The Rays Tank: Stu & Bill Chat, Price Raves, And V-Mart Gets Injured
by Steve Slowinski on Jan 18, 2012 8:01 AM EST
in The Rays Tank
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Short and sweet:
- Lost in the shuffle of the arbitration results yesterday was the fact that Stuart Sternberg and Bill Foster met to discuss the Rays' stadium situation once more. There are no specifics yet on what was discussed, but the Tampa Bay Times passed along whatever information they could glean.
- Listen to David Price rave about the Rays makes it oh, so difficult not to imagine him signing a team-friendly long-term deal. I am still skeptical, but I'd love to be proven wrong.
- According to a recent rumor, utility man Craig Counsell should announce shortly that he is going to retire and take a position in the Brewers' front office. I had no idea he was so cerebral.
- R.J. Anderson has a fascinating article over at BPro (sorry, subscription required) about the staying power of Japanese pitchers. Do they fade as the league adjusts to them? Or is there some other reason that most of them decline over time?
- Victor Martinez hurt himself while training, and it sounds likely that he will be out for the entire 2012 season. If that's the case, how much will the Tigers miss V-Mart? The answer isn't as much as you might think.
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Counsell went to Notre Dame.
From the look of the age he was drafted, he probably graduated, also, but I don’t have time to look it up at this moment.
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"I don't always post off-topic, but when I do, I post at http://ottotd.com" - $tinky $tu
"Please break your typewriter and computer and never come out of your ass cave again"
by pudieron89 on Jan 18, 2012 8:36 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Racist Journalist Anderson
"I don't always post off-topic, but when I do, I post at http://ottotd.com" - $tinky $tu
"Please break your typewriter and computer and never come out of your ass cave again"
You sure are putting a lot of your eggs into this Betemit basket, Collette. Have you been in contact with the FO?
"I don't always post off-topic, but when I do, I post at http://ottotd.com" - $tinky $tu
"Please break your typewriter and computer and never come out of your ass cave again"
To which I'll retort, HELL no.
He’s an absolute butcher in the field. I mean REAL bad. And a bad baserunner…who somehow supported his value with a .391 BABIP last season. He doesn’t have good patience, not even close to Pena’s—actually struck out more than him last season while taking far fewer walks. And the only time he’s even sniffed a full time job was in 2006. I’d rather see Kotch than him.
He had a good 2010 at the plate with a slightly high BABIP. He had a meh 2011 at the plate with an insanely high BABIP. Give me Los over him any day of the week in 2012.
"I don't always post off-topic, but when I do, I post at http://ottotd.com" - $tinky $tu
"Please break your typewriter and computer and never come out of your ass cave again"
Put me down as being against Betemit. While he's listed as a SH, Wily Aybar had better stats RH than him
follow me on twitter @sternfan10
I don't want Betemit for his ability to hit as a RH guy
Outside of 2010, he hasn’t show he can
I'm not a fanboy, I'm an awesome dude
by Jason Collette on Jan 18, 2012 9:48 AM EST up reply actions
Ask yourself this
Longo gets hurt again, or whoever we sign at 1st goes to the DL – who replaces either?
Aybar was handy to have around in those cases. Yea, Betemit is not a good fielder but vs RHP, the guy hits. Jack F’n Cust, who is literally allergic to leather, just got a 2 year deal. Unless Betemit is asking for multiple years or ridiculous money, there is no need for him to still be without a job in the AL.
I want both guys, but if Pena goes for more money elsewhere, all hope isn’t lost (offensively)
I'm not a fanboy, I'm an awesome dude
by Jason Collette on Jan 18, 2012 9:50 AM EST up reply actions
this, and call up TBex
"I don't always post off-topic, but when I do, I post at http://ottotd.com" - $tinky $tu
"Please break your typewriter and computer and never come out of your ass cave again"
Who goes to 1st?
Scott? Then who DHs?
Net gain of playing a Brignac/Bex platoon so Rodriguez can play 3rd?
That’s the kind of offensive tipping point Friedman has mentioned. In the end, the 12 man pitching staff likely makes the point null and void but if the market is dry and the team can land him on a Kotchman like deal, I’d be thrilled.
