar talent on the FA market won’t come cheap.

That said, both the Rays and Upton need to be on board for something like this to happen. It really comes down to how much Upton is looking for, since he doesn’t have much incentive right now to sign a very team-friendly deal and ignore free agency.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Aug 2, 2011 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is pure and utter speculation,

But I wonder it this line of thought is why the Rays pulled him off the market so quickly and so definitively. Receiving underwhelming offers is one thing, but to pull him off to such an extent seemed rather extreme.

I still think odds are Upton is traded this offseason or signed to an extension. If he won’t reach a deal, I don’t see the Rays opening the year with him.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Aug 2, 2011 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

The Rays could be looking at a larger potential market in August as opposed to

only contenders right now. The Nationals may be interested in him, but they’ll be even more interested in him during the off season.

RaysRev.com or m_weber on twitter

by Rays_Rev on Aug 2, 2011 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

In August? You're dumb as shit

@SandyKazmir

Sometimes you eat the bear...

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 2, 2011 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

I meant during the off season

oh well..

RaysRev.com or m_weber on twitter

by Rays_Rev on Aug 2, 2011 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

.

You told me something wrong
I know I listen too long
But then one thing leads to another

If you want to keep guns out of the hands of thugs, just attach job applications to them

by DeadeyeRR on Aug 2, 2011 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm not so sure that the FO is willing to wait any longer for BJ to put it all together.

They way they roll they could find some inexpensive platoon system to make LF productive(DJ being the CF’er they want) or make a find(acquire) for a full time LF’er.

by budman3 on Aug 2, 2011 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

I won't speculate on the FO's opinions of Beej.

Most likely it would mean Guyer and Joyce playing full-time (maybe Fuld platooning with one or the other), but to me it’s 3.5-4 wins we’ve got to replace if we’ve lost Beej.

@ptSuttery

by Suttree on Aug 2, 2011 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree, that how they view Guyer/Joyce or anyone else in LF plays in as part of the overall FO determinations.

But so is cost to replacement and how much Upton salary would be.
However, it’s not just about replacing Uptons’s wins…IF DJ can replace 2-3 wins out of CF, the Rays only need 1-2 to make an overall gain. And they may feel they can do that (or better)without resigning him. Less money for BJ means more money available to make upgrades elsewhere as well.

FO has to look at the big picture(all areas of needed improvement) in their thinking.

by budman3 on Aug 2, 2011 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Could be if there is enough money and smart decisions made in all the other areas where the Rays can upgrade.

And I think there were possibilities this past deadline and the FO will be making every effort to find those improvements over the winter.

I seriously hope.

by budman3 on Aug 2, 2011 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Let's say our salary cap is 55m.

If we let Damon and Shoppah walk, our payroll is down to 33-34 million. We have plenty of money to play with while still keeping Upton.

@ptSuttery

by Suttree on Aug 2, 2011 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm not sure if the FO is looking at Upton's 7 million dollars for next season(in arby) is the concern.

It may be more the 8-10 per over the next 4(with an extension) that is troublesome to them. If they see that as a problem, the time to move him will be this winter, if getting maximum value for him is paramount.

And long term has only come into play with players this FO projects as being young enough and talented enough moving forward…and those extensions came pretty early in their careers(Longo, Price, Davis. Crawford(24), Kazmir(24). Upton is now 27.

by budman3 on Aug 2, 2011 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

I honestly believe that it's a compounded problem

Beej doesn’t want to resign because he knows half (99%?) of the fan base hates him, and the fan base hates him because he won’t resign. I wonder how much money really has to do with it

by BJ the Bossman on Aug 2, 2011 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

20 million dollars is a pretty big difference.

B.J isn’t a rays fan, why would he want to give them a discount?

by internet commenter on Aug 2, 2011 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Because in his mind he will be worth more in 3-4 years than he is right now?

Same thing Crawford did. Signed an agreeable extension that led to the highest contract ever signed by an outfielder.

