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Deep Thoughts: Random Stuff Edition


With a little over a month left in the season the Rays are one of the more interesting teams in baseball. They're good, but not good enough given the division they play in. As usual they're loaded with many interesting players, situations, and decisions. Instead of focusing on just one topic for today's edition of Deep Thoughts, R.J. Anderson (of Baseball Prospectus fame) and I will touch on a variety of things floating around the Rays universe at the moment.

Erik: At the All-Star break Kyle Farnsworth was picked as the team's MVP by local media members. You and I didn't agree with that assessment then and doubt we're going to like what the result will be at the end of the season. It would be similar to Bartlett winning in 2008. Let's talk about justifying that selection.

R.J.: I think you have to answer these two questions:

1) Do you consider Kyle Farnsworth a reasonable candidate for the Rays MVP award?
2) Do you consider Joel Peralta a reasonable candidate for the Rays MVP award?

Erik: Well, if I wanted to I could try and make a case for Farnsworth as team MVP. I'm not sure how compelling of an argument it would be, though. As for Peralta...no, no I don't think I could consider that. I'm assuming you're going to tell me how, though.

Star-divide

R.J.: Not exactly, because I think the answer to both is no, but for the sake of entertainment, what mainstream attributes does Farnsworth have that Peralta does not? By my count, Farnsworth has a) a better earned run average, b) better peripherals, c) more saves, and d) the closer label. How people weigh those things is dependent on personal taste, but I would say that at least half of those reasons are mostly bunk.

For instance, Farnsworth does have more saves than Peralta, there's no way around that, but is it really appropriate to give the pitcher full value for being the guy who pitches the ninth instead of the eighth? Doubtful, which is why--even if you use saves as a value metric (and you shouldn't)--I like how Baseball-Reference tracks save opportunities as well as save situations--the former is only in the ninth inning, the latter is the seventh-through-ninth. Going by that, Farnsworth has blown four of his 26 opportunities (which is also his situations rate), while Peralta has blown just two of his 20 situations. Peralta, therefore, actually has blown a lower rate of save situations. He's well behind in saves, but he rarely has the chance to record a save because he isn't often called into the game during the ninth inning.

Tell me, who do you think has entered more often in close games--Peralta or Farnsworth?

Erik:  My guess would be Peralta because he works in the 7th or 8th most of the time, and since the Rays offense aren't world beaters they're likely going to play more close games.

R.J.: Yup, and that's the kicker. Once you strip away the saves and look beyond the label, you'll realize that it's Peralta with a higher percentage of his appearances coming in the tied, one-, and two-run games rather than Farnsworth. It takes until the three-run or less game split in the chart below before Farnsworth exceeds Peralta, and even then, it's closer than you may expect:

Deepthoughtsimage_medium


So if Farnsworth isn't saving games at a higher rate, necessarily, he isn't pitching on zero days rest or going multiple innings more often, and he isn't entering a higher rate of close games. It comes down to his ERA advantage--which is equal to eight runs over 50 innings pitched. Farnsworth is the better pitcher, no doubt, and he is having the better seasons, but the truth of the matter is that he isn't that much better of a MVP candidate than Peralta, and that should tell you all you need to know about the merits of his candidacy.

Erik: Agreed. And I think we can all agree that Davey Martinez's beard has been the team's MVP anyway. Let's talk about Sam Fuld. He's had a strange season to say the least. April, June and August = Good, May and July = Bad. Is that the life of a platoon player who doesn't see the plate appearances to collect a big enough sample? Or, is he, yanno, bad?

R.J.: Something I wonder about with Fuld is how his diabetes can wreak havoc on his physical health. I'd imagine that plays up a lot more over the day-to-day grind of being a starter, so it's interesting that the timeline you mention sort of follows a pattern. If you split his season up into two halves--pre-Justin Ruggiano and post-Ruggiano, or before and after May 20--you'll see what I'm sort of getting around to hinting at:

Pre-J.R.: .233/.284/.356 (177 plate appearances)
Post-J.R.: 245/.340/.367 (162 plate appearances)

Maybe it's just me, but the post-Ruggiano split looks to me like a line that fits Fuld's game. Perhaps I'm just falling into a narrative and arbitrary endpoints because I like Fuld--from his skill set to his initiative in turning his 15 minutes of fame into a diabetes awareness campaign--but it isn't impossible to think his diabetes might affect him as an everyday player more so than when he appears every few days to give one of the outfielders a breather, which is fine, because that's the role he's likely to play during his duration in a Rays uniform.