I'm not a fanboy, I'm an awesome dude
by Jason Collette on Jan 18, 2012 10:01 AM EST up reply actions
THIS IS A TEMPORARY MOVE
temporary due to injury is by definition suboptimal. doesn’t mean we need to throw another mil or two at a sub with bad peripherals. holy crap collete, you’re completely ignoring the numbers in order to push this guy, it’s uncharacteristic and frankly perplexing.
"I don't always post off-topic, but when I do, I post at http://ottotd.com" - $tinky $tu
"Please break your typewriter and computer and never come out of your ass cave again"
Sorry, I can't hear you. More caps please
And I’d argue I’ve done everything with numbers rather than just one year or one stat as you’ve leaned on.
I'm not a fanboy, I'm an awesome dude
by Jason Collette on Jan 18, 2012 10:07 AM EST up reply actions
You're being willfully ignorant if you actually believe the shit you just typed, I can't even debate with someone who is being this stupid. Enjoy your Betemit fest!
"I don't always post off-topic, but when I do, I post at http://ottotd.com" - $tinky $tu
"Please break your typewriter and computer and never come out of your ass cave again"
have fun at ottotd, again
You know this type of behavior is not tolerated here
I'm not a fanboy, I'm an awesome dude
by Jason Collette on Jan 18, 2012 10:17 AM EST up reply actions
The consensus of your argument
BABIP
bad fielder
stupid
ignorant
This is not how we do things around here and you’ve been around here long enough to know this. I’m happy to have this discussion on an objective level but insults and profanity put you on the sidelines.
I'm not a fanboy, I'm an awesome dude
by Jason Collette on Jan 18, 2012 10:19 AM EST up reply actions
I'm also not the only guy making this match
http://www.mlbdailydish.com/2012/1/9/2692814/looking-at-the-remaining-buy-low-candidates
http://mlb.sbnation.com/2012/1/5/2685280/free-agents-mlb-rumors
http://riveraveblues.com/2011/12/cant-find-a-betemit-59509/
Either all 3 of us are f’n morons, or there’s something there. You be the judge
I'm not a fanboy, I'm an awesome dude
by Jason Collette on Jan 18, 2012 10:13 AM EST up reply actions
there or NY would be good fits for him, but he didn't exactly inspire anyone in NY
The issue with him going back to Det is that for those who believe in lineup protection, Betemit is a step down from V-Mart whose presence still inspired teams to IBB Miggy 22 times last season.
by Jason Collette on Jan 18, 2012 10:37 AM EST up reply actions
they went with kotch because of the upside of a first round pick with good defense and the fact that we didn't already have a sure thing at 1B in Johnson.
I wouldn’t mind seeing them do the same thing this offseason…with a 1B, not a below average utilityman who can’t even use his glove properly.
"I don't always post off-topic, but when I do, I post at http://ottotd.com" - $tinky $tu
"Please break your typewriter and computer and never come out of your ass cave again"
Cornermen OPS+ from 2009 to 2011 (min 500 PA)
Rk Player OPS+ PA From To
1 Albert Pujols 171 2051 2009 2011
2 Miguel Cabrera 167 2021 2009 2011
3 Joey Votto 161 1911 2009 2011
4 Adrian Gonzalez 156 2088 2009 2011
5 Prince Fielder 155 2125 2009 2011
6 Lance Berkman 141 1630 2009 2011
7 Kevin Youkilis 141 1540 2009 2011
8 Paul Konerko 139 1891 2009 2011
9 Evan Longoria 138 1906 2009 2011
10 Kendrys Morales 137 833 2009 2010
11 Ryan Zimmerman 132 1736 2009 2011
12 Ryan Howard 131 1967 2009 2011
13 Justin Morneau 131 1226 2009 2011
14 Pablo Sandoval 130 1715 2009 2011
15 Billy Butler 128 2023 2009 2011
16 Mark Teixeira 128 2103 2009 2011
17 Alex Rodriguez 126 1558 2009 2011
18 David Wright 124 1735 2009 2011
19 Wilson Betemit 123 724 2009 2011
20 Ike Davis 123 750 2010 2011
21 Russell Branyan 122 1079 2009 2011
22 Derrek Lee 122 1718 2009 2011
23 Adrian Beltre 121 1643 2009 2011
24 Chipper Jones 120 1489 2009 2011
25 Carlos Pena 120 1758 2009 2011
Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Play Index Tool Used
Generated 1/18/2012.
