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Around SBN: Chan Sung Jung Wins Thriller Over Dustin Poirier

Projecting the 2012 Rays


Fantastic work by Mr. Maniac. This is going to be one heck of an exciting team. ~Slow

With many projections starting to float out there, I decided to post an in-depth projection for the 2012 Rays. My goal is to provide reasonable statistics for every position. Because of this, break outs and "down years" are not included. Every player's statistics were carefully regressed. While regressed is commonly defined and used as a word for "taking a step back," regressed also means, as is the case in this post, to return to a prior state.

This post should also, hopefully, dispel the rumors that the Rays rotation is "much better" than the Yankees' or that the Ray's positional players are much worse, if at all (and if not better), than the Yanks.

I am using a WAR spreadsheet that can be found here: http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2011/11/12/2557029/updated-team-war-spreadsheet

By adding the team's WAR, the amount of wins a player(s) would achieve more than a replacement level player over 162 games, tothe amount of games a replacement level team (0 WAR or bad players) would win (43 in this case), a strong idea of the 2012's team talent can be gained. In the past four years in the AL East, the WAR and win numbers have correlated to the 99th percentile.

Note: The numbers are not park neutralized. Since half the games are played in "The Dome," pitching statistics are better than they really are while hitter's statistics unfairly demote the hitter's true performance.

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1. Catcher (2.5 WAR)

Jose Molina: 300 PA, .280 wOBA, 1.5 Fld, .9 WAR
Jose Lobaton: 150 PA, .290 wOBA, 1 Fld, .5 WAR
Robinson Chirinos: 250 PA, .325 wOBA, -.3 Fld, 1.1 WAR

Molina is projected to have the most plate appearances. Despite his superb defense, he won't get a starter's share of the playing time due to a poor bat and his age. Lobaton's strong defense but mediocre bat won't give him much time on the field. Chrinos' average bat could be a welcome sign, allowing him to rack in 250 PA despite starting the year donning the uniform of the Durham Bulls. His fielding should have improved from last year, specifically his release which allowed base-runners to run freely while he was catching. His Milb wOBAs seem to indicate that a return to his normal hitting form is on the way in 2012.

2. First Base (1.3 WAR)

Filler: 550 PA, .335 wOBA, 1.2 WAR
Reserves: 150 PA, .320 wOBA, .1 WAR

As of right now, the Rays seemingly don't have 2012's first baseman. While Scott and Joyce are possibilities, it is likely that the Ray's acquire a first baseman from outside the organization. I assigned a league average hitter at first base with no fielding or base-running attributes. It is highly likely the Rays will get better production from first base; however, with the lack of the current player on the roster, the projections should be extremely pessimistic. The reserves will be made up from other players which could include Luke Scott, Matt Joyce, Russ Canzler, and Sean Rodriguez. With these players manning the reserve at bats, the projections are, once again, negative.

3. Second Base (5.3 WAR)

Ben Zobrist: 650 PA, .350 wOBA, .3 BR, 1.2 Fld, 5.1 WAR
Reserves: 50 PA, .320 wOBA, .15 BR, .9 Fld, .2 WAR

This year, Ben Zobrist should become a full-time player at one position with Matt Joyce and Brandon Guyer establishing themselves in RF. Zobrist has had at least 650 PA in the past two years (his first two years playing full-time), so the 650 plate appearances projectionseems fair. Zobrist had a down year hitting in 2010 (.323 wOBA, 103 wRC+). However, his 2009 was incredible and his 2011 season was also very good. His projected .350 wOBA is a drop-off from his past year's production, but it still remains excellent. His BR numbers listed are in line with his career numbers, and the fielding numbers, which are terrific, actually cut him short. However, it is better to be pessimistic than optimistic in projections. His WAR would drop from last year's 6.6 figure. The reserves would be made up by a collection of players who should feature strong defense (Sean Rodriguez, Reid Brignac, Tim Beckham, etc..) but lack a potent bat. The contributions from the group are understandably small.

4. Shortstop (1.4 WAR)

Reid Brignac: 275 PA, .280 wOBA, .4 Fld, .2 WAR
Sean Rodriguez: 375 PA, .300 wOBA, .3 Fld, 1 WAR
Tim Beckham: 50 PA, .325 wOBA, -.5 Fld, .2 WAR

This is where is starts to get ugly. Despite mis-guided assumptions that the SS position simply "has to get better," there is no apparent floor for these players. Brignac and Rodriguez both should hit poorly while providing solid, above-average defense (Rodriguez, with more time, will get better defensively). Tim Beckham could even get his shot, hitting better than the bat-less duo but being mediocre defensively.

5. Third Base (7.2 WAR)

Evan Longoria: 650 PA, .385 wOBA, 1.3 Fld, 7 WAR
Reserves: 50 PA, .320 wOBA, .8 Fld, .2 WAR

The anchor for the Rays here is Evan Longoria. Instead of babbling on about his superb defense or his solid base-running, I'll move on to the hitting. Last year, Evan managed a .365 wOBA while struggling through injuries and BABIP issues. With his hot second half and his entrance into his prime baseball years, Longoria seems to be a reasonable bet to post his best hitting year yet (although not by much). The reserves should be a light-hitting bunch who provide good fielding (Rodriguez, Zobrist, etc..). I understand it is Evan's goal to play 162 games, yet injuries have consistently stopped him short of that desirable outcome. Why projectanything different to happen in 2012 regarding that?

6. Left Field (4.6 WAR)

Desmond Jennings: 630 PA, .345 wOBA, .4 BR, 1.6 Fld, 4.2 WAR
Reserves: 70 PA, .335 wOBA, .3 BR, 1.5 Fld, .4 WAR

Desmond Jennings arriving to the scene has been a long awaited occurrence. He probably won't hit as well as he did in his short callup last year, but his bat should still be a positive force. Jennings has transformed a bit as a player, showing more (and sustainable) power in exchange for a lower batting average and a higher K rate. On a side note, I found myself looking at Crawford's defensive and base-running numbers as a comparison and reference for Jennings. The reserves are able to hit solidly due to the Rays match-up abilities (Fuld and Guyer), filling in for Desmond when he makes his annual trip to the DL.