@SandyKazmir

Sometimes you eat the bear...

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 2, 2011 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

There is very little way that I think the FO values Upton at a 8-10 million dollar player.

Bpt when they will have to decide what to pay Longoria who will be making 4.5 and 6 million over the next two seasons(and than his option years kick in and may have to be renegotiated). Price’s contarct will also have to be factored in.

by budman3 on Aug 2, 2011 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

Why would his option years have to be renegotiated?

Was he drunk when he signed the contract? Is that even a valid breach of contract?

@SandyKazmir

Sometimes you eat the bear...

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 2, 2011 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Come 2014, Longoria and the market may determine that he is seriously underpaid (at 7.5 million dollars).

And though 2015 and 2016 are 11+ million dollar team options)and appear nice now, it’s hard to say what Longoria’s market value might be then as well.

by budman3 on Aug 2, 2011 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

He has to honor the contract but the Rays may understand his future value and want to extend him out.

Longoria has the same contract as Ryan Braun had. They just extended him with a new contract that doesn’t kick in until his old one runs out in 2015. To another 6 year deal worth 91 million that runs through 2020(with an added option year).

That may be out of the Rays wallet and vision right now but it is something they might have to consider, especially if the next 3 years for Longoria becomes an issue in looking at the entire teams salary structure.

by budman3 on Aug 2, 2011 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes, the Rays are going to agree to pay a player more than they agreed to

Start holding your breath on that one

@SandyKazmir

Sometimes you eat the bear...

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 2, 2011 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

FO's may be all business but consider this..

In 2014 the Rays will be paying Shields 9 million, Maybe Upton 9 million(by some here’s estimation on an extension), Price, who may get 9 million on his new contract by then, Zobrist will be making 7 million and Davis will be owed 5 million.

Don’t you think the Rays FO will decide by then that maybe they need to tear up Longo’s deal, making 7.5 million? What if he wins an MVP award by then?

by budman3 on Aug 2, 2011 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

That gives them even more ammunition to leave it as is

They’re not going to restructure if it means they pay out more than the initial deal called for. If Longo is going to be a crybaby about it they’ll trade him for the moon and someone else can restructure, but it won’t happen on this FO’s watch.

@SandyKazmir

Sometimes you eat the bear...

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 2, 2011 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Why would any of this urge the Rays to void his current contract

It only makes him more valuable. He can bitch all he wants and if we ever did trade him we would get someone’s entire farm system. I have no idea why a player outperforming his contract would push a FO to pay him more. That’s like Burrell telling Friedman to renegotiate the deal because he sucked

by BJ the Bossman on Aug 2, 2011 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

And I wonder how much frustration over his performance compounds all sides

If 20 year old Beej knew he was performing like this over the last 3-4 years he would be disgusted with himself

@SandyKazmir

Sometimes you eat the bear...

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 2, 2011 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

At a time where they had no equal replacement at 1st base

both in terms of massive power(at the position and from the entire team), defense and when they made a conscious effort to increase the payroll to much higher levels( I believe it was close to a 70% increase from the year before)

by budman3 on Aug 2, 2011 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

If you think Jennings replaces Beej then who replaces Jennings?

I’m not sold on Guyer and you end up just shifting your holes.

@SandyKazmir

Sometimes you eat the bear...

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 2, 2011 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm with you big guy

7/8.5/10.5/13/13 with the last two as option years

@SandyKazmir

Sometimes you eat the bear...

