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Rinse and Repeat: Price Pitches Well, Rays Offense Doesn't Help

ST. PETERSBURG, FL - JULY 20:  Pitcher David Price #14 of the Tampa Bay Rays starts against the New York Yankees July 20, 2011 at Tropicana Field in St. Petersburg, Florida. The Rays won 3 - 2. (Photo by Al Messerschmidt/Getty Images)

This formula is getting old really fast: (Rays starter) pitches well, but the offense is unable to help. Sigh.

To say David Price pitched well last night might seem a bit weird -- he did allow three runs in 6.2 innings -- but for the most part, that's exactly what he did. He held the game close and only allowed a handful of runs on the night, and he no-hit the Blue Jays for the first 3+ innings of the game. His problem seemed to be that he was too reliant on his fastball; he threw his four- and two-seam fastballs 87% of the time last night, only mixing in 14 breaking balls in total.

While Price was able to get the Blue Jays to whiff and induce weak on his fastball, it was easy for the Blue Jays hitters to sit fastball and square up on occasion. That's exactly what Jose Bautista and Yunel Escobar did on their homeruns, and I wouldn't be surprised if that's why Rajai Davis was able to hit the double that scored the Blue Jays' third run. Price may have an overpowering fastball, but if it's all he's throwing and the batters are able to time it, it becomes an easier pitch to hit.

As for the Rays' offense, there's really not much to say. They didn't get their first hit of the game until Desmond Jennings hit a lead-off opposite-field homerun in the sixth inning, and they didn't get another hit until Casey Kotchman blopped a single into short left field in the ninth inning.

But the most painful part was watching the offense hand the Blue Jays the game in the second inning. The Rays had Ricky Romera on the ropes, as he'd loaded the bases with a walk, hit by pitch, and another walk. There were no outs, but the Rays still managed to get out of the inning without scoring a run. Matt Joyce and Kelly Shoppach struck out, and then Sean Rodriguez grounded out to end the threat. Talk about a facepalm inducing inning.

Game Notes:

  • As Staats and Anderson pointed out, the Rays have loaded the bases with no outs 7 times over the last month. You know how many times they have actually scored in these situations? Once.
  • In his last three times on the mound, David Price has only received two runs of run support. His record has now dropped to 9-10 as a result, showcasing how he's obviously a horrible pitcher.
  • It was good to see Juan Cruz get back into a game and strike out the two batters he faced. He had hit a groove by the time he got injured and was one of the Rays' better relievers, so here's hoping he can pick up where he left off.

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The Jays are another reason we need out of the ALE

They’re able to make trades and take on salary, have been given the green light on paying over slot for draft picks, and the owner has said he feels a $150mil payroll is fine

We’re looking at 4th place, at least until BAL figures out how to rebuild a franchise

follow me on twitter @sternfan10

by sternfan1 on Aug 3, 2011 8:09 AM EDT reply actions  

Slow, a poster in cleveland.com (not i) linked your story on Jimenez trade

in the Indians forum—i did comment on his post and the article

follow me on twitter @sternfan10

by sternfan1 on Aug 3, 2011 8:23 AM EDT reply actions  

Huh, that's cool.

Thanks for passing that along. I didn’t get into the Cleveland side of things really, but I do like the deal for them. The fact that they kept all their position prospects was impressive.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Aug 3, 2011 8:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

Pomeranz and Moore are not in the same class of talent

Moore is an ace, Pomeranz has 2 pitches

I'm not a fanboy, I'm a _______

by Jason Collette on Aug 3, 2011 8:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

Pom also in his 1st year of professional baseball and imo, at this point was ahead of David Price K/9 BB/9

also didn’t Price have to go back down and learn the CH?

follow me on twitter @sternfan10

by sternfan1 on Aug 3, 2011 8:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

How did we get from Moore to Price?

Price didn’t really learn his change since he still doesn’t throw it with any regularity. Comparing Pomeranz and Price is also foolish.They’re both collegiate pitchers so you can see where one was and where the other was when they were drafted. One was a clear top draft pick, one was not. Talk to most people and Pomeranz is a 3 with a potential 2.