Erik: And how long do you expect that duration to be? The way it sits right now it seems the Rays will probably have a 2012 outfield of ? in left field, Jennings in center and Joyce in right. The question mark will probably be filled with Guyer, or some yet to be named free agent. Do you think Fuld sticks around as a defensive replacement/sometimes platoon player?

R.J.: I think he fits the 2012 roster, assuming nothing big changes in the outfield. The beauty of Fuld is that he can do some things that others on the depth chart can't--you aren't going to ask Ruggiano to pinch-run or play center field in the best-case scenario. I also think Fuld fits even if the team decides they still want to platoon Joyce or Guyer--although there is a school of thought that he could be an everyday player--because of his versatility and because of his cost. Plus, the guy is gold off of the field. It's like the Rays designed the perfect nondescript player on the field who has grade-80 everything away from it, right down to his grandiose Wikipedia page. Even with the dwarfism (and the media's infatuation with it), I find it difficult to harbor a snarky thought about Fuld anymore.

Erik: Last one, and we'll make it a quick hitter.Who would like to see the Rays call up when the rosters expand? Matt Moore would be a treat to watch, but I think there's little chance of that happening. Guyer and Canzler would be the only two I'm especially interested in.

R.J.: Canzler (he has to be added to the 40-man before this winter anyways, may as well get a sneak peek on whether he's just a bench guy or not), Guyer, Chirinos, and maybe a pen arm or two for sure. Otherwise, I'm prone to appeal to authority on player development matters, so if they don't think Moore or Chris Archer are ready, who am I to say otherwise?

I was thinking about this a few days ago: Why is it that Tampa Bay's promotions over the last few years have performed so much better out of the gates (and arguably over their entire careers) than say, Kansas City's? Is it a skill, luck, some of both? I guess is it a matter of letting a player develop a little longer than needed in the minors versus trying to promote them as soon as they're ready. Given the fiscal restrains on this organization they're going to pursue the former route anyways, but maybe there are benefits to that lifestyle regardless.

 

To me, boxing is like a ballet, except there's no music, no
choreography and the dancers hit each other. - Jack Handy

Comment 85 comments  |  1 recs  | 

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Our very own RJ, all grown up and ready for prime time

I agree Sam Fuld is a lock to be on this team, but in the capacity we’ve seen him post J.R. He isn’t an everyday player for all sorts of reasons

The Farnsworth MVF talk (no ytpo) is silly and no one in this community bought into it. It’s pretty clear our MVP wears #11

follow me on twitter @sternfan10

by sternfan1 on Aug 31, 2011 8:15 AM EDT reply actions  

Love Fuld

Deep Thoughts=Prime Time. He did get a very nice Grantland rub from Jonah yesterday, linking to his BP piece on injuries.

Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla

by FreeZorilla on Aug 31, 2011 8:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

Nah, I read it on my own. I'm not so lucky as to gchat with Prime Time (We DM instead)

Had some formerly local non-baseball friends point out grantland love for the “drays” on grantland. Naturally I linked them to http://www.draysbay.com/2011/1/24/1950102/extracting-the-juice-out-of-desmond-jennings which was rec’d by the esteemed Mr. Keri as a #notsohumblebrag of my own.

Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla

by FreeZorilla on Aug 31, 2011 9:10 AM EDT up reply actions  

My non-local baseball friend sent it to me as well.

Told him about my argument with Reej over the creator of “Deezy.” I relented that he created it after thorough DRB comment searching. Simmons on baseball is awful, though. Granted I can’t really read Simmons on much of anything anymore (which isn’t original just a fact).

by rglass44 on Aug 31, 2011 9:14 AM EDT up reply actions  

Wouldn't the better argument be who is the better reiever, Farnsworth or Peralta?

WHy diminish either of them, both good contributors to the Rays this season, because of your low emphasis on relievers?

follow me on twitter @sternfan10

by sternfan1 on Aug 31, 2011 9:14 AM EDT reply actions   1 recs

not at all

follow me on twitter @sternfan10

by sternfan1 on Aug 31, 2011 9:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

That's the thing, perhaps it's me being removed from the area, but I recall no Farnsworth for MVP bandwagon at the half way point

It just seems like an issue to talk about that doesn’t really exist. I think it’s pretty clear that Shields or Zobrist are the MVP and you can probably throw Price in for his body of work even if there were clear ups and downs.

