Another Shortstop Post
by jcmitchell on Sep 23, 2011 10:04 AM EDT
in Tampa Bay Rays News
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PrintI know, we are in the middle of chasing down the Red Sox and fending off the Angels in our late push for the American League Wild Card. Matt Moore looked like Clayton Kershaw last night and belongs in the rotation out of Spring Training in 2012. But I cannot get passed the fact that the Rays are starting Reid Brignac in nearly every game down the stretch.
I know, there seems to be a post once every other week about our shortstop problem. We all know it is a problem. Nay, a major problem. But it has not left my brain and I have been searching for a solution for this problem so we do not run into this problem again in 2012.
The solution to half of the problem is already here in the form of Sean Rodriguez. He is currently hitting .286/.400/.496 in 160 plate appearances against left handed pitching this season with a remarkable 20/26 BB/K rate. His career line of .265/.364/.430 is well above average for a shortstop proven by the 120 wRC+ over his career against left handed pitching. UZR doesn't exactly like his glove at short this year with a -6.7 but he has a +2.0 for his career and looks, to me at least, to be at least average with the glove with a well above-average arm. I'll take it.
The big problem at the position is what to do against right handed pitching. I don't think Rodriguez can handle right handers for an entire season. He is hitting .194/.271/.293 against them this year with a 14/57 BB/K rate and is .213/.274/.341 in his career. So, who is available that can be a legit platoon partner with Rodriguez? Let's take a look.
Reid Brignac had a fine 2010 season for the Rays but has fallen completely out of favor this year. We all love the glove at short but the bat is horrible. I won't even show the splits against left-handers because it may make you puke but here are his against right-handers: Career .242/.280/.352 and 2011 .193/.227/.228. His 2011 is pure trash and his career line is not passable in the Majors. Do the Rays pray he reverts to his 2010 form where he was at least pasable with a .261/.305/.401 mark or go outside for a replacement? My vote is to go outside if we want to contend.
Who are the options? Here is a list of the potential free agents at shortstop according to Cot's:
Yuniesky Betancourt MIL *
Ronny Cedeno PIT
Adam Everett CLE
Rafael Furcal LAD
Alex Gonzalez ATL
Cesar Izturis BAL
John McDonald TOR
Augie Ojeda ARI
Nick Punto STL
Edgar Renteria CIN
Jose Reyes NYM
Jimmy Rollins PHI
Ramon Santiago DET
Marco Scutaro BOS *
Jack Wilson SEA
Rollins and Reyes are not happening. Renteria, Betancourt, Cedeno, Everett, Gonzalez, and Santiago are all much better against left handers. We already have a guy who can handle that part of the platoon. Scutaro will probably have his option picked up with the Red Sox having no viable option at short as well.
Punto is a reserve player. Furcal is oft injured and about 40 years old and may sadly go for a few more million than we would throw at him. McDonald and Izturis cannot hit anyone. The only solution via free agency is to go after a 37 year old who was not even on the list at shortstop: Jamey Carroll.
Carroll shows no major platoon split and has a career .273/.353/.342 line against right handers and .281/.352/.331 in 2011 proving he can still handle the righties.
No, Carroll is not an ideal guy to handle shortstop for more than half the games but he may be our best option. Any one else have any other reasonable suggestions? I would love to hear them.
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Of those options listed give me Scutaro
If not i’ll take Sean Roddy for a year there, with some glove as a back up, defensive replacement, but NO platoon at SS
I hope Brignac is packaged away along with Davis in a trade for a promising bat or two
follow me on twitter @sternfan10
My thought was close to this...
“punt” for one more season and hope that one of our two SS prospects develops into something ready for the big-league roster between Lee and Beckham. I would almost say that our problems behind the plate FAR outweigh our problems at shortstop. Perhaps it is my Ozzy Smith/St. Louis bias, growing up used to light-hitting great fielding shortstops, but we need an everyday catcher that can play solid defense and hit his weight. This year has been even more of a disaster there.
Opera Singer, Baseball Fan, Beer Snob!
by Bryce Westervelt on Sep 23, 2011 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Get the Rockies GM on line one...
already rumored that Chris Iannetta will be available via trade in off-season. This is the guy to go for. Excellent defensively, high OBP, decent pop. Ranks in top 5 in OBP, and wOBA among all starting catchers.
by raysfaninminnesota on Sep 23, 2011 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions
dummy me posted my reply
at the bottom of the thread… I hate my computer….. reply fail.
