David Price's Cutter Is Better Than You Think
David Price has a great fastball. He can easily pump it up over 95 mph; the movement is fantastic and varied between the two and four seem varieties, and he's learned to locate it with precision. His cutter is not as impressive. It sits between 90 mph and 92 mph, and is fairly straight (the perceived cut is in relation to a normal "straight" fastball, which actually moves quite a bit). Moreover, it's a new toy—he only started throwing the pitch this year.
Lately, it seems like Price has gone away from his fastball in key situations. His changeup has been a very good pitch, but when he's tried the newly developed cutter, he's given up runs. And people have noticed.
Fox sits on fastballs until he's told to go back to the bench, I don't think you can crucify Price for the cutter, though why not throw a change or a curve there - Sandy Kazmir
Let him sit on Price's fastball and see what happens - sveet
Still furious how you get beat on a cutter instead of your best pitch - sf1
I myself said something along those lines in a game recap a few weeks ago:
And really, that pitch is my only complaint with Price's performance. There are times when you try to trick a batter with your third best pitch (that you've only started throwing midway through this season), but a 1-2 count with the tying run on third isn't it. That's when you rear back and unleash 98 mph up above the zone.
Problem is, this way of thinking is bad analysis, and very possibly wrong (the one doesn't necessarily guarantee the other). I don't wish to be responsible for angering Rays fans against their hometown ace and making us seem dumb in the process, so here's a full retraction of my previous statement, and an explanation for why I was jumping the gun.
First off, let's dispense with the idea that we know he's using the cutter often in important spots. There are many crucial moments in a baseball game. What we fans have noticed is when he's failed while using the cutter in run scoring spots that ended up affecting the outcome of the game. If his offense had helped him out more, we wouldn't have noticed. If the Rays had already been down by two runs when he threw his fateful cutters, we wouldn't have noticed. If the cutters had been lined straight at B.J. Upton, we wouldn't have noticed.
To know the weightiness of the situations in which David Price is using his cutter, you would need to have pitch f/x data hooked up to measures of leverage index, which is not something I've done. Maybe the fact that I'm not working on doing so right now makes me lazy, but I'd rather be a lazy analyst who properly identifies the boundaries of what he knows than a bad analyst who overstates his knowledge.
But moving beyond that point, say that you think Price should primarily use his fastball in situations where the tying or the go-ahead run is in scoring position. Perhaps you think this is an obvious high leverage situation in which DP should fall back on his higher quality offerings. You'd still be wrong.
There are several good articles about the game theory of pitch selection. I strongly recommend reading Mitchel Lichtman's Fangraphs piece, as well as a follow-up article that JinAZ wrote for Beyond the Box Score. In the BtB piece, JinAZ takes a look at why Tim Wakefield's limp, 72 mph fastball graded out as one of the best pitches in all of baseball. The answer is its context.
Batters can hit a pitch—even a great one like Price's fastball—if they're looking for it. This is why pitchers mix their pitches. Game theory tells us that a pitcher is mixing his pitches correctly when he gets equal value from each individual pitch type. In these ratios (called a Nash Equilibrium), a pitcher will throw more of his better (from a scouting perspective) pitch types, but will throw just enough of his lesser pitches to keep the batter guessing. Here are Price's numbers, using linear weights pitch data from Fangraphs:
|
Percent Used |
Runs Saved /100 |
|
|
Fastball |
70.6 |
0.87 |
|
Changeup |
11.3 |
2.84 |
|
Cutter |
8.9 |
0.78 |
|
Curve |
9.3 |
-0.97 |
From this data, we can see that David Price's changeup has been absurdly potent. He's really worked on the pitch, and he could probably throw it more often than he does now. The curveball hasn't worked nearly as well, and he might help himself by throwing it less. The cutter, however, has actually gotten pretty similar results on a per pitch basis than the fastball has. He's mixing those two intelligently and effectively.
But, you argue, "We're not saying Price should use his cutter less overall, just not in the super-important, game-losing way he's done recently."
Yes, losing games is always bad, but that's the way game theory works. Imagine if the opposing pitching coaches could say, "Jake Fox, listen up. This pitcher throws a great fastball, but he mixes his pitches too. He'll keep you off balance, and you won't have a chance. Unless you come up with a man in scoring position and the game close. Then he'll just throw fastballs. So sit on the fastball and hit it out."