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 2, 2011 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Mahtook is probably the next OF prospect up after Guyer

And he hasn’t signed yet, so that should tell you all you need to know

Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com

by Imperialism32 on Aug 2, 2011 12:17 PM EDT reply actions  

Hell yeah

We need to lock up that 9 hitter !

by Dome Biscuit on Aug 2, 2011 12:19 PM EDT reply actions  

I just moved to the area

But in anticipation of making the Rays my American League team I have followed pretty strictly and am a HUGE MLB fan. So here’s my 2 cents…

I would hate to see yet another “Big Name” leave the Rays, but it doesn’t go much further than that. He is a potential 5 tool player, but how long can you say that until he proves it wrong. In order to steal bases, you need to get on base. Currently B.J. has an OBP of .306 which is worse than: Longoria, Joyce, Kotchman, Zobrist, Damon, and Rodriguez. His AVG. is at .224, .171 at home. That’s brutal. If other teams want him, the Rays can use a boost to their minor league system and SHOULD let another team overpay for him. If he has that potential he is not going to reach it at the Trop in front of 7,000 fans… he is going to need a boost somewhere else.

Again, I like his potential, but that word is starting to lose its meaning in terms of B.J. Upton. You hit upon the fact that the Rays have maxed out their system, well its time to beef it up, and it begins with getting rid of Upton.

See you at the game tonight!

GO BULLS AND BLACKHAWKS!

by SouthsideCUBSfan on Aug 2, 2011 12:34 PM EDT reply actions  

Intelligent new poster?

get out

Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com

by Imperialism32 on Aug 2, 2011 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is where I stopped reading and caring about your opinion.
he is not going to reach it at the Trop in front of 7,000 fans

Sign lady must die.
#rootingforstusbottomline

by EminenceFront on Aug 2, 2011 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yup, ignore all his other decent points

Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com

by Imperialism32 on Aug 2, 2011 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah like batting average!

Sign lady must die.
#rootingforstusbottomline

by EminenceFront on Aug 2, 2011 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Homeruns.

Sign lady must die.
#rootingforstusbottomline

by EminenceFront on Aug 2, 2011 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

This.

His power is not something to dismiss.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 2, 2011 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's a little misleading.

He is hitting more home runs, but overall, his power has been down from last year

ISO
2009: .132
2010: .187
2011: .170

XBH/H
2009: 36 percent
2010: 47 percent
2011: 36 percent

by R.J. Anderson on Aug 2, 2011 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Was going to say this.

Sign lady must die.
#rootingforstusbottomline

by EminenceFront on Aug 2, 2011 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's fine.

Your point is well-taken, but just a look at any of his home run swings this year gives a glimpse into the full extent of his ability.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 2, 2011 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's like October 2008 all over again.

Sign lady must die.
#rootingforstusbottomline

by EminenceFront on Aug 2, 2011 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Can't you say the same thing about Kotchman, Shoppach, and just about any other player?

When they get one, it goes really far, but that doesn’t mean they’re going to ever become good hitters over isolated displays of brilliance.

by R.J. Anderson on Aug 2, 2011 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

So how does he make more contact?

Tinkering with his swing mechanics might not be something the Rays or Upton will do because he is a successful hitter still at this point.

by R.J. Anderson on Aug 2, 2011 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Get that eye juice out.

Sign lady must die.
#rootingforstusbottomline

by EminenceFront on Aug 2, 2011 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's pretty common for vision to deteriorate over your lifetime

He’s clearly having trouble with pitch recognition. What would it hurt to see if that’s an issue. The upside is a guy that hits everything hard actually hitting more pitches

@SandyKazmir

Sometimes you eat the bear...

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 2, 2011 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Possibly going to a heavier bat

it might help keep him keep his hands in more.

by Blue or CONKZILLA on Aug 3, 2011 1:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

Mmm, I'm not sure you necessarily can in the way I mean.

His swing appears so effortless and he drives the ball really far given his frame, and he does it often enough that I think there’s a decent observational case to be made for asserting his power.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 2, 2011 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'd agree with that.

I guess my questions are:

1) How likely do you think it is he can unlock that
2) At what point do you just accept it won’t happen

by R.J. Anderson on Aug 2, 2011 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think No. 2 comes into play in two or three years.