I'm not a fanboy, I'm a _______

by Jason Collette on Aug 3, 2011 9:00 AM EDT up reply actions  

I don't make the deal. Also Pom as a snior was playing with an oblique strain and his velo was down to 90-91

he’s been at mid 90s all season, not even being challenged yet

Also White has a nasty sink/slide to go along with a mid 900s

All this and two others for a guy who made his living pitching v NLW teams

Look up his career year, i think you might agree, he feasted on the NLW and other weak line ups in the NL

follow me on twitter @sternfan10

by sternfan1 on Aug 3, 2011 9:04 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think it was a fantastic trade for the Rockies

Pomeranz and White will both be in their rotation but the Rockies just gave up their ace (for their situation) for a 3 and a 4/5

I'm not a fanboy, I'm a _______

by Jason Collette on Aug 3, 2011 9:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

+1

Except I think you are ultra conservative on how good Pom and White will be.

by mr. maniac on Aug 3, 2011 9:14 AM EDT up reply actions  

Really?

Neither have a third pitch of any quality right now and it’s tough to project a third pitch. Archer had the same high ceiling coming into this season and has done nothing to improve anything this season so I’m even more conservative in saying he should go to relief right now and give up the dream of being a starting pitcher.

Pomeranz and White have the skills to be a starter, but if either are fronting a rotation five years from now, color me shocked.

I'm not a fanboy, I'm a _______

by Jason Collette on Aug 3, 2011 9:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yup, agreed.

Even if you give him the benefit of the doubt, he’s still no sure thing to develop into a 4-5 WAR ace. Even Matt Moore isn’t. There may be some concerns floating around Jimenez, but he’s still more of a sure thing to be dominant than Pomeranz.

I guess another way to look at it: say David Price was signed to Ubaldo Jimenez’s contract and Matt Moore was in someone else’s system. Would you trade Price for Moore? Even as awesome as Moore is, no thanks…I’ll take the ace I already have over the uncertain one.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Aug 3, 2011 9:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

You must've missed my troll in yesterday's thread.

Over the next three years, who’s more expensive: Price or Shields? The point was simply that Price is going to start getting paid a lot soon.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Aug 3, 2011 9:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

I was drunk most of yesterday -- so yes, I did :)

I watched 2 innings over dinner and the rest on my iPhone while out playing cornhole.

I'm not a fanboy, I'm a _______

by Jason Collette on Aug 3, 2011 9:14 AM EDT up reply actions  

.

Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com

by Imperialism32 on Aug 3, 2011 9:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

mostly bourbon-based drinks yesterday

brothers and I killed a few bottles of bourbon yesterday

I'm not a fanboy, I'm a _______

by Jason Collette on Aug 3, 2011 9:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

He's already been worth so much more than he's been paid it's crazy that people whine and cry about arby

You’re getting a $25M pitcher of less than $10 just because it’s his nth season. That’s a fantastic deal.

@SandyKazmir

Sometimes you eat the bear...

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 3, 2011 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

I would trade Price for Moore and White.

Without much of a thought too. Are we not ready to trade Shields for Meseraco and Alonso?

by mr. maniac on Aug 3, 2011 9:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

Position prospects vs. pitching prospects. That's not necessarily apples for apples right there.

I could see how it’d be a good value and all, but I still wouldn’t like that trade. But that’s a personal preference.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Aug 3, 2011 9:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

What? No.

I said in the article I’d have been much happier with it if the Rockies had gotten a position prospect back. This trade just felt to me like trading an ace in the hand for two possible mid-rotation guys.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Aug 3, 2011 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

You, me, and most scouts honestly don't know what Pom or White will turn into, but the Rockies do know what Ubaldo's medicals say

I wouldn’t call him an ace just because he’s their number one pitcher and his fastball is going to lose some velocity coming off the mountain. Lastly, I’d give him less than a year before he’s on the shelf with injury. Rockies are a supremely well run franchise. This is what the Rays should have done with Kazmir following 08 as they still would have recouped something of value instead of virtually nothing. Obviously, Ubaldo can pitch great and stay healthy and be a real coup, but I wouldn’t count on both of those things and maybe not either one.