Opera Singer, Baseball Fan, Beer Snob!
by Bryce Westervelt on Sep 23, 2011 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions
This, sadly, may be the route we go and Brignac be our defensive guy.
Would still love to see Carroll and his good OBP on our team.
I'd rather get Johnny Mac as he has a very good flove, so,e pop in his bat and can back up all 3 INF positions, as can Carroll btw
I want Brignac G-O-N-E
follow me on twitter @sternfan10
I know you do but he'd play for league minimum and can play SS and 2B.
Not that Johnny Mac will cost much but it’ll save money and be close to the same production assuming Brignac is not THIS bad.
Johnny Mac was a very good glove.
My eyes don’t think he is anymore. UZR too small to be conclusive, but not glowing, either.
by Whelk on Sep 23, 2011 10:54 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Trade SP for a SS
If you want to keep guns out of the hands of thugs, just attach job applications to them
Any for the right price
If you want to keep guns out of the hands of thugs, just attach job applications to them
Or Hanley Ramirez
Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com
by Imperialism32 on Sep 23, 2011 10:23 AM EDT up reply actions
*Shrug*
Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com
by Imperialism32 on Sep 23, 2011 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions
The O's just signed Hardy to an extension. I doubt he's going anywhere
but Andino is available
follow me on twitter @sternfan10
I like what I see out of Andino as a reserve
guy can play 3 infield positions
Hardy – forget about it. Never, ever, trade for a guy coming off a career year.
I'm not a fanboy, I'm a _______
by Jason Collette on Sep 23, 2011 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions
not a career year
Hardy was excellent in 2007/2008 before he battled injuries in 2009/2010.
In 2011 Hardy is healthy and his numbers are returning to what was expected from him when in Milwaukee.
This isn’t a guy who out of nowhere has 25+ home runs and a OPS 100 points higher than any other season.
Still, Baltimore just signed him to an extension and have zero interest in dealing him, so its a moot point anyways.
And just to be a jerk…..do you think Jose Baustista had any value last winter?
by MrNegative1 on Sep 23, 2011 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions
I miss Jason Bartlett.. that dude had grit.
How could the Rays have missed how bad Brignac was going to be? I’m more concerned about that…
RaysRev.com or m_weber on twitter
I don't think anyone saw this Brignac coming.
I don’t miss Bartlett. Hit lefties fine but so does S-Rod. We really need a guy who can hit righties.
At least he's not Adam Dunn
That is all that needs to be said about predictions-oof.
I put the screw IN THE TUNA!
by Transplanted on Sep 23, 2011 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions
One more year of S-Rod and Brignac, with possibly Beckham at mid-season
and monitor the market for Rafael Furcal. He’s not as old as is being portrayed—33-34 years old. Injury issues are there, but 1 year deal will all that’ll be necessary. He’s hit much better over Aug and esp Sep. He can be a very dynamic hitter and is worth a 1 year risk…especially since if he doesn’t work out, then you’d be back to Brignac and S-Rod, which is the main options at this point anyways.
At the right price, Furcal is worth the risk if he doesn’t resign with the Cardinals.
by raysfaninminnesota on Sep 23, 2011 11:21 AM EDT reply actions
I agree 100% on Furcal but I think the lack of decent available shortstops will make his price higher than the Rays would pay.
I am also not sold on Beckham especially this young and jumping to the Majors mid-season. I’m in the minority but I just don’t see it.
furcal seems like a perfect fit
We have depth w/ s-rod and bright in case of injury so wed be more equiped to handle injury than other team. Reid plays the elliot role next year. Srod spells against lefties at 2b/ss.
by rglass44 on Sep 23, 2011 12:15 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
agreed
If we can shore up SS and C with Furcal & Iannetta, we will be sound at every position (depending upon who we put at 1B). If we can add one bat to that group (Thome for DH?), and perhaps trade a SP for a 1B (Logan Morrison?), we can be ready to compete again in 2012.