Not sure about No. 1, but I think the value he will almost certainly bring combined with the value that he could bring if things work out makes keeping him around for those two or three years worth it.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 2, 2011 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's an interesting situation

We aren’t talking about an Ian Desmond case here, where the guy is on the wrong side of 25 with no production and all tools. Upton is definitely a good player, I just don’t know if we’re at the point where we can still hope something clicks and he becomes the angular angel of offensive excellent we all thought he might become a few years ago.

by R.J. Anderson on Aug 2, 2011 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

you can't rail on BA as long as it is a sum rather than the whole

if BJ has a 300 BA—i’m suessing all his numbers look better

follow me on twitter @sternfan10

by sternfan1 on Aug 2, 2011 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

I didn't say that.

But referring to home/road BA splits is like trying to read a novel from the first three pages.

Sign lady must die.
#rootingforstusbottomline

by EminenceFront on Aug 2, 2011 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

You have to win at home and play well at home

To draw a crowd, and to also WIN the hardest division in baseball.

GO BULLS AND BLACKHAWKS!

by SouthsideCUBSfan on Aug 2, 2011 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Okay?

Sign lady must die.
#rootingforstusbottomline

by EminenceFront on Aug 2, 2011 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Just curious

where does the largest part of OBP come from?

by Blue or CONKZILLA on Aug 3, 2011 2:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

Sorry, Ill get used to it

I honestly like the Rays, so dont take it personal. But players like B.J., who need to find new life, are not going to make that extra push and be rejuvenated by playing on an organization whose fans dont come out and support them. This is not an insult to anyone here who loves their team and supports them, but its true…

GO BULLS AND BLACKHAWKS!

by SouthsideCUBSfan on Aug 2, 2011 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Aaaand now I disagree

Was hoping the attendance thing was a throwaway comment

Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com

by Imperialism32 on Aug 2, 2011 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'll take that apology now.

Sign lady must die.
#rootingforstusbottomline

by EminenceFront on Aug 2, 2011 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

lol

Sign lady must die.
#rootingforstusbottomline

by EminenceFront on Aug 2, 2011 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wll Hendry be fired?

follow me on twitter @sternfan10

by sternfan1 on Aug 2, 2011 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

He should be

But will he? Probably not, but hes terrible.

GO BULLS AND BLACKHAWKS!

by SouthsideCUBSfan on Aug 2, 2011 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

What does that say about the Cubs roster

who play in front of sold crowds almost every home game?

by Blue or CONKZILLA on Aug 3, 2011 2:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

Why the fuck do we get all the cubs fans?

Is it some sort of balance to watch a real team for once while their FO is shitting all over the place?

@dobbertweets

by blackraven on Aug 2, 2011 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is a dumb comment

Again, I dont mean this as an insult, I really dont. You are in FLORIDA. There are transplants from all over the country, and the fact is, most of the people that move here have a team. If you didnt have fans from other places, you wouldnt have a team… its that simple.

GO BULLS AND BLACKHAWKS!

by SouthsideCUBSfan on Aug 2, 2011 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Im not taking a shot at you at all man

But dont be blinded by reality.. this organization is trying to grow… and I hope it does man. Im glad your pissed at me, that means your a passionate Rays fan, and they deserve that.

GO BULLS AND BLACKHAWKS!

by SouthsideCUBSfan on Aug 2, 2011 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

We suck, but Im still a huge fan

Im not going to pretend they are a great team…

GO BULLS AND BLACKHAWKS!

by SouthsideCUBSfan on Aug 2, 2011 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

This sure works for the Cubs though, right?
You have to win at home and play well at home

To draw a crowd, and to also WIN the hardest division in baseball.

GO BULLS AND BLACKHAWKS!

by SouthsideCUBSfan on Aug 2, 2011 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions

Sign lady must die.
#rootingforstusbottomline

by EminenceFront on Aug 2, 2011 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

You patronizing fuck.