If you can't say something to someone's face then it's not worthy of being said behind their back.

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 31, 2011 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

Good thing that's meaningless

Where’s his trophy?

If you can't say something to someone's face then it's not worthy of being said behind their back.

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 31, 2011 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

4 horseman

If we look at consistency as a factor for MVP then Shields and Price certainly take the top two spots on the pitching side and Zobrist and Kotchman on the offensive side.

I’d have to say that Shieds has been more effective than Price this year, so I’ll choose Shields as MVP pitcher.

Zobrist has simply contributed more to the team in terms of defense at two positions and more pop out of his bat in terms of extra base hits than Kotchman, so I’ll take Zobrist as my Offense MVP.

To pick between Shields and Zobrist is difficult. If I had to, I’d take the guy who contributes to the team everyday, so I’ll take Zobrist.

That’s my Rays MVP argument in a nutshell.

by MrNegative1 on Aug 31, 2011 10:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

I may agree with that

but I factor in consistency in my equation so I didn’t really consider him.

I think Longo will end up with better numbers than Kothcman, I just think he lacked the consistency to provide the Rays value April though September.

Some may not agree with it, but its how I would drill down a team MVP.

by MrNegative1 on Aug 31, 2011 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

well

I think of those who have not gone into the tank for a month or two or missed significant time due to injury.

And, I don’t consider mediocre production month to month as MVP like.

Hey, we all have our different way of viewing an MVP for the league or the team.

But, if I had to vote for a team MVP, I vote for Zobrist.

If I had to submit a list of 4 candidates for fans to vote on, I’d submit Price, Shields, Zobrist, Kotchman.

(Hey, this might not be a bad Fanpost?)

Who would be your four candidates for Rays MVP and why (lay out the reasons)?

by MrNegative1 on Aug 31, 2011 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

4? Shields, Price, Zo, and Longo.

Longo’s WAR is 2.3 wins higher than Kotch. He’s only played in 14 less games, so the injury issue is mitigated.

by rglass44 on Aug 31, 2011 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions  

cool

understand using stats to justify your MVP candidate

Fan Post going up shortly to ask the question

Good stuff. I think 4 is a good number.

Thanks,

by MrNegative1 on Aug 31, 2011 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

my biggest problem with the consistency argument is the impossibility of quantifying it.

Do you SD on wOBA by game? Moving avg of 5 games? 10 games? look at monthly splits? etc. etc. seemingly the most consistent will always be the high-ba guys that put a lot of balls in play because they should have the most consistent BA. those guys generally arent that valuable unless they play a premium defensive position.

by rglass44 on Aug 31, 2011 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

understand

maybe stats don’t quantify it but Matt Joyce disappearing for June and July and Evan Longoria being injured in April and not so hot in July kind of soured me on those two, even though their overall stats may be better.

I put the fanpost up and I’ll be interested to see who others top 4 are.

by MrNegative1 on Aug 31, 2011 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

Zobrist has two sub-.700 OPS months.

Longo has 0 (as does Kotch). Kotch had a .765 OPS in July to Longo’s .722. It just seems terribly inconsistent and a way to use narrative to bolster a substandard candidate. Much like using narrative to keep Bautista from being MVP because his teammates aren’t as good.

by rglass44 on Aug 31, 2011 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

so your list

would be Price, Shields, Zobrist, and Longoria

That’s cool, not what my 4 would be, but hopefully everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

by MrNegative1 on Aug 31, 2011 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

You must be new here

Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla

by FreeZorilla on Aug 31, 2011 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

.

http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2011/8/26/2384298/hitter-volatility-part-vi-getting-it-right-is-more-important-than

If you can't say something to someone's face then it's not worthy of being said behind their back.

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 31, 2011 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

lol... C-Pain among the least volatile.

Qualifying Rays:

Player Volatility
Evan Longoria 0.122
B.J. Upton 0.124
Casey Kotchman 0.124
Sam Fuld 0.13
Ben Zobrist 0.133
Matthew Joyce 0.134
Johnny Damon 0.135
Sean Rodriguez 0.155

by rglass44 on Aug 31, 2011 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

It's been a topic that has been on the backburner here for awhile

A year or two back it was hit on a bit more. Glad to see someone running with it though.