@SandyKazmir

Sometimes you eat the bear...

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 3, 2011 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

The thinner air alone adds at least 1 MPH, I'm referring more to 2007 being Kaz's best year, 2010 for Ubaldo

follow that up with a decent, but nowhere near as good following season. It’s not a perfect example because Ubaldo’s 2011 is still pretty decent just not quite as good as his 2010, but Kaz’s 08 wasn’t exactly him falling off the cliff yet either.

@SandyKazmir

Sometimes you eat the bear...

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 3, 2011 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

You seem to be forgetting that he's signed to an incredible contract.

I understand the injury concerns, and that’s the only thing that would make this make sense to me. If the Rockies think he’s a time bomb, then sure, they might as well sell high now.

But at $5m a year for the next couple, he’s an incredible bargain even if he ends up being just a 3 WAR pitcher.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Aug 3, 2011 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yes, but if injuries are truly your concern then you're looking at a potential 0 WAR player signed to a fabulous contract

Would you rather the Rays had traded Kaz going into 2009 or when they did after the waiver deadline?

@SandyKazmir

Sometimes you eat the bear...

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 3, 2011 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

Kaz =/= Jimenez.

The situations are rather different. If you think he’s that liable to blow up, then certainly this makes sense. I just don’t think he’s nearly at that level.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Aug 3, 2011 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

And even then...position prospects.

Getting one in the deal would have gone a long way toward changing my mind about it.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Aug 3, 2011 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

Why does a posistional prospect matter?

Twelve years of control on two great pitching prospects is very good. You are severely underrating Pom and White.

by mr. maniac on Aug 3, 2011 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think this is a huge part of it. I'm not very high on Ubaldo so perhaps I'm just as biased, but I think this was a very fair trade for both teams.

It sucks to give up Pom, but White isn’t a bad catch either if he’s healthy. Not sure who the other two guys are, but I’ll piggyback Steve’s opinion that they’re fodder

@SandyKazmir

Sometimes you eat the bear...

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 3, 2011 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Because they have a higher success rate, and the Rockies have plenty of position holes to fill too.

I probably am underrating Pom and White, but I understand that they’re both top pitching prospects…that’s cool and all. But even then, the odds that both them become successful contributors in the majors aren’t great. (Note: this is something you can say about any two pitching prospects).

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Aug 3, 2011 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

But I would take Moore over Lee.

Not the best comparison for Meseraco and Moore, but still. I’ll take the higher prospect, regardless. I think you may be underestimating the importance of the difference between elite and great.

by mr. maniac on Aug 3, 2011 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

It was also on MLBTR.

Maddon's Mission
Make you want to kill him, then make you want to love him. Sly.

by Jonah Keri on Jun 19, 2010 10:31 PM EDT

by Doug09 on Aug 3, 2011 8:49 AM EDT up reply actions  

Didn't notice that...thanks.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Aug 3, 2011 9:05 AM EDT up reply actions  

But... the MLBTR commenters liked it, so I don't think that bodes well...

Maddon's Mission
Make you want to kill him, then make you want to love him. Sly.

by Jonah Keri on Jun 19, 2010 10:31 PM EDT

by Doug09 on Aug 3, 2011 9:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

Welp.

I may need to have my head examined.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Aug 3, 2011 9:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

How does Shelton avoid scrutiny

I know there will be those who want to debate what a hitting coaches job is, and that he can’t go up there and hit for the team, etc. etc. At this point I’m not interested in those debates. Did anyone see Matt’s checked swing first pitch on his second at bat ? Seriously ? Still doing that at this point in the season ? Clearly no plate strategy at all. And it’s not just bases loaded with no or 1 out where such, it’s anytime we get a runner to third with 0 or 1 out. No one, including veterans like Damon seems to have a clue how to drive in runs. Please show me one player who has significantly benefited from Shelton’s influence ? Even if I give you Kotchman you still have a lot of negatives to offset that. Price has how many losses where the Rays score 2 or less ? There is no logic in the world any of you can give me that will convince me that our hitting coach doesn’t and shouldn’t wear some of this. Yet I don’t hear his name in the local media, the national media, on discussion threads. What is going on here ? Why is he protected from any scrutiny ? But if he holds one meeting, and the team hits that night, its all over the papers like he is a big hero. This guy is good. This guy is real good. He’s wasting his talents in baseball and should be in Washington. I’m still looking for the commercials for his new hitting school: The Derek Shelton School of Hitting, where we make it as easy as 1-2-3.

by whodatrays on Aug 3, 2011 8:55 AM EDT reply actions  

I understand this point

I don’t think it’s worth blaming Shelton but I think it’s pretty clear he’s not helping. Which seems to be the same conclusion the Indians came to.

Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com

by Imperialism32 on Aug 3, 2011 9:01 AM EDT up reply actions  

I mean, still try to acquire better hitters obviously

The hitting coach isn’t a magic bullet but what do you really risk losing if you fire him?

Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com

by Imperialism32 on Aug 3, 2011 9:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

It is something to visit in the off-season and it wouldn't surprise me if it happened

I get why it didn’t happen in between seasons as it would have led to their 4th hitting coach in 4 seasons.

I'm not a fanboy, I'm a _______

by Jason Collette on Aug 3, 2011 9:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

When you start doing a worse job since being under your boss who is in charge of helping you improve

Then I would say it’s your Boss’s fault.

Even if the argument is that his affect is negligible, which I think it is. Then why not try something new because whatever he is doing isn’t working

by Sveet on Aug 3, 2011 9:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

Exactly

Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com

by Imperialism32 on Aug 3, 2011 9:14 AM EDT up reply actions  

So you're saying firing Shelton makes this line up the NYY?

Two kids take piano lessons from the same instructor, one becomes a prodigy the other turns to an air guitar—instructor blame or praise?

follow me on twitter @sternfan10

by sternfan1 on Aug 3, 2011 9:00 AM EDT up reply actions  

How many World Air Guitar Championships did he win?

Maddon's Mission
Make you want to kill him, then make you want to love him. Sly.

by Jonah Keri on Jun 19, 2010 10:31 PM EDT

by Doug09 on Aug 3, 2011 9:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

I asked how Shelton avoids scrutiny

Not sure what logic you used to make that leap. Simply saying we’re not hitting and our hitting coach is not helping and no one seems to want to give him some scrutiny.

by whodatrays on Aug 3, 2011 9:19 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think he's getting scrutinized.

I wouldn’t be surprised to see a change. Nor would I disagree with it.

Twitter: @mbleazy

by MikeB. on Aug 3, 2011 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't disagree that someone is going to have to take the fall.

Since we are using analogies, it’s like when a division screws up in a company over and over, eventually, whether merited or not, the head of that division is going to be the one taking the fall.

I don’t claim to have the answers for why, AS A TEAM, we are hitting so horribly, but the numbers do speak for themselves. Something has to change somewhere. I don’t know if it is in preparation, execution, or we, simply, don’t have good scouting for the future ability of hitters.

Do you realize Betty White is a milf for me? Ouch

follow me on twitter @sternfan10

by sternfan1 on Sep 3, 2010 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs

by wtbudlight on Aug 3, 2011 9:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

This team has flat out quit--i'll say it

and normally when that happens it’s not the hitting coach who gets the ax

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by sternfan1 on Aug 3, 2011 9:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

My statement was in regards to hitting.

Hitting has been a season long problem. It’s just being magnified, in my opinion, right now because we are sliding further and further out of contention. When it is under the microscope like that, it is easy to dismiss it as “we’ve quit”.

I’m not saying we have or haven’t. But when we were struggling behind the plate in May, that wasn’t indicating we had quit.

Do you realize Betty White is a milf for me? Ouch

follow me on twitter @sternfan10

by sternfan1 on Sep 3, 2010 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs

by wtbudlight on Aug 3, 2011 9:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

It was a problem last year

We scored runs because we got timely hits which you could consider Sheltons doing or much more likely it was just that we got lucky last year.

by Sveet on Aug 3, 2011 9:19 AM EDT up reply actions  

And unlucky this year, perhaps.

Do you realize Betty White is a milf for me? Ouch

follow me on twitter @sternfan10

by sternfan1 on Sep 3, 2010 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs

by wtbudlight on Aug 3, 2011 9:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

On what do you base the statement..