7. Center Field (3.9 WAR)

BJ Upton: 630 PA, .340 wOBA, .3 Fld, 3.5 WAR
Reserves: 70 PA, .335 wOBA, .25 Fld, .4 WAR

BJ Upton, barring a trade, will start the year off as the Ray's CF. Upton has asserted himself as one of the top center fielders, providing power and solid defense in CF. Despite this, his fielding does not appear to be what it has been made out to be, nor is his base-running. Despite not having many injuries, Upton has failed to rack in a high total of plate appearances on a yearly basis.The reserves (Fuld and Guyer) shouldprovide solid defense with an average bat, a testimony of the Ray'sremarkable depth.

8. Right Field (3.7 WAR)

Matt Joyce: 530 PA, .360 wOBA, .15 Fld, 2.8 WAR
Reserves: 170 PA, .345 wOBA, 1.2 Fld, .9 WAR

There is the possibility Matt Joyce could break out against lefties and receive 650 PAs. As of now, I'm going to bet against that and assume that Joyce will have practically the same season as he did last year (a quick reminder to the observant reader: Joyce's WAR was higher last year because WAR is park adjusted. In these projections, it is not. So discount pitchers and lighten up on the hitters). The reserves, mainly Brandon Guyer, should get a large portion of the left handers, providing an optimal platoon situation.

9. Designated Hitter

Luke Scott: 520 PA, .355 wOBA, 1.4 WAR
Reserves: 180 PA, .335 wOBA, .2 WAR

Luke Scott enters the year as the Ray's DH. From 2008-2010 in Baltimore, Scott went on a nice little run, raising his walk rate and his power each year while maintaining his strikeoutrate. Unfortunately, an injury has set all of this back a bit. Despite this, Scott should still be an above average hitter. The reserves should be players more in the Joyce or Canzler mold than the Rodriguez or Brignac mold, giving the Rays more offense.

The Ray's Total Positional Player WAR is 31.6 WAR. Last year, the Ray's positional player WAR (park adjusted) was 31.6.

Now, before I move on to the pitchers side, I want to clarify a few things. The Rays actual positional player WAR, if my projections prove to be accurate, should be quite higher than 31.6. This is due to Tropicana Field. A significant portion of WAR is based on hitting. WAR uses park neutralized stats while the spreadsheet I am using uses wOBA, which is certainly not neutralized.

After going through some rough calculations on the Trop's affect, I have calculated the wOBA's of the players if they played in a nuetral park.*** After inserting these numbers, it appears that the Ray's Positional player WAR will be 36.9 (!). That would have been 3rd last year (slightly behind Texas and behind Boston).

A quick note on the pitching: I am using an ERA/FIP hybird. FIP nuetralizes ballparks, which is not my goal. However, ERA accounts defense, which I already accounted for in my positional player projections. So I'll go in between the two numbers, acknowledging the Trop yet eliminating defensive affects.

Starting Pitching (16.2 WAR)

David Price: 230 IP, 3.35 ERA/FIP, 4.8 WAR
James Shields: 230 IP, 3.52 ERA/FIP, 4.2 WAR
Jeremy Hellickson: 200 IP, 3.90 ERA/FIP, 2.6 WAR
Jeff Niemann: 155 IP, 4.10 ERA/FIP, 1.6 WAR
Matt Moore: 185 IP, 3.85 ERA/FIP, 2.5 WAR
Alex Cobb: 50 IP, 4.10 ERA/FIP, .5 WAR

David Price encountered some poor luck last year, having an ERA higher than his FIP despite pitching in the Trop and having some excellent defense behind him. Even though his FIPfigures to rise some (career low last year), his ERA should go down with better luck. Shields, on the other hand, should see both his FIP and his ERA go up due to a heavy workload and regression. His status as an excellent pitcher should go unchanged, though. Jeremy Hellickson is due for some big-time ERA regression (not the good type). However, I think the number will be satisfactory despite this, given Hellickson's superb minor league track record. Niemann should continue to be bothered by injuries but provides good value for being the team's worst starter. Rounding out the top 5 is Moore, who I think is in line for a good but not phenomenal year. We have to pessimistic, right? 2.5WAR is obviously pessimistic..... Alex Cobb should fill in for Niemann or any other minor injuries. A 16.2 WAR would have ranked 6th in the AL last year. Last year, the Rays ranked 8th (13.8).

Relief Pitching (2.7 WAR)

Kyle Farnsworth: 55 IP, 3.32 ERA, .1.1 WAR
Joel Peralta: 60 IP, 3.45 ERA, .7 WAR
Jake McGee: 65 IP, 3.45 ERA, .6 WAR
Burke Badenhop: 65 IP, 3.75 ERA, .3 WAR
JP Howell: 45 IP, 3.88 ERA, .1 WAR
Brandon Gomes: 50 IP, 4.00 ERA, .1 WAR
Fernando Rodney: 50 IP, 4.70 ERA, -.2 WAR

Since I projected the starters to go for the same innings totals as last year, I am projecting the relievers to do the same. Farnsworth and Peralta are bothdue for regression and less innings; however, they should be a solid closer/setup duo. Rounding out the top 3 is McGee, the most optimistic projection in this whole post. There is reason to be optimistic for McGee though, due to his blazing fastball, improving command, and workhouse capabilities. Badenhop should actually pitch better in the AL East in terms of ERA while those familiar with FIP will notice regression. In Howell, the Rays should find a good loogy who can also begin to challenge right handed hitters. Improvement through the course of the year is expected from Howell. Gomes addsanother solid reliever while Rodney, even withhis blistering fastball and awe-worthy change-up, should provide minimal, if not negative, value. Hopefully the Rays can prove me wrong in Rodney's case. Overall, the bullpen should be much better than last year's group due to a more stable core. A 2.7 WAR would have been 8th in the AL last year. Last year, the Ray's ranked 13th (.7 WAR).

In my total projections, the Rays are projected to win 94 games. Park adjusted, the positional players are projected to be worth 36.9 WAR and the pitchers are projected to be worth 13.8 WAR.

And now for the Cliff Notes section.....

1. The Rays have a very strong lineup (positional players). Perhaps it isn't Boston's quality (or Texas'), but the Ray's shouldbe every bit as good as the Yankees despite popular beliefs otherwise. The gains should mainly come from the DH position, third base, and catcher.

2. The Rays pitching should be good as well. While the Rays have had the reputation as a pitching team, Tropicana filed and the Ray's fabulous defense have had more to do with this than anything.

3. The Rays are a good team. I don't think anyone would project the same value from every spot as I did. However, I honestly don't feel that these projections are too optimistic. A few injuries could bump down the wins total, but the Ray's tremendous depth (in both hitting and pitching) should prevent a major slide.

4. It is my greatest wish that everyone reads these projections and thinks over them with an open mind. Hopefully this can make the front page so numerous fans can read this.