The whole purpose of varying your pitch selection according to a Nash equilibrium is that you stay unpredictable, and mostly work randomly. Sometimes you make the "bad" decision in an individual spot just to set up your current and future opponents for an overall better result. And this year it's worked out for Price in a big way, to the tune of eighth best SIERA (a good descriptor of pitching process, and predictor of future results) among qualified starters.
Lastly, because pitch selection, sequencing, and effectiveness is something we armchair analysts have pretty good access to data on, I'd like to encourage anybody who's interested to take a crack at proving me wrong or misguided in my defense of Price's decisions. If you've ever wanted to sink your teeth into some pitch f/x data but haven't quite known how, now's a time. I'm happy to try to answer any questions about nomenclature you encounter. Here's a spreadsheet of every pitch Price has thrown this year: PricePitches. All data is from Joe Lefkowitz. In the first worksheet, I have the pitches displayed chronologically and color-coded by type; in the other sheets, I've broken the types out to be considered separately. Keep in mind that what I'm calling a cutter, these classifications call a slider.
Enjoy (responsibly), and go play around with Joe's wonderful tool for yourself.
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my view
as a fan, I want to see David Price challenge Jake Fox with a 97 mph fastball on each pitch. If Fox hits it out of the park, again as a fan, I can live with it (mentally).
Analyzing everything involved and taking into account the sequencing, comfort level pitcher may have with a pitch on a given night (which I as a fan am not privy to!), and other factors tell us that Price probably went with what he felt would work.
I found Brian Anderson’s comments on the at-bat to be the most succinct. Maybe I’ll roll the tape back and grab the dialogue between Staats and BA, but that’ll have to wait.
I’ll conclude with the simple fact that as a fan I was disappointed in David Price and the decision to get beat on his cutter.
I couldn't agree with anything as much as this. As you and i both have Indians fan backgrounds
i recall in the 90’s Manny Ramirez homering off Dennis Eckersley, and the comment you read clearly from Eck’s lips was ‘wow’. In other words, he acknowledged Manny beating him on his best out pitch. As fans we’re not happy, but we can live with it
follow me on twitter @sternfan10
Yeah, it kind of seemed like Price was being sneaky or cute when being obvious would have sufficed.
The tough call is whether the game plan was Jaso, Price’s, or management’s fault. I would not be surprised if it was Jaso mildly underestimating both Jake Fox and David Price’s fastball.
A DRaysBay and FanGraphs writer from Cubs Stats and Twitter @BradleyWoodrum
As of late, his cutter has gotten a higher swing and miss% than his fastball.
It’s not just a strikeout looking pitch.
I guess the sequencing bothers me.
He goes: slider, slider, change, slider — then cutter?
Fox hadn’t seen the fastball yet. Why not throw the best pitch then? I don’t maybe it’s just me emulating Capt. Hindsight, but I felt like it was a strange attack plan against a pinch hitter.
A DRaysBay and FanGraphs writer from Cubs Stats and Twitter @BradleyWoodrum
I'm all of those non-changeups cutters.
That last one was a little bit faster and had a little more gloveside run than the other three. And it was right down the middle.
That was the real problem – the pitch just got away from him. Not executed.
Somehow i don't believe David Price was a 1/1 selection in the June draft because of his cutter
follow me on twitter @sternfan10
No, he was a 1/1 selection, because his fastball gives him the potential to be a great pitcher.
Actually reaching that potential involves mixing his lesser pitches in, and not just in low leverage spots.