“normally when that happens it’s not the hitting coach….” ? Do they keep stats for that sort of thing ?

by whodatrays on Aug 3, 2011 9:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

Without looking into the numbers in detail (because I am gainfully employed and don't have time today)....

I’d be interested in looking at some metrics that weigh the value of getting on base any way possible vs. getting hits to get on base.

Let me try to explain this. We all know that getting on base is one of the more valuable qualities of a player. But if the players are attempting to get on base through walking or taking pitches at a disproportionately high rate, eventually that is going to result in sacrificing the “best” way to get on base, and that is through putting the ball in play. If we are taking at a high level, one can expect pitchers to eat us up with close pitches to get ahead. If we are swinging away, one can expect pitchers to tease us outside of the zone. Everyone knows this, its basic. But at what point does shooting for a high OBP through “any means necessary” begin to have negative impacts.

Perhaps this could be looked at through year to year or month to month fluctuations in pitches taken early in the count vs. what’s thrown correlated with OBP and BA. I am just spewing right now, but I think it would be interesting to observe. Hell, the numbers could show we just can’t hit and aren’t attempting to walk a disproportionate amount of time. Not sure.

Do you realize Betty White is a milf for me? Ouch

follow me on twitter @sternfan10

by sternfan1 on Sep 3, 2010 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs

by wtbudlight on Aug 3, 2011 9:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

I would find this interesting

I think this is beyond stats at this point. I think the Rays needs to make a statement – if nothing else to the fans – that continued lack of offense is unacceptable. I don’t think the management get that making statements through actions sends a message to your market. Those actions don’t always have to be blockbuster trades. Sorry if it’s not all Shelton’s fault. But I think giving him the boot will say “We expect more from this team”. Right now all we have is Maddon’s low key media statements, which fire us up all the more. But what you’re suggesting looking into is exactly what I have come to believe is Shelton’s only strategy – be patient at the plate at all costs. I’m over stating it to make points, we do seem to be a one trick pony and I’d be interested to see if some data indicates that.

Regarding the “we just can’t hit” scenario. No, we don’t have a NYY lineup. But I’d be interested in seeing the drop off in hitting stats in the last two years of some of our rookies and call ups as compared to what that typical drop off is for the league. Again, emotional and non-data based observation, but it seems like ours is significant.

by whodatrays on Aug 3, 2011 9:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

wOBA already does this, a walk is worth .72 runs and single is worth .9 runs

A single is better than a walk and both are better than an out.

@SandyKazmir

Sometimes you eat the bear...

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 3, 2011 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

I get that. I think there could be a bit more expansion.

Let me try to get my thoughts in order.

Do you realize Betty White is a milf for me? Ouch

follow me on twitter @sternfan10

by sternfan1 on Sep 3, 2010 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs

by wtbudlight on Aug 3, 2011 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

It just bothers the shit out of me that people think the Rays are only trying to walk all the time

They’re key holing a pitch with no strikes, expanding to cover most of the plate with one, and covering total plate plus a bit more with two strikes. They’ll take a walk if they don’t get the pitch they can hit, but I prefer my batters looking to drive a pitch rather than just put some in play and hope it all works out.

@SandyKazmir

Sometimes you eat the bear...

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 3, 2011 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

You may have misinterpreted what I said.

Sure, I was implying they are trying to take pitches (and possibly walks), but also said I’d like to see what the numbers say in that regard and go a step further in the value of it and attempt to quantify the pros/cons and advantages and disadvantages.

Obviously I was building on the perception that you hate, but is generally “thought” to be true.