*** To calculate the Trop's affect, I went through various numbers including the Ray's pitching numbers at home and on the road and also the Ray's hitting numbers at home and on the road. Through many difficult calculations, I came upon a number that satisfied me: 1.06. That is the amount better a hitter hits away from the Trop than at the Trop. I was able to find the adjusted wOBA numbers by inserting my projected combined numbers (as in 50% at the Trop, 50% on the road) and coming up with the following formula: wOBA on the road is equivalent to 171.72 multiplied by the combined wOBA and divided by 166.86.

This post was written by a member of the DRaysBay community and does not necessarily express the views or opinions of DRaysBay staff.

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Pretty nice

I do think Upton will be more valuable though. Nothing personal to him but I think he will do better playing for a contract.

Matt Moore. That is all.

by joeybw on Jan 17, 2012 5:12 PM EST reply actions  

I agree with most besides the using ERA since it will double count the defensive contributions.

Subtracting the 5-6 WAR or so would get your team to the high 90s which i think is definitely possible. Something like 95-98 wins is my expectation right now with a decent pickup for 1B.

by jtmorgan on Jan 17, 2012 5:41 PM EST reply actions  

This is a good point

User FIP or xFIP instead. Although that’s a modest Matt Moore projection. I think you’re more optimistic on him than you’re letting on. :)

by Ben Tumbling on Jan 17, 2012 5:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Good job

Can you double check some of the fielding win values for the reserves? Some look inflated — like for LF (1.5 wins for 70 PA) and 3B (.8 wins for 50 PA). It might be that those values are per 700 PA, or maybe I’m understanding it wrong.

by Ben Tumbling on Jan 17, 2012 5:47 PM EST reply actions  

Fixed!

102 wins without much of a 1B is very good. Do you guys see anyplace where I am too optimistic?

by mr. maniac on Jan 17, 2012 6:22 PM EST reply actions  

Well, the pitchers for one.

Last year, we got .7 WAR from our RPs, so you are bumping them up a ton with out us adding any elite arms. Similarly, you are projecting a gain of 10 pitching wins from the starters. That’s a huge gain especially considering there’s been only 3 teams to put up that figure since 2000. That would be an incredibly awesome pitching season for our guys.

Apart from that, catcher looks high, Longo looks high, Jennings looks high, and maybe a few others.

by rglass44 on Jan 17, 2012 6:51 PM EST up reply actions  

LF is only a little higher than what it was last year.

Longo is a little higher or in line with 2009-2010.

There is something wrong with the pitchers WAR in the spreadsheet. I can’t figure it out.

by mr. maniac on Jan 17, 2012 9:29 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm blanking out -- is FIP park-adjusted?

It seems like you can get the WAR values in line with Fangraphs’ by changing the ERA_lg (cell R28) from 4.30 to 3.80 for the Rays pitchers.

by Ben Tumbling on Jan 17, 2012 10:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Thank you!

And yes, FIP is park adjusted since Ks and BBs don’t change from park to park. THe HRs present a problem though.

However, you could say that xFIP is park adjusted, but I don’t like modifying the number the 10%.

by mr. maniac on Jan 17, 2012 10:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Anything higher would be very hard to see projected just based upon potential injuries.

It really wouldn’t surprise me to have Longo post higher than a 7, but when considering injuries that seems fair.

by jtmorgan on Jan 18, 2012 10:23 AM EST up reply actions  

I changed it all up.

The spreadsheet itself was messed up.

What do you think of the new ones?

by mr. maniac on Jan 18, 2012 10:32 AM EST up reply actions  

ohhh ok.

your pitching ones are almost exactly what i got. i have 16.2 SP WAR and 2.8 RP WAR. I changd ERA to 4.08 (AL LA last year) and wOBA to .320 (AL LA last year).

I’m going to upload pics of mine here in a sec.

by rglass44 on Jan 18, 2012 11:23 AM EST up reply actions  

Wowzers.

When I changed that, the ERA/FIP stuff blew up again. The team went to a 121 WIN team.

I’m going to keep the current numbers because it correlates well to Fangraph’s WAR.

by mr. maniac on Jan 18, 2012 11:28 AM EST up reply actions  

Nevermind.

I typed it into the wrong stuff. I’ve gotten a 104 win talent team now with the 2011 league averages in.

by mr. maniac on Jan 18, 2012 11:30 AM EST up reply actions  

Chirinos is optimistic, imo.

Also, Shields and Price. And the whole bullpen.

Joyce and Rodriguez seem pessimistic, though.

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by SandalsNoPants on Jan 17, 2012 7:34 PM EST up reply actions  

+1

Chirinos is 1.1 WAR all by himself, and I think this could very easily be a 0.

by AndrewTorrez on Jan 17, 2012 9:53 PM EST up reply actions  

0 was the exact number that popped into my head.

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by SandalsNoPants on Jan 18, 2012 7:14 AM EST up reply actions  

I like Chirinos.

I really think he can be an average bat, and I did put his defense down as a negative.

by mr. maniac on Jan 17, 2012 10:31 PM EST up reply actions  

you can't really predict injuries, but point taken. this is a best-case-scenario i suppose.

could shave 10% more off everyone’s PAs and give more to bench/AAA, but that would be more of a team-as-a-whole projection, whereas it seems MR mr. maniac is projecting each player individually. i don’t agree with the total, it is optimistic, but no one expects their team to get through the year without injuries.

"I don't always post off-topic, but when I do, I post at http://ottotd.com" - $tinky $tu
"Please break your typewriter and computer and never come out of your ass cave again"

by pudieron89 on Jan 17, 2012 10:38 PM EST up reply actions  

What injuries do you see happening?

The Rays haven’t had a “big injury” over the past two years, unless you put Longo in that catergory. I shaved time off for Longo’s DL trip, for an Upton injury, for a Jennings injury, for Niemann’s injury, for Farnsworth injury, and for Scott’s injury.

That is 6 starters that I put out there for injury time. I didn’t make way for a 60 day DL, but the Rays are a team that hasn’t had that issue much.

by mr. maniac on Jan 18, 2012 8:42 AM EST up reply actions  

that's my point, i'm agreeing with you. it makes sense to project each player for what they'd do in a healthy season because you can't predict injuries

however, i’d be reticent about projecting the team’s wins based on this, because even players with clean bills of health can have freak injuries, like squirting sunscreen in your eye or tripping down the steps to the clubhouse. that’s why you have the standard +/- 5 wins on every projection.