Sign lady must die.
#rootingforstusbottomline

by EminenceFront on Aug 2, 2011 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

Dont take a shot at me because Im a Cubs fan

You need fans from other places as a base to this organization, being in Florida. They are finally seeing growth amongst fans from the area, because they have been successful for a couple years, I hope it stays that way and they grow.

GO BULLS AND BLACKHAWKS!

by SouthsideCUBSfan on Aug 2, 2011 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Fans are not a variable to winning

@SandyKazmir

Sometimes you eat the bear...

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 2, 2011 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thats a fair point

But you can’t overpay a guy and take that chance when youaren’t pulling in money from a guaranteed high attendance…that’s really all I’m saying. Cubs are a perfect example of what we are both trying to say…they can take the chance and overpay players and hope for a good result because they have a guaranteed intake of money with attendance and tv viewership…but, its not a guarantee to work, as the cubs have proven time and time again…it takes good management too, and well, they don’t have that

GO BULLS AND BLACKHAWKS!

by SouthsideCUBSfan on Aug 2, 2011 1:10 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

How is it an overpay? He's already been worth $6.8M with two months to go this year.

Our highest paid player makes $5M while Carlos Pena makes $10M and is the fifth highest paid Cub. You can’t apply the mindset that you’ve accrued as a Cub fan to the Rays. In short, read more, post less.

@SandyKazmir

Sometimes you eat the bear...

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 2, 2011 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

IF

They were to sign him for an extension..I believe it will be overpaying when they can’t afford that to backfire on them.

GO BULLS AND BLACKHAWKS!

by SouthsideCUBSfan on Aug 2, 2011 1:19 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Therefore

You shouldn’t waste the money on B.J. Because they cant afford to eat that costif it doesn’t pan out

GO BULLS AND BLACKHAWKS!

by SouthsideCUBSfan on Aug 2, 2011 1:12 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

The same could be said about any sizeable investment the team makes.

You just have to weigh whether the probability of a failure is low enough, and the upside high enough, to justify a deal.

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 2, 2011 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

What pan out? At a minimum he's worth 2.5 WAR. That's $9M

If you overpay in the end it’s because you’ve gained a surplus in the beginning.

@SandyKazmir

Sometimes you eat the bear...

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 2, 2011 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

This

@SandyKazmir

Sometimes you eat the bear...

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 2, 2011 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

I really like BJ, and I'd love to see him stick around. I think he can really help this team.

But I’m sure the organization has been trying to get him to sign a long term deal for some time now to no avail. I don’t think the 7/9/10.5 is going to get it done. Our strength has always been pitching. Let’s use that money to extend Helly, Price, or Moore instead.

by mattc286 on Aug 2, 2011 12:47 PM EDT reply actions  

I'm not sure the cheap argument works here. They could have saved money for the rest of this year by trading away BJ at the deadline

Note: This isn’t aimed at the article so much as the nature of several comments.

Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla

by FreeZorilla on Aug 2, 2011 12:59 PM EDT reply actions  

If his arb price is 7m, that's really not that bad.

That’s just a little higher than what they’re paying Damon right now, a player who’s only going to be worth.. what, 1.5 wins?

@ptSuttery

by Suttree on Aug 2, 2011 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Which win factor are you sticking with Sutt?

Previously above, you pegged Upton for 3.5 wins and here you say he’s 1.5

by budman3 on Aug 2, 2011 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Really?

B-Ref has 2.1 and 1.7 for Upton and Damon, respectively.

Fuck PlayOnWords!

Boom. Outta Here.

@RyanGilliss

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by Ryan Gilliss on Aug 2, 2011 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

I see that....

B-Ref has fairly different figures.

Fuck PlayOnWords!

Boom. Outta Here.