Do you realize Betty White is a milf for me? Ouch

follow me on twitter @sternfan10

by sternfan1 on Sep 3, 2010 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs

by wtbudlight on Aug 3, 2011 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

The man makes a point
Adva

Tm 23B Scr % 02B Adv % PAu
ARI 222 110 50% 153 81 53% 0
ATL 184 78 42% 138 70 51% 0
BAL 181 90 50% 146 81 55% 0
BOS 306 146 48% 204 114 56% 0
CHC 200 95 48% 160 82 51% 0
CHW 207 99 48% 127 59 46% 0
CIN 240 133 55% 163 89 55% 0
CLE 211 120 57% 161 89 55% 0
COL 246 121 49% 173 90 52% 0
DET 234 119 51% 171 91 53% 0
FLA 239 116 49% 158 87 55% 0
HOU 206 111 54% 172 90 52% 0
KCR 245 121 49% 169 92 54% 0
LAA 198 102 52% 147 78 53% 0
LAD 220 112 51% 157 91 58% 0
MIL 203 112 55% 154 91 59% 0
MIN 215 121 56% 137 64 47% 0
NYM 257 137 53% 180 101 56% 0
NYY 237 139 59% 173 97 56% 0
OAK 229 135 59% 154 93 60% 0
PHI 217 107 49% 139 75 54% 0
PIT 203 124 61% 146 83 57% 0
SDP 229 111 48% 147 86 59% 0
SEA 215 115 53% 128 75 59% 0
SFG 206 104 50% 166 95 57% 0
STL 206 112 54% 168 97 58% 0
TBR 218 102 47% 169 92 54% 0
TEX 211 117 55% 166 108 65% 0
TOR 218 118 54% 156 92 59% 0
WSN 227 121 53% 143 85 59% 0
LgAvg 221 115 52% 158 87 55% 0
6630 3448 52% 4725 2618 55% 0

Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Original Table
Generated 8/3/2011.

@SandyKazmir

Sometimes you eat the bear...

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 3, 2011 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions  

First column is number of runners on 3B with less than two outs, second column is the number of those that scored, 3rd puts that into a percent

4th column is man on second with no outs and so on.

Rays are the second worst by percentage at getting a runner in from third with less than two outs despite being middle of the pack as far as opportunities.

@SandyKazmir

Sometimes you eat the bear...

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 3, 2011 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

I wonder if they should don the green and the "devil" again

they have been pretty uninspired of late.

Shelton needs to go. I base it simply on the approach. The Rays have the worst approach to hitting of any team I’ve seen. At some point your job is to change that and if you don’t you go. Shop is the perfect example swinging 2-0 at a bad ball changing the count from what would have been 3-0 to 2-1 before eventually King.

Now I’m sure that won’t solve it all (they still don’t have any hitters) but it’s a start. The def of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result. You need a change.

by BenZorbist on Aug 3, 2011 9:48 AM EDT reply actions  

MOM since June 1

175/234/351—and much of that is as a platoon player

Could Ruggiano be any worse, and at least he can do it v both RH and LH pitching

follow me on twitter @sternfan10

by sternfan1 on Aug 3, 2011 9:50 AM EDT reply actions  

Yes

ruggs is worse. Not even a discussion

by BenZorbist on Aug 3, 2011 9:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

Look at those numbers again and tell me he'd be worse than that

and as i say, Joyce’s AB were cherry picked, mainly coming only v RHP

He blows, trade him while he might have value to some dopey team

follow me on twitter @sternfan10

by sternfan1 on Aug 3, 2011 9:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

Not gonna happen

Allegedly 5 teams were interested in BJ. That’s about as big a sample size you’re gonna get to judge someone’s value. Yet they didn’t get enough offered. We over value our players sometimes.

by whodatrays on Aug 3, 2011 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

Steve, Cork disagree with you. In "the bad".

David Price. He is just a mess right now. Three more runs, including 2 home runs and failed to finish the 7th inning. Has now allowed at least 3 runs in 5 of his last 6 starts.

by mr. maniac on Aug 3, 2011 10:20 AM EDT reply actions  

lulz

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Aug 3, 2011 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

Joyce is not hitting to all fields

Kotch hits to all fields. B.A. said it best. Joyce needs to watch how Kotch does it ,and then follow up. It is not rocket science. You can look at a spray chart and see it. Not hitting to all fields is why these so called big boppers go into extended slumps( Pena). In the month of May ,Joyce was going with the pitch.

by Landlord on Aug 3, 2011 10:20 AM EDT reply actions  

We get the point.