by raysfaninminnesota on Sep 23, 2011 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions
My Dream Lineup
LF Jennings
CF Upton
3B Longoria
DH Thome
1B Morrison
2B Zobrist
RF Joyce
C Iannetta
SS Furcal
Having the speed from 9-1-2 of Furcal-Jennings-Upton would once again make the Rays a danger on the basepaths. And if the Rays could replace Damon-Kotchman with old sage-young padewon of Thome-Morrison, tons of thump would be added to middle-of-order, and lineup protection to Longoria. I can dream at least…
by raysfaninminnesota on Sep 23, 2011 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions
if we are going dream line-up here is mine
LF Jennings
CF Upton
3B Longoria
1B Votto (trade w/shields)
2B Zobrist
DH Damon/Rodriguez
RF Joyce/Guyer
C Chirinos/Lobaton
SS Brignac
I think that if we can somehow manage to pull a trade for Votto or Bruce than we can afford to have a all defense SS with Brignac everyday and I’d rather see Zoby everyday at 2B and let Sean platoon with Damon, who should resign cheaply and I don’t see a better option realistically than just hoping one of our catchers works out.
3 catchers worth checking on
Ramon Hernandez, Ryan Doumit (whose club option will be declined), and Iannetta. Russell Martin only earned a 1 year-5mil deal on the catching market last year. None of these options should surpass that.
As far as DH is concerned, Thome sounds willing to play, depending upon what teams are interested in him. Rays are the top AL team with a DH opening that has a chance at post-season. Thome would be a great clubhouse fit. And he’s cheap…earning only 2mil and 3 mil in each of last 2 seasons.
by raysfaninminnesota on Sep 23, 2011 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions
We basically need a stopgag for a year....no sense going after anyone for longer than that, but we need someone to handle it until Bex or Lee make it.
The Rays will snag one of these guys on a short term deal….the question is which slips through the cracks. I’m thinking Scutaro is probably the best we can hope for.
Although Furcal is an interesting case. That really depends how many other teams are turned off by his performance this season.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow
by Steve Slowinski on Sep 23, 2011 11:55 AM EDT reply actions
It might be worth scouring AAA for an overlooked, aquireable player who can fill the spot for one year.
I’m not a prospect guy, but here are the players with some SS experience who were in the top 100 in OPS in the International League. Are any of them intriguing?
Young but not a big prospect (I think):
Zach Cozart
Ryan Adams
Stephen Lombardozzi
Danny Worth
Nate Spears
Ramiro Pena
Matt Antonelli
Getting Old:
Tug Hulett
Kevin Frandsen
Robinson Chirinos
Drew Sutton
Jason Donald
Old:
Seth Bynum
Chase Lambin
Felipe Lopez
Probably too big a prospect, but I’m not sure:
Hector Luna
Brandon Hicks
Luis Valbuena
Cozart won't be traded unless it's in a big deal with us.
Jason Donald is intriiguing but I believe he has the same problem we have: can’t hit righties.
Chirinos is our catcher.
The rest can stay in AAA.
anto and lobardazzi cant play ss in mlb
by rglass44 on Sep 23, 2011 12:18 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
If they thought Zo could, he would have by now.
But what if one of these guys can play 2B, and Zobrist can play SS vs. RHP?
by Whelk on Sep 23, 2011 12:47 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
well it will be interesting to see what they do with Zo next year
he should be able to keep his OF glove at home unless some injuries happen assuming we go with a Jennings, Upton, Joyce/Guyer OF next year. I’d imagine that he would be the everyday 2B, but I’d really like to see the Rays give Zobrist the off-season and ST to work on SS again because it seems that Rodriguez is 1000 times better defensively at 2B.
if upton is still around it seems unlikely to me that zobrist will be in the OF at all
they still have fuld as well as the 4 you mentioned
Felipe Lopez....yessssss.
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously. -- @steveslow
by Steve Slowinski on Sep 23, 2011 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Drew Sutton.
Yes please.
He’s in the Red Sox org right now, but I’m not sure what kind of deal he’s got.
A DRaysBay and FanGraphs writer from Cubs Stats and Twitter @BradleyWoodrum
It's time that Friedman goes shopping in Japan again
With so little available in FA, and a trade for a quality SS doubtful,aybe it’s time for the Rays to sign a SS who might be posted from Japan this winter. It worked once before with Aki.
Tsuyoshi Nishioki worked out well for the Twins
Not!
Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com
by Imperialism32 on Sep 23, 2011 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree, no idea why they unloaded both Hardy and O-Dog after their 96 win season
follow me on twitter @sternfan10
Brad did a great job at looking at the talent in the NPB here:
Thanks!
It’s important to remember the posting system in Japan can be kind of tricky. MLB teams can’t just pick and choose who they want.
