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A Fan of Alex Cobb's Approach

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The Rays are apparently heading into the 2012 season with seven viable starting pitchers and an eight in top prospect Alex Torres. Having too many starting pitchers is kind of an oxy moron. There really is not such thing, right? And if having too many starting pitchers is a problem then it is one the Rays are happy to have.

There has been much speculation that the Rays would be dealing an arm for a bat but that has yet to happen. The front four of James Shields, David Price, Jeremy Hellickson, and Matt Moore is pretty much set in stone. That means the fight for that fifth starter's job comes down to Wade Davis, Jeff Niemann, Alex Cobb, and Alex Torres.

If the Rays go into the regular season having not dealt a starting arm then I feel same stating the front office will likely be sending Alex Torres and Alex Cobb to Triple-A and moving one of Wade Davis or Jeff Niemann to the bullpen.

While just about every team in the Majors would love to have Niemann or Davis as its fifth starter, the pitcher that I believe has the best approach, and also had the best groundball rate of any Rays pitcher with more than eight innings pitched, is Alex Cobb and he is likely going to start the year in Triple-A Durham.

Cobb may not have the best pure stuff of the four pitchers fighting for the fifth starter's job but he has a four pitch repertoire that includes a 4-seam fastball, 2-seam fastball, change-up, and curveball. His fastballs averaged just over 91 mph and his change-up was his main swing and miss pitch, getting whiffs nearly 17% of the time he threw it. But it's how he uses those pitches that really caught my eye. Take a look:

Star-divide

Here is his most used pitch, at 33.2% it is the 4-seam fastball:

Fa_vs_lh_medium Fa_vs_rh_medium

He seems to favor it up rather down in the zone. I found this odd until I dug a little deeper. He throws it more than any of his other pitches to start a hitter off, nearly 37% of the time, and also uses it just over 41% of the time on 0-2 pitches. He changes the eye level of the hitter with this pitch. He also uses it in traditional fastball counts like 1-0 and 2-0 to try and get a strike. Nothing wrong with that, but it seems its main use is to change the eye level of the hitter.

Now take a look at his change-up, which he uses the second most often at 29.7%:

Ch_vs_lh_medium Ch_vs_rh_medium

He throws it to the same spot: down and away to left handed hitters and down and in to right handed hitters. This is his predominant two-strike pitch outside of the 0-2 count. He uses it 45.5% of the time in 1-2 counts, 52.7% in 2-2 counts, and, I love this, 54.3% of the time in full counts. He never, and I mean never, uses the change-up inside on left handed hitters.

The pitch he uses second most to start a hitter off with is his curveball. Here are the heat maps:

Cu_vs_lh_medium Cu_vs_rh_medium

He throws the curveball 31.7% of the time to start a hitter off and uses the pitch mostly down and away to right handed hitters and as a backdoor curve to left handed hitters. A lot of the pitches up in the zone were ones thrown to start a hitter off.

And, lastly, his two-seam fastball:

Ft_vs_lh_medium Ft_vs_rh_medium

He does not favor it in any count but will use it in any count. As you can see, he tries to stay down and away to left handed hitters and does not really use it much against right handed hitters.

I don't know why but I always envisioned Cobb as a low-and-away guy with all of pitches that never thought of going up in the zone until I saw him pitch last year. It intrigued me how he could get away with his fastball up in the zone and, in all honesty, I thought he was just losing command of the pitch. That does not appear to be so, though.

Alex Cobb seems to have an idea of what he wants to do when a batter reaches the plate and seems to have a purpose for every pitch he throws. He also has age and six years of team control attached to him that make him very unlikely to be the one traded. And given his success last season, although in a small sample, I see a good chance that a trade occurs not only to add a bat but to free up a rotation spot so that he can be the team's fifth starter sooner rather than later.

Heat maps from Fangraphs and pitch selection and pitch count from Pitchf/x by Texas Leaguers.

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I can understand giving Cobb some time in AAA as he is recovering from surgery

But I think he’s much better than Davis or Niemann and maybe even better than Hellickson.

by Barnacles on Jan 13, 2012 10:11 AM EST reply actions  

Much better than any of them.