If Joyce could hit it opposite field all the time though, he would be an amzing hitter. It is much easier to hit it to opposite field as a slap hitter.

by mr. maniac on Aug 3, 2011 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Look for the Jays to be major players for the Prince

How does a Lind, Bautista, Fielder grab you?

Throw in a Colby and suddenly they can mactch up with the best of them

follow me on twitter @sternfan10

by sternfan1 on Aug 3, 2011 12:01 PM EDT reply actions  

another reason we need out of the ALE

the revenue/spending gap is now extending to TOR

BAL has always shown a willingness to spend, but they’re too dumb to figure it out on the development side

follow me on twitter @sternfan10

by sternfan1 on Aug 3, 2011 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'll believe that ridiculous $150M quote when I see it, they ramped up one time and that was it

2011: $ 62,567,800
2010: $ 62,234,000
2009: $ 80,538,300
2008: $ 97,793,900
2007: $ 81,942,800
2006: $ 71,915,000

@SandyKazmir

Sometimes you eat the bear...

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 3, 2011 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Right by the balls

Throw in a Lawrie and a Junel and that’s a sick lineup. Crazy that in the last 2 years they’ve added Morrow, Colby, Lawrie, Junel, FA 1B after this year, and extended Bautista while getting rid of Rios and Wells and not much else.

@SandyKazmir

Sometimes you eat the bear...

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 3, 2011 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

The Rays hitting approach/philosophy needs to change

The JoMa approach is to see a lot of pitches, take a lot of pitches, have quality AB’s, and get into the other teams bullpen. That is backed up by his hand picked hitting coach with Shelton. No where do I hear or see, that hitters be aggressive, make contact, understand the hitting situation, have an idea of what the pitcher likes to throw, or hit the ball where it is pitched. I am confused but not surprised when the team, consistently, struggles to get hits,has terrible and unproductive at bats during crucial hitting and run scoring situations and fails so often with RISP. It is further highlighted by the “, get them on, get them in”, manufacture runs method that Maddon has preached for most of the last two seasons. It is a team failure which traces back to what hitters are taught and how they are expected to perform.

I call it a passive/reactive hitting approach. Wait, wait and then take advantage of the opportunities. The problem is when you wait so long, you become less aggressive when the those chances come. And when the opposing pitchers know your style, it becomes easier to pitch to situations and to hitters weaknesses. It is not working, IMO.

Blame the players all you want because you feel they are the ones with the bat in their hand. Hitting begins well before the batter steps in the box.

by budman3 on Aug 3, 2011 12:01 PM EDT reply actions  

+1

follow me on twitter @sternfan10

by sternfan1 on Aug 3, 2011 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

They're all terrible, do you even watch the games?

It has nothing to do with approach and everything to do with ability

@SandyKazmir

Sometimes you eat the bear...

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 3, 2011 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

All hitting starts with an approach

You are saying they all suck. I am saying this group of players skill level does not match what they are being coached and managed to do. There is a disconnect between what they may be good at and what they are expected to do.

Hitting begins with a mental approach and that is developed before you step in the box. These Rays are not being coached to hit…they are being coached to have good at bats. Big difference in my book.

by budman3 on Aug 3, 2011 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree Zobrist and Kotch are succeeding because they can slap the ball around

Zobrist has much more power so his slaps are doubles compared to Kotch’s singles. Longoria, Upton, Joyce, Shoppach, Rodriguez all just want to hit the ball 500 feet and we see how that works when they try to “work the count” and end up trying to hit breaking balls on 2-2 or 1-2 counts. I agree I hate the approach, other teams have caught on and they whole point is to get to the bullpen right? well how often do we get to another teams pen before the 7th or 8th. It seems every opposing starter goes at least 7 innings.

by Dbullsfan on Aug 3, 2011 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Half of our lineup on any given day struggles to make contact or hit for power in any way

8th worst in overall contact as a team
9th worst in out of zone contact
4th worst in in zone contact which is about as damning as anything you can think of

Swing percentages tell a much different story, the Rays swing at the 4th least amount of pitches that are out of the zone, while swinging at the 9th least amount in the zone. Their selection is much better than their execution. BTW, the Yankees swing at much less pitches than us overall (42.9% vs. our 44.6%, Red Sox check in at 44.7%). It has much less to do with the decision to swing than it does with what happens next once that decision has been made

@SandyKazmir

Sometimes you eat the bear...