I thank Draysbay for proving that Loose Change fanatics exist in mainstream America, and more importantly for Chik-fil-A spicy chicken recommendations. My life is forever changed

by matthan on Aug 31, 2011 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

The debate is really then some sort of marginal WAR

If your contributions is concentrated in a more limited amount of games, then wouldn’t that artificially inflate your real world win contribution versus WAR? I know we are talking about Longo, but the one game that came straight to my mind was Zobrist and like his million RBIs in one game. It isn’t like those million RBIs (obviously a poor stat, but I’m too lazy to look up the actual game) doesn’t translate into production in other games. So if a player is really inconsistent, but when he plays well, he plays really well…then I think you can make an argument that his contribution is overkill when he actually makes that contribution.

I thank Draysbay for proving that Loose Change fanatics exist in mainstream America, and more importantly for Chik-fil-A spicy chicken recommendations. My life is forever changed

by matthan on Aug 31, 2011 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's a really nice breakdown and a carbon copy of how I think about it.

If you can't say something to someone's face then it's not worthy of being said behind their back.

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 31, 2011 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

How valuable do you think Farnsworth is to Joe Maddon?

He knows he doesn’t have to worry about the 9th inning. For 15 seasons NYY managers haven’t had to spend a thought worrying about the 9th—nice feeling

follow me on twitter @sternfan10

by sternfan1 on Aug 31, 2011 9:16 AM EDT reply actions  

Yea, let's hope it avoids the same fall off the cliff

Post-season isn’t happening but winning 90, with this roster, should be MOY material for Maddon.

I'm not a fanboy, I'm a _______

by Jason Collette on Aug 31, 2011 9:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

I guess.

Considering who votes for it, they should award that. The computers and geeks pegged us at about 90 wins.

by rglass44 on Aug 31, 2011 9:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

PECOTA said 84-78

local talking heads said 75-78 wins
intelligent people here said 86-88 wins

I'm not a fanboy, I'm a _______

by Jason Collette on Aug 31, 2011 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

OMG!!!!

I said 87, does that make me intelligent?

Fuck PlayOnWords!

Boom. Outta Here.

@RyanGilliss

Also follow my Wolfpack:

@RealNolenBailey

@wtb_tampa

@ptsuttery

@sternfan10

@Josh_Frank

by Ryan Gilliss on Aug 31, 2011 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

OT: Maybe I missed it posted, but did anyone read Jonah own Bill Simmons?

Do you realize Betty White is a milf for me? Ouch

follow me on twitter @sternfan10

by sternfan1 on Sep 3, 2010 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs

by wtbudlight on Aug 31, 2011 9:26 AM EDT reply actions  

If I seem like a giant it's because I've stood on the tops of others shoulders

COME AT ME COWARD

If you can't say something to someone's face then it's not worthy of being said behind their back.

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 31, 2011 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

A lot was hyperbole

Whiel its important for the Rays to capture peak periods, its not as much so for the Sox. If they could gain a few wins by bringing up a guy earlier, the opportunity cost is less due to deep pockets.

Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla

by FreeZorilla on Aug 31, 2011 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

Meanwhiel the Rays remain service-time champs

The caller said the boy, after removing the bulb from its socket, left the building and threw the bulb on the ground. When the bulb broke, the caller said the boy screamed "CL053D C45K37"

by Top Gun Numba 1 on Aug 31, 2011 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

King stay the king

If you can't say something to someone's face then it's not worthy of being said behind their back.

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 31, 2011 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm proposing that you spelled 'whiel' wrong.

The caller said the boy, after removing the bulb from its socket, left the building and threw the bulb on the ground. When the bulb broke, the caller said the boy screamed "CL053D C45K37"

by Top Gun Numba 1 on Aug 31, 2011 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think the key component is whether you want the extra year now, or later

Obviously it isn’t 1 year for 1 year, and production should be better on the backend. So that is on the side of waiting. But also, salary inflation as well as discounting the time value of performance means you should get the players in quicker. However, the one thing the Rays are good at is they understand the value of a marginal win is literally nothing (except a crappier draft spot) until you reach the 90’s.