"I don't always post off-topic, but when I do, I post at http://ottotd.com" - $tinky $tu
"Please break your typewriter and computer and never come out of your ass cave again"

by pudieron89 on Jan 18, 2012 9:12 AM EST up reply actions  

that's how projections work. you weigh each and every likelihood and assign it a value.

it isn’t just “this is what he’s done every year.” you regress to LA (both good and bad), you factor the likelihood of injury, you weigh recent numbers more than past ones, etc. that’s why fan projections are always sunnier than computer systems, and why on the whole computer systems beat the fan projections.

by rglass44 on Jan 18, 2012 10:15 AM EST up reply actions  

What pudieron89 and I are saying is that the projections were brought down some in case of injuries (look no further than the PA).

However, predicting a major injury is just something that can’t be done. And besides for Longo’s month injury, the Rays haven’t had a really significant injury.

by mr. maniac on Jan 18, 2012 10:51 AM EST up reply actions  

my suggestion

You don’t predict major injuries, but you predict the chance of a major injury. Maybe this is true:

Miss 5 games: 50%
Miss 20 games: 20%
Miss 40 games: 20%
Miss 100 games: 10%

The weighted average is missing 25 games.

(Or whatever, numbers for illustration only.)

If you wanted to do an empirical test, find everyone who had 650-700 PAs in a season and then see how many PAs they had the next year. My guess is about 600. 600-650 might be around 550.

One other comment is a small amount of optimism across the board really adds up at a team level. So 40 extra PAs, 20 extra IPs, .05 points of wOBA, and .20 points of ERA might chop a dozen wins off the total.

In general, really enjoyed this, so thanks for doing it.

by Sky Kalkman on Jan 18, 2012 1:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Very nice work.

If we can grab a good 1B, a 100+ win season is not out of the question. Without our unbelievable depth, I see the team as more of a 90 win team. Just an amazing team to watch, and it’s great to see a few new prospects each year who can contribute.

This meme definitely has a shelf life to it

by Jason Collette on Dec 29, 2011 11:31 AM EST upreplyactions

So do you.

BOOM. ROASTED!

by SandalsNoPants on Dec 29, 2011 11:32 AM EST upreply Rec Flag

by sc_monsta1015 on Jan 17, 2012 8:27 PM EST reply actions  

It appears that there are several questions regarding the pitchers.

I honestly don’t know what to make of it. I had Shields regress, but his WAR actually got better.

In my defense of the bullpen, the Rays had pitchers like Sonny, Buente, Ramos, etc.. all int he pen last year. Is there a specific projection out of the relievers that you don’t like?

by mr. maniac on Jan 17, 2012 9:31 PM EST reply actions  

not any individual projection

but it seems likely that in a group that includes a bunch of average arms (Howell, Badenhop, Rodney), you’re going to have at least one explosion particularly over a sample size of 50 innings or so. This isn’t to say that those players don’t have their uses; they do, and I’m confident that Maddon will use them properly. It’s just that relievers are combustible. Someone’s going to go south and a realistic conservative projection should take that into account.

The rotation is pretty amazing. I don’t think Jamie Shields is going to put up a 5.6 WAR this year, but I think you’re possibly underselling Hellickson and Moore, so it probably washes out.

Still, this is pretty darn encouraging.

by AndrewTorrez on Jan 17, 2012 10:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Yup

Every year, fans will always do the “X and Y combined for 5.60 ERA in 140 IP last season. Replace those innings with a league average starter and that’s 3 wins right there.”

But it seems like the following season, someone else will be the source of implosion. That 5.60 ERA is just passed around to someone else.

Of course, that’s anecdotal.

by Ben Tumbling on Jan 17, 2012 10:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Like you said, I tried to make conservative projections.

Rodney at 0 WAR seems in line with his averages.
Farnsworth and Peralta are both in line.
McGee would be an improvement, but not a drastic one.
I sold Badenhop a little short in this.
I made GOmes pretty mediocre.

There is a chance someone blows up, but the Rays then have Bush, Lueke, Fleming, etc. in Durham. And, in projections, I should expect a blowup.

by mr. maniac on Jan 17, 2012 10:09 PM EST up reply actions  

btw

this should totally be frontpaged

by AndrewTorrez on Jan 17, 2012 10:02 PM EST reply actions  

Whoops...yeah, I totally missed this.

Busy day yesterday, and I think I mistook it for part of the prospect runoff series. Well done…great work man.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.

by Steve Slowinski on Jan 18, 2012 11:25 AM EST up reply actions  

Anytime, great work deserves to be recognized.

This makes me incredibly excited for this season.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.

by Steve Slowinski on Jan 18, 2012 11:49 AM EST up reply actions  

Yeah.

The Rays get criminally underrated and mis-recognized it appears. While they have some good pitching, it is the posistional players that are the better part.

by mr. maniac on Jan 18, 2012 11:50 AM EST up reply actions  

That's definitely what this is pointing out to me.

I knew the Rays would be good this season, but these projections make them look even better than I expected. And I can’t find much fault with the #s you and Glass are using.

This seems to pass the gut test too. The Rays were a 87-ish win team at the beginning of 2011, and they’ve only improved from there by adding DJ, Moore, and Scott, and by continued growth from players like Joyce and Shields. Pretty sick.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.

by Steve Slowinski on Jan 18, 2012 11:56 AM EST up reply actions  

Okay you guys, I made a few changes.

To fix the pitchers WAR, I inserted different numbers into the level part. By typing in .76 for Price and Shields, I was able to get the right WAR numbers. The number to type in varied, so I found comparable players and tried to match it.

by mr. maniac on Jan 17, 2012 10:15 PM EST reply actions  

Okay, now you can criticize me for being non-optimistic with the pitchers projections.

Turns out it wasn’t my numbers fault but the league averages.

So, I would project the Rays to win somewhere in the 94-97 range.

by mr. maniac on Jan 17, 2012 10:30 PM EST reply actions  

Seems correct.

My projections have 95-98 with a decent 1B pickup.

by jtmorgan on Jan 17, 2012 11:15 PM EST up reply actions  

.