Not yet. Way too early to be saying that.

by Whelk on Jan 13, 2012 10:29 AM EST up reply actions  

I think he's riskier than Hellickson

But strikeouts + groundballs + limiting walks is a pretty serious package.

by Barnacles on Jan 13, 2012 10:57 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Cobb's surgery

Cobb will need some time in AAA for recovery to start the year. I had the same surgery for Thoracic outlet syndrome as Cobb had. After the removal of the 1st rib and re-attachment of muscle, Cobb must deal with numbness and muscles in the neck being as tight as a piano wire. Once back, he should have increased feel and strength as compared to when he went down last year.

Believe in the Fuld

by RayJzone on Jan 13, 2012 1:21 PM EST up reply actions  

thanks for the insight, it sucks that you had that experience but cool that you can relay to us what it will be like for him.

"I don't always post off-topic, but when I do, I post at http://ottotd.com" - $tinky $tu
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by pudieron89 on Jan 13, 2012 1:38 PM EST up reply actions  

I think he's a better pitcher-pitcher than Davis and maybe Niemann too. I don't think he's better than Hellickson though.

Give him a shot at the 5th spot. Trade Davis + spec for a 1B and move Niemann, whose arm is about to fall off, to the pen.

by mrTr0ut on Jan 13, 2012 10:16 AM EST reply actions  

I agree he is not better than Hellickson.

I have always thought Niemann would be great in the pen, a Joe Nathan lite, but he is starting to get expensive through arbitration and the time to trade him is now. I’d rather hold onto to Davis than Niemann.

by jcmitchell on Jan 13, 2012 10:24 AM EST up reply actions  

True

He is getting expensive and would probably bring in someone better than Davis could. At least right now. Davis does have the stuff to be a good pitcher.

by mrTr0ut on Jan 13, 2012 10:28 AM EST up reply actions  

I think he and Hellickson are long lost brothers

Deliveries, etc, are eerily similar

I'm not a fanboy, I'm an awesome dude

by Jason Collette on Jan 13, 2012 12:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Wade Davis has regressed for sure

His SO/BB in his ‘09 cameo was good, obviously, but even in 2010 it was higher than what Cobb’s was this year.

Vroom vroom party starter
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by Imperialism32 on Jan 13, 2012 10:24 AM EST reply actions  

It baffles me too.

He has such good stuff. I wish he’d let it loose more often rather than dialing it down and trying to get the pitch over.

by jcmitchell on Jan 13, 2012 10:27 AM EST up reply actions  

I dunno.

I’m starting to question how good his stuff is. His fastball is straight (despite stupid scouting reports which is just mroe proof that scouts really can’t tell fastball movement well at all). His curve hasn’t done much in the majors.

by mr. maniac on Jan 13, 2012 10:32 AM EST up reply actions  

I don't recall any scouting reports touting its movement

Just that he got a good downhill plane. I think the problem is he doesn’t get it down as much anymore, which would be consistent with how his GO/AO keeps dropping

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www.raysprospects.com

by Imperialism32 on Jan 13, 2012 10:38 AM EST up reply actions  

You are right. I didn't find any that mentioned movement.

But everyone said it was plus, only stating velocity. So obviosuly they didn’t think it was straight.

by mr. maniac on Jan 13, 2012 10:52 AM EST up reply actions  

It's consistent with how his strikeout numbers fell through the minors

I wonder if the stuff diminished or if it’s just that his location never improved, and he could get by in low-A but not as he rose up

Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com

by Imperialism32 on Jan 13, 2012 10:32 AM EST up reply actions  

HUGE Cobb fan...

Throws strikes, has a legit go to K pitch(CH), and gets results. Dont have the time, but would be curious to see his numbers if you exclude his 1st start(Tipping pitches) and last start(injury). Normally dont like parsing stats, but in those situations I feel it’s fair.
Big fan, and regardless of contracts would rather see Niemann or Davis moved.

by td32 on Jan 13, 2012 11:32 AM EST reply actions  

The Rays have 9 SP that probably would all be in a MLB rotation

if they weren’t on the same club

Price, Hellicksond, Shields, Moore, Davis, Niemann, Torres, Cobb and Archer

follow me on twitter @sternfan10

by sternfan1 on Jan 13, 2012 11:34 AM EST reply actions  

Nice look.