I thank Draysbay for proving that Loose Change fanatics exist in mainstream America, and more importantly for Chik-fil-A spicy chicken recommendations. My life is forever changed

by matthan on Aug 31, 2011 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

To your "sneak peak" point

If Canzler comes here and hits .150/.200/.269 over 75 plate appearances does it tell us anything about him as a player. If he hits .350/.450/.550 over that same sample does it really tell us anything? I have no interest in setting up false expectations if he performs exceptionally nor raking him over the coals if he tanks over that small of a sample. You can say that it would be great to see if he can handle MLB pitching, but in effect, we’re learning nothing and would be responding to the variabilities of a microscopic sample.

If you can't say something to someone's face then it's not worthy of being said behind their back.

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 31, 2011 10:09 AM EDT reply actions  

Sure, but the team already knows what they have in the player. I'm more concerned about spending the winter defending this guy

to the masses if he struggles or tempering expectations if he soars. The team has to be confident in what they know about him at this point so “proving” something over that small of a sample doesn’t mean much to me. Even from a mechanical standpoint. We know that he’s not a very good fielder but can play multiple positions. We know he’s got a pretty good eye, but has a penchant to strike out. We know he’s got some pop, but it seems built more around doubles than homers. He makes bad contact often and I remain unconvinced that he’s not just doing all his work when he can get ahead in the count vs. fodder arms and then sit on a pitch.

I hope he becomes a key part of this team as I do for every player affiliated, but I don’t think calling him up tells us much more than we already know. At least as far as the team that has watched him play all year and has seen video and most likely Pitch F.x of all his home games.

If you can't say something to someone's face then it's not worthy of being said behind their back.

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 31, 2011 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions  

There's something to be said to seeing a guy at the big league level.

The staff (including Maddon, Friedman, etc.) see a hell of a lot more of what the big leaguers are doing than the minor leaguers. Scouting is best done in person after all. Yes, I’m sure they know about him and his strengths and weaknesses, but seeing how he fares against a Beckett/Sabathia/etc. down the stretch could go a long way in telling the FO if he’s just punishing AAA pitchers because he’s out thinking them or because he has the talent to be a productive minor leaguer. Who cares about tempering the expectations of the masses based on an SSS. The masses are going to be stupid and uninformed about something be it the near-batting champ departing or the AWFUL trade of Niemann.

by rglass44 on Aug 31, 2011 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

Scouting a pitcher in SSS is much easier, imo.

Hitters can really be streaky. We all know how bad Joyce can look when he is on a bad streak.

by mr. maniac on Aug 31, 2011 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

Getting him slightly more prepared for next year is more meaningful to the team than creating false expectations to the public

I thank Draysbay for proving that Loose Change fanatics exist in mainstream America, and more importantly for Chik-fil-A spicy chicken recommendations. My life is forever changed

by matthan on Aug 31, 2011 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

How important are September call ups?

How much did we learn of Desmond Jennings in his call up last year?

I subscribe to what RJ was hinting at, that being the Rays taking their time and bringing up a player later rather than sooner

follow me on twitter @sternfan10

by sternfan1 on Aug 31, 2011 11:33 AM EDT reply actions  

Did Jennings taste of MLB help him get off to a quicker start this year?

Its not about you and I learning Serny, its about players developing when the stakes are lower.

Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla

by FreeZorilla on Aug 31, 2011 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

I am glad to see Mr Anderson

factoring in Fuld’s condition in his thoughts on the legend. It’s nice to see Mr. Anderson develope his limited knowledge of the game.By factoring in other observations beyond a bias use of a stat sheet he has added to his credability Keep up the good work R.J. and others will follow.

by Landlord on Aug 31, 2011 11:34 AM EDT reply actions   2 recs

This is retarded.

Sign lady must die.
#rootingforstusbottomline

by EminenceFront on Aug 31, 2011 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

but hilarious

If you can't say something to someone's face then it's not worthy of being said behind their back.

by Sandy Kazmir on Aug 31, 2011 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

This is why you're ROY

The caller said the boy, after removing the bulb from its socket, left the building and threw the bulb on the ground. When the bulb broke, the caller said the boy screamed "CL053D C45K37"

by Top Gun Numba 1 on Aug 31, 2011 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thread ruined

"I might not be shit to you, but my momma thinks I made it
We gon' ball 'til we fall or this Conjure get us wasted
And I never drink that white, all my women think I'm racist"

by 4QB on Aug 31, 2011 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

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