October 28th, 2011-- a date which will live in infamy--

OTTOTD.com

by Sveet on Jan 18, 2012 10:24 AM EST up reply actions  

lol

i was going to tweet at you about it, but i wasnt sure what your tweet name was. he’s shocked me so far.

by rglass44 on Jan 18, 2012 10:40 AM EST up reply actions  

I'll email it to aryan

October 28th, 2011-- a date which will live in infamy--

OTTOTD.com

by Sveet on Jan 18, 2012 10:49 AM EST up reply actions  

Anything to back up this claim?
The Rays have a very good lineup. Perhaps it isn’t Boston’s quality (or Texas’), but the Ray’s should be every bit as good as the Yankees despite popular beliefs otherwise

October 28th, 2011-- a date which will live in infamy--

OTTOTD.com

by Sveet on Jan 18, 2012 10:24 AM EST reply actions  

but WAR includes defense

I thought the argument was that offensively they were equal

October 28th, 2011-- a date which will live in infamy--

OTTOTD.com

by Sveet on Jan 18, 2012 10:42 AM EST up reply actions  

Correct.

The wRC+ totals should also be very close.

by mr. maniac on Jan 18, 2012 10:52 AM EST up reply actions  

So you are saying the offenses are similar?

Maybe you are right, but I have a hard time believe it. Do you have the wRC+ totals?

October 28th, 2011-- a date which will live in infamy--

OTTOTD.com

by Sveet on Jan 18, 2012 2:17 PM EST up reply actions  

I can figure out the Rays wOBA with a nuetral park in 2011.

But I can’t do the Yanks and I can’t compare wOBA and wRC+.

The numbers should be close though.

by mr. maniac on Jan 18, 2012 2:25 PM EST up reply actions  

I actually think you are under-rating the bullpen a bit

I think we will have one of the best bullpens in baseball this year. I think Gomes, Mcgee, Farnsworth, Peralta, and Howell will all have good years and anything out of Badenhop, Rodney, Lueke, Davis/Torres, Bush will just be a bonus.

by Dbullsfan on Jan 18, 2012 10:49 AM EST reply actions  

Fair enough.

I just can’t throw out a 1 WAR year from Gomes because relievers are highly suspect to off years. By keeping the numbers low, it makes it more realistic.

by mr. maniac on Jan 18, 2012 10:53 AM EST up reply actions  

yeah, I like the way you've done it

I do think Gomes and McGee could be monsters this year, though.

by AndrewTorrez on Jan 18, 2012 10:55 AM EST up reply actions  

yea I don't blame you one bit for it

and maybe it is the fan in me, but I think that going into the season this is possibly the best pen the franchise has ever had. We have ridiculous depth when you think that Lueke, Bush, and Torres all could start the season in AAA and on almost every other team in baseball those guys would be at worst the last guy out of the pen.

by Dbullsfan on Jan 18, 2012 11:09 AM EST up reply actions  

50% chance of being over 91 wins

That roughly equates to projecting us as a 91-win team, right? Sorry, I don’t know the WAR to Team Record conversion

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by Imperialism32 on Jan 18, 2012 11:46 AM EST up reply actions  

Damn, impressive.

Some of those numbers seem quite conservative, too…I think there is definitely a case to be made that the WAR totals for Longo, Zo, Price, and a few others could be higher. But if that still projects as a 91 win team, heck yeah.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.

by Steve Slowinski on Jan 18, 2012 11:52 AM EST up reply actions  

Good job

Though I think you were conservative in some places like the defensive values. In 2011, the team was almost 0.7 wins per 700 PA, if my calculation is correct. You only have them at 0.45 in your sheet.

I can quibble as well with the very conservative innings totals for our better starting pitchers. But with the fragile nature of pitcher health, you could very well be accurate.

Do you have time to do the Red Sox? I am most curious about them.

by Ben Tumbling on Jan 18, 2012 12:00 PM EST up reply actions  

defensive values are very, very hard to gauge and thus very prone to change quite a bit.

like i said above, (this relates to both the starting pitching and the defense) we don’t know who will get hurt, so we have to assume there’s a chance everyone does. it’s like using expected value to take a guess at how good a player will be. there’s a 90% chance he pitches 200 innings, and theres a 10% chance he pitches 0. that would give you an EV of 180 IP. that’s how i tend to look at it. defense is similar in that we dont know how much of past performance is noise and how much is skill. as such, i assume there arent really any +1 Win SS or +1.5 win OF. regress to the mean.

by rglass44 on Jan 18, 2012 12:26 PM EST up reply actions  

i really spitballed on the wOBA/FIPs because i didnt have time to do a decent MARCEL on them.

i basically looked at what they did there last 3 years, weighed recent performance most heavily in my mind, and did a slight trend based on age (i.e. under <27 increase slightly, 28-30 hold, >31 decrease slightly). i could see pretty much anyone outperforming their number here by a bit. some guys i really expect to are longo, s-rod, upton, and joyce.

by rglass44 on Jan 18, 2012 12:29 PM EST up reply actions  

am i reading this wrong or do u have EJ getting 250 PA

I’m a big fan of him making the team but no way he should play that much

by Dbullsfan on Jan 18, 2012 1:21 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

He serves as RL UTIL IF soaking up the ABs of injured guys.

He had 181 PAs last year, so I wouldn’t be that surprised if he (or another RL IF gets those PAs).

by rglass44 on Jan 18, 2012 1:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Something has to give with the Rays starting pitching.

I was forced to assume that Davis was traded. If Davis was on the team, I would expect a 175 IP, 4.75 FIP/ERA, and a .5 WAR.

by mr. maniac on Jan 18, 2012 12:09 PM EST up reply actions  

I think Neimann is better trade bait

They long termed Wade and I doubt they want to trade that. Meanwhile, they couldn’t even agree on a 1 year deal to avoid arby with Neimann. Also, they both have an injury past but Wade misses like 2 weeks while Neimann officially misses a month or 2 but makes some starts where you know he’s injured. Trade him before he has a seriously injury and loses any value.

Matt Moore. That is all.

by joeybw on Jan 18, 2012 1:12 PM EST up reply actions  

It doesn't matter that Daivs is signed long term if he sucks.

Hopefully the Rays realize that he is only riding his prospect rankings at this point and that another bad year would be the end of his value.

by mr. maniac on Jan 18, 2012 1:17 PM EST up reply actions  

SSS alert but he's looked good in the playoffs also

And that CG against the Sox in September? He handles pressure and you can’t count on Neimann for big games because he’s probably hurt. Truth be told, I wish Cobb got the job over both of them but everyone knows he isn’t making the rotation barring a trade and an injury.