I wonder if he has the success with his split change (which not everyone thought he would, coming out of the minors) because he throws it both below the zone and in the zone. People often talk about how you need to throw pitches like that out of the zone for them to work, but from your graphs, it looks like he does about equal parts of both.

by Whelk on Jan 13, 2012 12:08 PM EST reply actions  

Whelk.

I have come upon a theory that scouts can only partially grade a pitchers movement on their fastball, and that PitchFX proves this. If it is found true, statistics will prove to have a much greater value in the minors and reasons why guys can’t get Ks would be explainable.

In order to conduct something like this, I’m going to need to understand fastball movement via Pitch FX. Maybe you could show me a good link or offer up some adive on how to judge fastball movement.

Thanks.

by mr. maniac on Jan 13, 2012 12:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, that's pretty tough.

Mostly, I think, it’s just about being different than the norm. Mo’s cutter has very little run, but it’s different than the average fastball, which has 6-8 inches or so, so it’s tough for hitters. On the other side, you have guys like Lincecum with run and rise well over 10 inches, which also do really well.

I’ll see if I can find something longer about it, but here’s the answer from Lucas Apostoleris and Josh Weinstock (question two). http://www.yankeeanalysts.com/2011/08/ask-the-experts-lucas-apostoleris-and-josh-weinstock-answer-our-pitchfx-questions-33828

by Whelk on Jan 13, 2012 12:47 PM EST up reply actions  

factoid

Mo wasn’t even considered a top 10 prospect in the Gulf Coast League when he pitched in it in 1990

His numbers:

52 IP
17 hits
1 ER
7 BB
58 K’s

I'm not a fanboy, I'm an awesome dude

by Jason Collette on Jan 13, 2012 12:52 PM EST up reply actions  

The best rotation IMO is Price, Shields, Helly, Moore and Cobb

But they aren’t getting rid of Davis AND Neimann. Maybe if one was traded and the other gets hurt.

Matt Moore. That is all.

by joeybw on Jan 13, 2012 12:22 PM EST reply actions  

Frieds should have traded him to the Cubs for Starlin when he had the chance

October 28th, 2011-- a date which will live in infamy--

OTTOTD.com

by Sveet on Jan 13, 2012 12:35 PM EST reply actions  

Heh, the joke may be old but this is funny because

of how perfect his personal live would fit in with our other off season acquisitions. Sexual Assault and all, come to Tampa!

Matt Moore. That is all.

by joeybw on Jan 13, 2012 1:01 PM EST up reply actions  

personal live? get out joey.

"I don't always post off-topic, but when I do, I post at http://ottotd.com" - $tinky $tu
"Please break your typewriter and computer and never come out of your ass cave again"

by pudieron89 on Jan 13, 2012 1:39 PM EST up reply actions  

i dont think anyone has really touched on this yet,

but the really cool thing about these charts is how he attacks the batter’s perception of the pitch. assuming his FB has some “rise” then when it is up in the zone it looks thigh high on release. his CBs down and away to righties look thigh-high when released. his changes down in or out of the zone look thigh-high when released. same with the 2-seemer. so he has one pitch that looks thigh-high that ends up at their chest with neutral movement, and thre pitches that look thigh-high that end up at their shins or lower each breaking a different direction. the beauty of it is that as such, he mixes the three with the same downward movement for nearlt 2/3 of his pitches and keeps them off the 4 seem. that’s how he gets so many grounders.

by rglass44 on Jan 13, 2012 1:32 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

Montero for Pineda sounds like it just happened.

ughhhhhhh

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by SandalsNoPants on Jan 13, 2012 7:49 PM EST reply actions  

Crap.

And there is no big competition for Fielder, till now.

by mr. maniac on Jan 13, 2012 7:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Wow

I’m shocked to see the Yanks even trade Montero

This meme definitely has a shelf life to it

by Jason Collette on Dec 29, 2011 11:31 AM EST upreplyactions

So do you.

BOOM. ROASTED!

by SandalsNoPants on Dec 29, 2011 11:32 AM EST upreply Rec Flag

by sc_monsta1015 on Jan 13, 2012 8:02 PM EST up reply actions  

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