I'm with you Whelk, it's easier for non-glove oilers to sit back and discuss how a guy should throw his best pitch, but the value of that pitch diminishes the more that batters see it
If you’ve ever thrown an inning at any level you understand the value of throwing your second or third best pitch to keep batters honest. It also shows the value of guys with 2-3 ++ pitches as both are equally good. The batter can’t sit on one. If Price wants to take that next step (which only the rarest are even in his shoes) then he needs to have a second pitch that’s only a notch back from his fastball. Watch Cliff Lee sometime. His best pitch might be his curveball. Or his cutter. Or his fastball. Or his slider. He’s a great pitcher because you have no idea what he’s going to bring and he can throw all exactly where he wants to.
and there goes our season
OTM's biggest Clutch Carl fan.
by gizmosandy on Sep 11, 2011 3:59 PM EDT reply actions
A couple thoughts
1- as Woody points out, Price NEVER threw Fox a fastball
2- With 250+ MLB starts i don’t think BA fits into your ‘non-glove oiler’ category
follow me on twitter @sternfan10
Were you watching last night when he advocated the exact pitch that was hammered for the three run homer?
Note it was the same exact pitch he had just thrown instead of using some element of surprise. If you’re going to throw the same exact pitch you have to throw it off the plate higher or further out and hope for a chase.
and there goes our season
OTM's biggest Clutch Carl fan.
by gizmosandy on Sep 11, 2011 3:59 PM EDT reply actions
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 15, 2011 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Kind of a separate issue. Obviously locating a pitch is always paramount
but as Woody and i point out, Price neevr threw his fastball
follow me on twitter @sternfan10
Which he was right to do, in his career Jake Fox has hammered one pitch and one pitch only, the fastball
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=6267&position=OF#pitchvalues
My thoughts, which whelk posted, were that he should have thrown a change or a curve which might be even weaker pitches than the cutter (at least for the curve), but are pitches that the batter struggles with. This is why pitching is so entertaining. You can’t just go up there and say, “This is what I’m good at so this is what I do.” There are way more variables involved.
and there goes our season
OTM's biggest Clutch Carl fan.
by gizmosandy on Sep 11, 2011 3:59 PM EDT reply actions
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 15, 2011 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Sort by wFB/C, Jake Fox has hit the fastball 4th best in MLB this year. Interesting that Loewen leads the list. In the Red Sox game he fouled off all kinds of pitches before taking a fastball back up the middle for the game winning basehit.
and there goes our season
OTM's biggest Clutch Carl fan.
by gizmosandy on Sep 11, 2011 3:59 PM EDT reply actions
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 15, 2011 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions
sorry sort this by wFB/C
and there goes our season
OTM's biggest Clutch Carl fan.
by gizmosandy on Sep 11, 2011 3:59 PM EDT reply actions
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 15, 2011 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Though this also shows that over his career he has handled the cutter pretty well, just not as much this year
As I said, I’d rather he throw the curve or change in lieu of any fastballs at all.
and there goes our season
OTM's biggest Clutch Carl fan.
by gizmosandy on Sep 11, 2011 3:59 PM EDT reply actions
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 15, 2011 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, probably would have been better with the soft stuff.
I’m not so much saying that what he did was exactly right. I just think the “don’t get beat on your third best pitch argument” doesn’t hold water.
by Whelk on Sep 15, 2011 2:19 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
It's just silly for anyone to argue that you should get beat with your best pitch when a guy can't hit anything else
Reeks of hindsight
and there goes our season
OTM's biggest Clutch Carl fan.
by gizmosandy on Sep 11, 2011 3:59 PM EDT reply actions
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 15, 2011 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions
There have bene days when Price has been accused of being over-reliant on his fastball
Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla
Interesting that Brooks is calling it a slider, though that could just be their methodology based on naming pitches based on previous repertoire
Love the separation between cutter and curve, wish his two fastballs would separate a bit more as I love when the two-seamer has that good late run off the plate. Lefties don’t stand a chance the way most umps call the outside strike out lefties. Doesn’t matter as much that his change is shite when he’s got the FT running well.
and there goes our season
OTM's biggest Clutch Carl fan.
by gizmosandy on Sep 11, 2011 3:59 PM EDT reply actions
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 15, 2011 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions
And here's a look at the top down move to see just how much more movement it had
and there goes our season
OTM's biggest Clutch Carl fan.
by gizmosandy on Sep 11, 2011 3:59 PM EDT reply actions
by Sandy Kazmir on Sep 15, 2011 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions
I'd probably call it a slider too. Do we know what he calls it
Regardless, I don’t really think it matters except for consistency’s sake, as he’s only throwing one fast breaking pitch.
by Whelk on Sep 15, 2011 2:24 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions

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