Matt Moore. That is all.

by joeybw on Jan 18, 2012 1:26 PM EST up reply actions  

S rod and bullpen

I think s rod is being discounted. I see a 250fat 15 hr 15 sb season if he is the opening day starter. The bullpen needs a long reliever unless u think that is Gomes’ role I think that is where Davis will be barring a trade

by gatrmf on Jan 18, 2012 1:57 PM EST via mobile reply actions  

Gomes and Rodney would be in long reliever situations with Gomes getting more opportunities at medium leverage ones.

While I would love to project a Rays player to break out, it would take away quite a bit of the legitimacy of the projections as they would probably be too high. I do hope he has the year you mentioned though.

by mr. maniac on Jan 18, 2012 2:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Ramos and Badenhop (the long reliever btw) are both out of options

So we will already risk losing one guy because of…..Fernando Rodney. I know we still have 6 guys that should be in the rotation at the moment but I have to believe a trade is coming because I doubt we break camp with a 6 man rotation and I really doubt with the Rays work that we will risk losing 2 relievers by waiving them.

Matt Moore. That is all.

by joeybw on Jan 18, 2012 2:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Ramos blows

He better not make the team. I don’t have the stats to back it, but that’s my take on him.

by Dome Biscuit on Jan 18, 2012 2:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Badenhop will win that battle but it still leaves the matter of the 6 man rotation

However, Badenhop who has been a spot starter in his career is the long reliever on this team.

Matt Moore. That is all.

by joeybw on Jan 18, 2012 2:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Agreed

Prolly a groundball guy and if Bases are juiced with 5 man infield

by Dome Biscuit on Jan 18, 2012 2:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Ramos is really mediocre.

And why in the world would Badenhop be the long reliever?

On a side note, I couldn’t help but laugh at Cork’s projections. They are always so far off (getting rid of Badenhop, really?) that they are pretty funny.

by mr. maniac on Jan 18, 2012 3:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Because that's always been his role

And he always has a good 3 innings in that arm. Not to mention, we certainly don’t have a spot for a guy like Torres at this point. Doesn’t hurt to have a guy eat innings while being able to shut down the team, either.

Matt Moore. That is all.

by joeybw on Jan 18, 2012 3:48 PM EST up reply actions  

A long reliever is a guy who pitches in wasted innings.

Besides, why should other teams determine the roles of Ray’s players? Just look at Peralta and Farnsworth.

by mr. maniac on Jan 18, 2012 3:50 PM EST up reply actions  

They shouldn't

but look at the guys projected for the pen. Only guys who have innings in their arms are McGee, Gomes and Badenhop and the first 2 are high leverage guys.

Matt Moore. That is all.

by joeybw on Jan 18, 2012 3:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Rodney can pitch plenty of innings too.

The inning totals I gave in my projections are the innings the Rays need.

by mr. maniac on Jan 18, 2012 4:33 PM EST up reply actions  

How good is our MIF gonna make Badenhop by the way?

He’s a ground ball machine and the Marlins were always pretty week up the middle for those ground balls. Rodriguez/Brignac and Zobrist are not only great defenders but Maddon will set them up perfectly for the double play.

Matt Moore. That is all.

by joeybw on Jan 18, 2012 4:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Better than his FIP, presumably.

I think people are forgetting he had a 2.9 FIP last year. Sure, it will go up quite a bit, but Badenhop is one of our better releivers.

by mr. maniac on Jan 18, 2012 5:14 PM EST up reply actions  

According to Topkin, Badenhop does have an option remaining

I remember him mentioning that at the time the trade was announced.

by Barnacles on Jan 18, 2012 7:10 PM EST up reply actions  

I used Crawford as a comparison.

He should be near the peak of his defensive abilities. Do you think he will be like Crawford in LF?

by mr. maniac on Jan 18, 2012 3:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, I did have him regress some....

Seems to me that Price is just really good.

by mr. maniac on Jan 18, 2012 3:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Whoops!

So, eh, yeah. But he should hopefully get better, and .1 WAR isn’t that big of a deal.

by mr. maniac on Jan 18, 2012 3:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Ok so the Darvish deal is official

I know Jackson is still a FA but I find him and Oswalt overrated. Maybe it’s finally time to trade a SP. Perhaps the Angels and their 3 1B want 5 good – great starters instead of rolling with Jerome Williams all year.

Matt Moore. That is all.

by joeybw on Jan 18, 2012 4:35 PM EST reply actions  

I much rather the Rangers have Darvish than Fielder.

I hope Fielder stays in the NL. I dunno how teams can see what talent small market teams can garner, and then spend 110 million on a unproven pitcher, from Japan no less, when seen what has happened with all the others here…..hitters here are much more patient, and the Japanese pitchers get murdered after awhile when have to continuously work deep into counts.

by rickdr23 on Jan 18, 2012 5:23 PM EST reply actions  

but according to scouts

Matsu and Ike and chan ho were can’t miss either, to name a few. Its because of intracacies like pitch counts and pitch recognition, for a major reason actually, and scouting and habits that MLB people pick up on that really get them after a while. Its ridiculous to spend 110 million bucks on him would could have given that money to Fielder.

by rickdr23 on Jan 18, 2012 5:41 PM EST up reply actions  

The actual reason

or the one Dice K gave was that they use smaller balls, no, not a joke, Japan and it’s hard to get a good grip in America.

Matt Moore. That is all.

by joeybw on Jan 18, 2012 5:43 PM EST up reply actions  

God, if they added Fielder...

That lineup is scariest in the AL IMO, Sox and Yanks don’t scare me as much as them as it is.

Matt Moore. That is all.

by joeybw on Jan 18, 2012 5:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Only way Sox scare me is if Beckett, Lester, and Bucholz stay healthy the whole year, which I doubt.

but Yankees adding Pineda is disheartening, He won’t be as dominant as he was at beginning of last year, but he is still gonna be a good pitcher, even with his 2 1/2 pitches.

by rickdr23 on Jan 18, 2012 5:49 PM EST up reply actions  

I meant the lineup

but yes, overall, we probably need some luck on top of a great team to win the East this year.

Matt Moore. That is all.

by joeybw on Jan 18, 2012 5:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Trust me, the Sox should really be scaring you now.

I didn’t do very in depth projections, but they are almost as good as the Rays and with a ton of potential if they are all healthy.

by mr. maniac on Jan 18, 2012 6:19 PM EST up reply actions  

MLB Network talked to a former teammate of Darvish from the Ham Fighters

I think his name was Bobby Scales. He said the balls in Japan aren’t smaller but their seams are raised more so it makes the ball easier to grip and easier to make the ball move. But on the other hand he said that the mound is lower so he might gain an advantage in that regard. I think he will be good but 111 mil is a little much IMO.

by JoeMasGlasses on Jan 18, 2012 11:11 PM EST up reply actions  

This, I was watching that.