A DRaysBay and FanGraphs writer from Cubs Stats and Twitter @BradleyWoodrum
The value of Sean ROD
Should not be overlooked. He hits the ball very hard off his bat. Ball off bat speed is not a stat that our premier higher ups have access to. The Rays have this information.
Joe has a history of knowledge with Sean. Sean being in the Angels organization before joining the Rays gives him a foundation that Joe is fond of.
I think next year we see less platoon and more Sean and Joyce in everyday line up if they work on and meet their challenges in the off season.
Is the issue to find a better shortstop or
to improve the Rays offense?
I cannot remember who it was who evaluated Hendry (after we learned he had been fired) by claiming that his problem wasn’t lack of focus on the Cubs needs but too narrow a focus on how to fill them. So rather than look at many options, he would hone in on a particular player and pay whatever it required to get him when he might have filled the need more cheaply and just as well with someone else.
That might be the issue here. Brignac has been terrible offensively this year, but even if you think he will continue to be, will whoever replaces him (and Rodriguez possibly) be that much an improvement overall (offensively and defensively) that a similar advantage might not be gained by looking elsewhere for offense?
Even should Upton remain, there will likely be holes at 1B, C and DH, and if Upton leaves, that may mean an outfield position as well. Perhaps a trade will find an upgrade at one or more of those positions so that keeping shortstop as is will be viable. Or perhaps the market provides better options for upgrading the offense elsewhere than shortstop without a possible downgrade in defense even.
In the end, it is not SS that is the problem but, assuming we think that slots 1-5 are at least adequate, it is slots 6-9 in the lineup that need improving. The issue then is which ones can most effectively be improved, not whether the Rays need a better shortstop.
I think that the issue really is to find a better shortstop.
The overall goal is to improve the Rays team, and if you think about it in terms of improving the Rays’ offense, you’re narrowing your vision and ignoring one side of the equation. For every run you gain on offense, you might be losing it on defense.
I don’t think the FO needs to limit itself to replacing the very weakest links on the team, and I do think there will be other holes, but I don’t think I’m just arguing semantics either. Potential new players should be compared to the player they’re replacing, both on offense and defense, and not to their probable lineup spot.
And re-reading your post, I might just be arguing semantics.
It’s really just the last paragraph that I disagree with. Players are a position, not a spot in the batting order.
Unless I am misreading you,
I think we are saying the exact same thing. Shortstop is a position. So when someone says we need a better shortstop, s/he is saying we need a better fielder. But that is not the Rays problem. The problem is the Rays need more offense. And the market may be such that better offense is more available at DH or 1B et al. So the goal is not to replace the shortstop but to find someone to fill a hole in the lineup.
I also agree with your point about possibly losing on defense what you gain on offense, which also is part of my point in my original post. Suppose Betancourt provides more offense; he may lose almost as much on defense. So the issue is not really getting a better hitting shortstop. Of course, since our current SS is so abominable at the plate, if we think he will continue to be awful, the possibility of improving the team at SS seems easier than elsewhere. But the alternatives do not inspire much confidence that the overall upgrade will be significant, so perhaps it is better to look elsewhere.
To me it is narrow vision to focus on a position rather than on the lineup. I don’t see where you disagree with my last paragraph.
This.
If the Rockies would be a willing trade partner… Didn’t we send them Jason Hammel what amounted to a bag of balls since we let A. Rodriguez go in the Rule 5. AF clearly hasn’t raked them over the coals (see Angels, Cubs, Astros, Padres) so they might actually work…and we do have plenty of pitching…they actually might like a Wade Davis type arm that could play well in the National League…although a Niemann does tend to get a ton of groundballs, not sure how his curve would do at Coors.
Opera Singer, Baseball Fan, Beer Snob!
by Bryce Westervelt on Sep 23, 2011 5:05 PM EDT reply actions
Iannetta reply fail...
…I read on here daily…never comment, but jump in and the next thing I do is reply fail. Dummy. I should stick to reading.
Opera Singer, Baseball Fan, Beer Snob!
by Bryce Westervelt on Sep 23, 2011 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions
How about
Cliff Pennington at SS?
Pudge(RH platoon w/Jaso) or Olivo at C?
I like Ramon Hernandez, but I think I read he projects as a Type A
by Blue or CONKZILLA on Sep 24, 2011 8:47 AM EDT reply actions
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