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 3, 2011 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, it's been covered already but I can't get over this

Last 7 times we had loaded bases no outs we DIDN’T score 6 of those times. Do you realize how hard that is? The defense is always giving away a run, even a DP gets you on the board, a walk, a fly out, a force play, pretty much anything besides these beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep K’s! gets you a run. It’s easy to sit here and blame Upton or Shop or Joyce or whoever but the fact is unless your Jennings or Zobrist, we already know your AB will produce nothing.

Unbelievable, only thing we’re heading for is a better draft pick.

Under construction

by joeybw on Aug 3, 2011 12:17 PM EDT reply actions  

FWIW, we're looking into that stat to see if it's true.

Might be a bit of an exaggeration, at least from what we can tell so far.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow

by Steve Slowinski on Aug 3, 2011 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Also, the offense makes this a non factor but

End the 6 man already for gods sake. Shorter bullpen and less effective starts especially for what’s supposed to be our front 2 guys. I mean, we had a day off and we are doing this stupid 6 man, Price and Shields get 6 days off, you think they want any part of that? While they do it for Hellickson, it’s messing with other guys and Hellickson’s innings aren’t even that high, they are over thinking his inning limit. Despite how good he’s been lately, I still support Neimann as a back end RP, especially next season, what are we gonna do? Let Moore rot like we did with Jennings? Go to a 7 man? Come on now.

Under construction

by joeybw on Aug 3, 2011 12:32 PM EDT reply actions  

poor lil joey

follow me on twitter @sternfan10

by sternfan1 on Aug 3, 2011 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

you guys are sad

The team is boring you so much that you have to keep making the same jokes about me just to have something to do. Go watch some porn, old man.

Under construction

by joeybw on Aug 3, 2011 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yessssssssss

@SandyKazmir

Sometimes you eat the bear...

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 3, 2011 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

In fairness to SF1

You did make up a ridiculous story , make a fanpost about it, and then accept sympathy for your lie. If you expect people to not make jokes about it for as long as you choose to post here, you’re fooling yourself.
You should have just continued the ruse.

Twitter: @mbleazy

by MikeB. on Aug 3, 2011 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

I did?

Thanks for that breaking news.

I guess I should just leave the site for good, eh?

Keep the stupid jokes coming.

Under construction

by joeybw on Aug 3, 2011 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

JoeyBW

Someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed today.

I do this for free

by SRQman on Aug 3, 2011 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

There's something about a bunch of guys with nothing better to do than insult you all the time

That makes them, well, not insulting. What I did was stupid and should be insulted but it seems all you guys know how to do is insult me. Call me sleepy all you want, even I can find better things to do than you guys.

Under construction

by joeybw on Aug 3, 2011 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

What about Laynce Nix for DH next year?

less avg more power. Can play LF so it allows flexibility with the DH we don’t have this year.

by BenZorbist on Aug 3, 2011 2:14 PM EDT reply actions  

We should definitely expect more below average batters than Colby Rasmus or a young, power hitting 1B

I think Greg Norton is still alive, he’s a switch hitter at least

@SandyKazmir

Sometimes you eat the bear...

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 3, 2011 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

When do you ever hear this coming from the Rays?

http://www.rotoworld.com/playernews/mlb/baseball?r=1&rw=1

Mike Moustakas will sit for the next two days as he works on adjusting his swing.
Moustakas is not in danger of being demoted, but he’s batted just .194/.253/.252 through his first 172 major league plate appearances and the Royals want change. Hopefully the 22-year-old third baseman can finish out his rookie campaign on a strong note courtesy of a new plate approach.

by budman3 on Aug 3, 2011 5:30 PM EDT reply actions  

Because when people think of well-run organizations the Royals come to mind.

They’re going to squander all that talent and playing in arguably the easiest division in baseball and end up not winning a single playoff game with this group of guys coming up.

@SandyKazmir

Sometimes you eat the bear...

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 4, 2011 9:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

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