@RyanGilliss

Also follow my Wolfpack:

@RealNolenBailey

@wtb_tampa

@ptsuttery

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@Josh_Frank

by Ryan Gilliss on Aug 2, 2011 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's a pretty significant difference..close to 1.0

and would confuse a lot of folks here when debating posts, no?

by budman3 on Aug 2, 2011 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeah...

but it was pretty clear that Sutty was talking about Damon

Fuck PlayOnWords!

Boom. Outta Here.

@RyanGilliss

Also follow my Wolfpack:

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by Ryan Gilliss on Aug 2, 2011 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ok but Sutt used BJ at 3.5-4.0 higher up in this post

Most likely it would mean Guyer and Joyce playing full-time (maybe Fuld platooning with one or the other), but to me it’s 3.5-4 wins we’ve got to replace if we’ve lost Beej.

@ptSuttery

by budman3 on Aug 2, 2011 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I can see that...if you average out his career

But he’s been very up and very down his entire career and the last three if you take the average of B-Ref he’s at 2.6. At Fangraphs he’s at 2.9. And this year is shaping up to be his worst(when healthy).

That’s my question with him moving forward. What are you going to get and what is he worth?

by budman3 on Aug 2, 2011 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nah, that's what the Nats wanted to give the Twins for Span

Who has a similar WAR as Upton(about a 3 win WAR, average wise). I could see where the Twins balked.
I’d have preferred Norris/Ramos and Lombardozzi for Upton. Which the Nats would have probably balked at as well.

by budman3 on Aug 2, 2011 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

BTW. that would make a good discussion

Would you rather have Upton or Span right now? About the same age, same WAR, Upton has more power, Span is a prototypical lead-off guy.
Span will make 3, 4.75, 6.5 and a 9 million dollar option the next 4 years. Upton…?

by budman3 on Aug 2, 2011 5:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Upton

Upton may eventually start to hit, Span is very unlikely to start putting up strong power numbers…also prefer B.J. defense because of his arm, more likely to hold runners.

by Blue or CONKZILLA on Aug 3, 2011 3:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

Sorry if you all took me personally

Not my intention at all….I came to this town to help market your team…

GO BULLS AND BLACKHAWKS!

by SouthsideCUBSfan on Aug 2, 2011 1:23 PM EDT via mobile reply actions  

Thanks in advance

@SandyKazmir

Sometimes you eat the bear...

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 2, 2011 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Haha

I have a personal account only on SBnation

GO BULLS AND BLACKHAWKS!

by SouthsideCUBSfan on Aug 2, 2011 1:26 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Haha

I have a personal account only on SBnation

GO BULLS AND BLACKHAWKS!

by SouthsideCUBSfan on Aug 2, 2011 1:26 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Haha

I have a personal account only on SBnation

@SandyKazmir

Sometimes you eat the bear...

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 2, 2011 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

Haha

I have a personal account only on SBnation

by mattc286 on Aug 2, 2011 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

I have no idea why it repeated my post

First time on SB nation in a while…will update my account

GO BULLS AND BLACKHAWKS!

by SouthsideCUBSfan on Aug 2, 2011 1:30 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

I have no idea why it repeated my post

First time on SB nation in a while…will update my account

Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com

by Imperialism32 on Aug 2, 2011 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

I have no idea why it repeated my post

First time on SB nation in a while…will update my account

If you want to keep guns out of the hands of thugs, just attach job applications to them

by DeadeyeRR on Aug 2, 2011 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

I have no idea why it repeated my post

First time on SB nation in a while…will update my account

If you want to keep guns out of the hands of thugs, just attach job applications to them

by DeadeyeRR on Aug 2, 2011 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

I have no idea why it repeated my post

First time on SB nation in a while…will update my account

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 2, 2011 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

I have no idea why it repeated my post

First time on SB nation in a while…will update my account

@ptSuttery

by Suttree on Aug 2, 2011 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Haha

I have a personal account only on SBnation

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Aug 2, 2011 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Haha

I have a personal account only on SBnation

If you want to keep guns out of the hands of thugs, just attach job applications to them

by DeadeyeRR on Aug 2, 2011 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Haha