But didn’t he say the mounds are a bit flatter there?

This meme definitely has a shelf life to it

by Jason Collette on Dec 29, 2011 11:31 AM EST upreplyactions

So do you.

BOOM. ROASTED!

by SandalsNoPants on Dec 29, 2011 11:32 AM EST upreply Rec Flag

by sc_monsta1015 on Jan 19, 2012 3:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Is anyone else going to do any projections?

It doesn’t take too long. Just click the link, change the league wOBA to .330 and the league ERA to 3.80. I’m willing to bet my projections end up on the low end.

by mr. maniac on Jan 18, 2012 5:28 PM EST reply actions  

And, for the record, I think the Rays will win 99 games in 2011.

My projections were a bit pessimistic and more of a reference tool than anything.

by mr. maniac on Jan 18, 2012 5:28 PM EST up reply actions  

I enjoyed it, and while good points were made on most criticism

at the end of the day its still projections, the pitchers are a tough call on WAR, due to road games more than anything, only one I thought you wrong in was Upton. Good article though. I think Rays win 92-94, but go .500 in AL East, with the Jays next year, if Lawrie and Co. stay healthy and a better Rasmus, and the Yanks getting Pineda and Kuroda, its gonna be a beast.

by rickdr23 on Jan 18, 2012 5:32 PM EST up reply actions  

I ran some projections on the Jays....

Lets just say we should be too worried about them quite yet. They don’t have a single “strong suit.”

by mr. maniac on Jan 18, 2012 6:45 PM EST up reply actions  

they are good at alot of things though, but again, just projections

I’m just banking on Morrow and Romero to improve as well as Rasmus. They will be better than last year no doubt, def not a pushover, just saying they will improve, they won’t be viable in the race.

by rickdr23 on Jan 18, 2012 7:32 PM EST up reply actions  

He does.

They are still just an average to above average team though. They would need several breakouts to contend,

by mr. maniac on Jan 18, 2012 11:08 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm gonna say 96

We can pitch against anyone, we can stop what would be sure hits on defense but our offense will keep us from getting any higher than 96, which is still optimistic.

Matt Moore. That is all.

by joeybw on Jan 18, 2012 5:35 PM EST up reply actions  

I think they won 91 games in 2011.

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by SandalsNoPants on Jan 18, 2012 6:29 PM EST up reply actions  

I actually recommended it to him

To account for the Trop park factor. But no method behind it (trial and error), it was that using 3.80 aligned with the Fangraphs WARs for Rays pitchers.

by Ben Tumbling on Jan 18, 2012 5:38 PM EST up reply actions  

FIP (I guess).

I thought FIP was pretty much park adjusted. So I used in between FIP and ERA. But I guess I should just call it their FIP now.

by mr. maniac on Jan 18, 2012 9:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Huh?

So BB numbers and K numbers don’t change from park to park, do they?

by mr. maniac on Jan 19, 2012 11:06 AM EST up reply actions  

Why?

Can I see a source on that? I’m not doubting you, I would just like to see it.

by mr. maniac on Jan 19, 2012 11:33 AM EST up reply actions  

hrmm... headed to lunch and then a meeting.

look at statcorner’s park effects. BB/K/HBP/etc. all make an appearance.

by rglass44 on Jan 19, 2012 11:40 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm trying to locate a source as well

But instinctively, the hitters backdrop, shadows, lighting should affect BB and K rates

by Ben Tumbling on Jan 19, 2012 11:50 AM EST up reply actions  

I changed the numbers to .330 and 3.8 because that made them correlate with Fangraph's WAR.

If I changed the numbers from that, any 2011 season I typed in for a player would have been scewed. For example, with the numbers you used in your projection, Shields was worth 5.8 WAR last year. Last year, he was really only worth 4.9 WAR.

by mr. maniac on Jan 18, 2012 6:24 PM EST up reply actions  

wow. that's a serious park adjustment they hit the pitchers with.

so for hitters we need to adjust league wOBA down to .307 to match their park factors on last year’s numbers. it might be best to do it an average of the three previous years, so when we look at the three previous years for prognostication we take that in to account. that’s an insane park adjustment, though.

by rglass44 on Jan 19, 2012 11:06 AM EST up reply actions  

Those were the numbers that lined up with Fangraph's WAR.

If you typed int he correct numbers, the Rays are a 102 WAR team and Shields year this past season should have actually benn worth 7 WAR.

It is messed up a bit. But this isn’t an exact science.

by mr. maniac on Jan 18, 2012 6:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Damn it, Zumaya only got 800K

Oh well, he will probably get hurt again anyway.

Matt Moore. That is all.

by joeybw on Jan 18, 2012 6:12 PM EST reply actions  

But if he came to us, he would have had a better chance of not getting hurt.

This meme definitely has a shelf life to it

by Jason Collette on Dec 29, 2011 11:31 AM EST upreplyactions

So do you.

BOOM. ROASTED!

by SandalsNoPants on Dec 29, 2011 11:32 AM EST upreply Rec Flag

by sc_monsta1015 on Jan 18, 2012 8:21 PM EST up reply actions  

ZIPS

I plugged in the ZIPS forecast to rglass’ spreadsheet. I retained the # of plate appearances, but I did some adjustments for the innings pitched.

I zeroed the fielding wins because I’m ASSUMING that defense is accounted for in the pitcher ERA forecasts,

The result is a little pessimistic: 89.5 wins.



by Ben Tumbling on Jan 18, 2012 6:39 PM EST reply actions  

I have issues with those numbers though.

200 innings with a 3.47 is not 4.5 WAR.

Can you plug in the Yankee’s numbers?

by mr. maniac on Jan 18, 2012 6:47 PM EST up reply actions  

And there is a reason why they are pessimistic.

They expect a 2.7 WAR from a guy who has had WARs of 4.1, 4, 2.4, 5, and 4.5 over the five years, who is in his prime, and who is in a contract year.

by mr. maniac on Jan 18, 2012 6:50 PM EST up reply actions  

There is nothing in the FLD column

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by Tommy Rancel on Jan 18, 2012 9:27 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Yup

I made the assumption that fielding wins are reflected in the ZIPS ERA. Would be good if someone can confirm this.

by Ben Tumbling on Jan 18, 2012 9:40 PM EST up reply actions  

A couple of notes

I had KOTCHMAN! in there. Glad to make Landlord happy.