I give in to peer pressure only on SBNation

Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com

by Imperialism32 on Aug 2, 2011 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

B'J' thought he could follow the same career path

that Carl Crawford did. Play for the Rays until free agent and then cash in somewhere else. I don’t think the current market ,combined with his tallent level is going to let him do this. He will not be allowed to go to the greener grass to the extent that Carl did. His agent is now exploring other options for him , and staying with the Rays is now included.

by Landlord on Aug 2, 2011 1:26 PM EDT reply actions  

or lead off

If you want to keep guns out of the hands of thugs, just attach job applications to them

by DeadeyeRR on Aug 2, 2011 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Or give an decent interview without cliches

If you want to keep guns out of the hands of thugs, just attach job applications to them

by DeadeyeRR on Aug 2, 2011 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

6,942.0

If you want to keep guns out of the hands of thugs, just attach job applications to them

by DeadeyeRR on Aug 2, 2011 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

You joke about this

But where do you think money comes from? Baseball doesn’t work like the Fed you can’t create money out of thin air. If the Tampa fan base showed up…they can afford to compete for the Crawfordsof the world when they reach their prime…otherwise turn out like the Expos.

GO BULLS AND BLACKHAWKS!

by SouthsideCUBSfan on Aug 2, 2011 3:45 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions   1 recs

Come on, man.

First of all, my sardonic remark was regarding his play while he was here and the comments he made when he left. Second of all, even if we COULD have afforded to give Crawford 7/$142M, it would still be a bad deal and I would not have wanted it. Let Boston and New York dole out those conspicuous consumption contracts that cannot possibly return the value in wins, much less marginal wins for teams that are already winning around 90 games a season without him. And where do I think money comes from in baseball? Revenue sharing, merchandise, broadcasting, and turnstiles. Turnstiles aren’t close to the whole picture. All this typing, and I still managed to avoid your retarded troll-bait about the federal reserve.

by mattc286 on Aug 2, 2011 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Its not trolling

Just cause you disagree….

GO BULLS AND BLACKHAWKS!

by SouthsideCUBSfan on Aug 2, 2011 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

As a matter of fact i have spent a good amount of time on BCB

And it was the first time I was considered trolling you weak minded fuck… I came on here for a legit convo, not to talk shit.

GO BULLS AND BLACKHAWKS!

by SouthsideCUBSfan on Aug 2, 2011 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

I came on here

Simply to say after this year I dont think the rays should sign Upton…they dont have the funds to take a chance…one reason being their crowd…and people took that personal when I didn’t mean it personally.that’s my line of business..to put people in the seats….again sorry if you consider that trolling. Go search my first couple post on here today.you can disagree but no need to go off…

On the way to the game right now…to cheer on YOUR team and to watch some baseball…does that hurt your feelings too?

GO BULLS AND BLACKHAWKS!

by SouthsideCUBSfan on Aug 2, 2011 5:53 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Yea

Crawford and B.J are on different planets

GO BULLS AND BLACKHAWKS!

by SouthsideCUBSfan on Aug 2, 2011 1:41 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Rays always use option years to extend a player

So how about 3 years/33 mil guaranteed for Upton with 3 option years, 12 mil, 14 mil and 16 mil. I am sure he get’s traded by that 14 mil year. It’s not exactly 142 players and even if he has been frustrating, somebody has to be Mr. Ray already and I don’t see that in Longo or Price. Maybe Shields.

Under construction

by joeybw on Aug 2, 2011 1:47 PM EDT reply actions  

Too rich.

That might be what it takes to extend him, and if so, that’s money better spent elsewhere. Also, Longo is Mr. Ray (King).

by mattc286 on Aug 2, 2011 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'd like to see

7/9/10.5(team option)/12(team option).

by Blue or CONKZILLA on Aug 3, 2011 3:24 AM EDT reply actions  

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