If the forecast ERAs are fielding neutral, you can tack on 4 additional wins (93.5).

by Ben Tumbling on Jan 18, 2012 8:38 PM EST up reply actions  

The Rays fielding is only worth 4 WAR?

Using ERA, I know that the Rays defense and the Trop made them 8 WAR better. So is half of that number fielding and half of it is the Trop.

by mr. maniac on Jan 18, 2012 9:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Well, the 4 WAR is rglass' projection for 2012, which I've agree with

It’s conservative, regressed by good deal. Like rglass said, current fielding tools are imprecise enough that taking cautionary approach is prudent.

by Ben Tumbling on Jan 18, 2012 9:55 PM EST up reply actions  

At the summary screenshot

Field = 4.0 WAA.

Technically it’s wins above average, but it’s still 4 wins to the total.

by Ben Tumbling on Jan 18, 2012 10:02 PM EST up reply actions  

But the amount should really be higher then, right?

THis is above replacement level, not average. Or am I missing something?

by mr. maniac on Jan 19, 2012 11:05 AM EST up reply actions  

WAR calculation:

(Batting runs above average+Fielding runs above average+positional adjustment+replacement level)/10=WAR

so you find BRAA by taking (wOBA-lgwOBA)/1.15*PAs
FRAA is their raw UZR or +/-
positional adjustment is evident
replacement is like 20 runs per 150 games or 600 pas or something
then divide by 10 to turn runs in to wins

by rglass44 on Jan 19, 2012 11:09 AM EST up reply actions  

My updated projections has us at 98.1 wins.

I think the numbers are a little optimistic at catching and shortstop, but everything else I feel really pretty confident in. I still stand by my original thoughts that this is a 93-98 win team.

by jtmorgan on Jan 18, 2012 7:19 PM EST reply actions  

Good job.

I’m just interested in seeing as many of these as possible. That wasn’t hard, was it?

by mr. maniac on Jan 18, 2012 8:11 PM EST up reply actions  

No, I had most of it done about a month ago.

So just updated the latest bullpen pickups and Scott.

by jtmorgan on Jan 18, 2012 8:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Red Sox ZIPS

Again, I made the assumption that fielding is already part of the projected ERA’s. Also, I have no idea what their baserunning numbers are so they’re blank.

I don’t like the result — 96.4 wins. Feel free to pick this apart, please.



by Ben Tumbling on Jan 18, 2012 9:48 PM EST reply actions  

I used ZiPs for the ERA (and my own estimates for those without projections), IP are my estimates

Jon Lester (200 IP, 3.46 ERA)
Clay Buchholz (170 IP, 3.63 ERA)
Josh Beckett (175 IP, 3.8 ERA)
Alfredo Aceves (150 IP, 4.2 ERA)
Daniel Bard (100 IP, 4 ERA)
Aaron Cook (50 IP, 4.5 ERA)
Andrew Miller (50 IP, 5.76 ERA)
Vicente Padilla (100 IP, 4.5 ERA)

995 total; a little over than the target 940.

by Ben Tumbling on Jan 19, 2012 11:42 AM EST up reply actions  

Yup that's mine

Just an eyeball estimate from looking at his career numbers.

The Bard ERA could be optimistic as well, who knows how he’ll do. Although it’s probably illogical on my part to still have a projection for him in the bullpen if he’s putting up a 4.00 ERA in the rotation.

by Ben Tumbling on Jan 19, 2012 11:56 AM EST up reply actions  

no chance bard has a 4era in that park as a SP. id be shocked.

not a quibble so much with your numbers, but more of a statement in my lack of faith in his transition back to the rotation.

by rglass44 on Jan 20, 2012 9:55 AM EST up reply actions  

I ran the numbers with a .307 wOBA and a 3.80 ERA.

I’m getting 105.8 wins. I’d image rglass will get a pretty similar number.

by mr. maniac on Jan 19, 2012 12:01 PM EST reply actions  

I saw Sandy used Zips and got 94 wins for the Rays,

He was using the wrong league numbers though. Price had a 5 WAR year despite getting worse, etc.

by mr. maniac on Jan 20, 2012 10:27 AM EST up reply actions  

hard to say "wrong league numbers" because who knows what happens in the league next year.

also, since ZIPS uses three eyars of data, you’d need to use 3 years of league averages.

by rglass44 on Jan 20, 2012 11:25 AM EST up reply actions  

But we are trying to correlate it correctly to WAR.

What is the point of typing in the numbers if it gives you the wrong WAR numbers? I don’t think it will be that drastic of a change in one season.

by mr. maniac on Jan 20, 2012 11:42 AM EST up reply actions  

As long as you use the same run environment in both pitcher and batter forecasts

The WAR might end up too low or too high for our tastes, but the win total should be the same.

by Ben Tumbling on Jan 20, 2012 1:18 PM EST up reply actions  

There is no "wrong WAR numbers."

You are adjusting them to last year’s RE in the Trop. There is a near 0% chance it will be the same next year. The RE and prognostications should be made with an eye to next year by using the past (not just what happened last year).

by rglass44 on Jan 20, 2012 2:44 PM EST up reply actions  

But do the numbers relate correctly?

For example, the numbers don’t give hitters an advantage, do they?

by mr. maniac on Jan 20, 2012 3:46 PM EST up reply actions  

For example.

Using a 4.30 ERA and a .330 wOBA are the percentages the numbers are off by the same? it doesn’t make the pitchers 20% better and the hitters 10% better, correct? The league ERA’s and wOBA’s should correlate is a way each year, since they negate eachother.

For example, using those numbers, Price is worth 5 WAR when he would have had 4 WAR last year (i’m making these up). Longo is worth 5 WAR when he would have been worth 6 WAR. What if that doesn’t undervalue/overvalue them at the same level?

by mr. maniac on Jan 20, 2012 10:40 PM EST up reply actions  

It all washes out when you convert from runs to wins

If you think the league is better at ERA then you would have to similarly change your run environment divisor.

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by Sandy Kazmir on Jan 24, 2012 11:25 AM EST up reply actions  

Dan Szymborski says
ZiPS is projecting based on the AL having a 4.19 ERA and the NL having a 3.96 ERA.

by Ben Tumbling on Jan 20, 2012 1:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Would be interesting to see all 30 teams done

to see if everyone is way overrating their teams. Or that the average wins of all teams came to 81.

by Xeifrank on Jan 30, 2012 1:36 AM EST reply actions  

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