I'm not a fanboy, I'm an awesome dude
by Jason Collette on Jan 18, 2012 9:55 AM EST up reply actions
"pudieron89, you've just shown why Betemit's success is perhaps not sustainable based on saber stats, but I have OPS+!!"
really, just awful.
"I don't always post off-topic, but when I do, I post at http://ottotd.com" - $tinky $tu
"Please break your typewriter and computer and never come out of your ass cave again"
"stats"??
You used one, and out of context no less. He has posted BABIPs .344 or higher in four of his last six seasons. Sure, .391 last season was crazy high, but this a guy who is at .341 for his career.
PECOTA has him at 1.9 WAR for 2012 with a .326 BABIP, 29 XBH, & 41 RBI in 344 PA
I'm not a fanboy, I'm an awesome dude
by Jason Collette on Jan 18, 2012 10:06 AM EST up reply actions
I'm sorry, i didn't feel like posting every single one of his negative UZRs or Bsr.
Nor his suboptimal BB/K, but I mentioned ALL of it. So please, don’t refer to some stupid projection system that says a 30 year old career utility infielder with below average patience and abysmal fielding will post a 2WAR season (AS A UTILITY MAN?!?!) when his CAREER WAR is 3.3. Context is everything.
Sidebar: Is a career .341 BABIP sustainable for a guy with a career 3.2 Spd score? I don’t know so I’m asking. If it’s not, maybe he can just aim the ball well!! Oh no, we debunked that when you bashed people saying that about Kotch. Can’t have it both ways.
"I don't always post off-topic, but when I do, I post at http://ottotd.com" - $tinky $tu
"Please break your typewriter and computer and never come out of your ass cave again"
He has had 26 infield hits his entire career of 1949 plate appearances
5 less than Kotchman had in 2011 alone. BPro has Betemit’s career WAR at 5.7 and most of that has come over the last 2 seasons when he finally saw +300 PA’s in back to back seasons
I'm not a fanboy, I'm an awesome dude
by Jason Collette on Jan 18, 2012 10:22 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah
Ryan Howard and Billy Butler both also have great career BABIPs despite being slo
by benderbrodriguez on Jan 18, 2012 3:37 PM EST up reply actions
Consider
2009-2011:
Player A: .355 wOBA, 120 wRC+
Player B: .351 wOBA, 118 wRC+
Player C: .359 wOBA, 119 wRC+
Player C….that’s Luke Scott
Player B…that’s C-Pain
Player A….that’s Betemit
I’m talking $2M for the bench instead of 450K for some reliever to work 2-3x a month in meaningless innings as Sonnanstine did last year. If this staff is as good as we all hope it is, why can’t a 6-man pen carry the load?
by Jason Collette on Jan 18, 2012 4:01 PM EST up reply actions
I think we could do a lot worse than Betemit as a cheap, RH bench option
I’m just not sure the Rays agree. While I think an 11 man pitching staff should be fine, it seems like Maddon likes to have that extra bullpen arm to play matchups. I’m also not convinced that even if we went with an 11 man staff, that Canzler wouldn’t be that RH bench bat, if we chose to go bat over glove.
I'm pretty pessimistic on Canzler after talking to non-interested parties about him
and the fact DanJo killed it down here only to look mostly hapless here. I know AAAA players can sometimes make it (Cruz) but six year minor league free agents? That’s a new market inefficiency
by Jason Collette on Jan 18, 2012 5:28 PM EST up reply actions
No thanks to Betemit
If the whole team goes down is essentially Collette’s argument for him, but even that doesn’t make much sense. The main strength of the construction of the Rays lineup is the versatility and the depth. Roddy can play 1st, 2nd, SS or 3rd. Same for Zo if need be for short periods of time. Joyce is taking some reps at 1st and we obviously have depth in the OF with Guyer and Fuld. I’d rather Canzler or Miranda get a shot then us blow a couple mil and a roster spot on Betemit.
Juan Miranda has a lifetime slugging percentage of 420
I’m beginning to see why people like him so much now
by Jason Collette on Jan 18, 2012 12:33 PM EST up reply actions
And, no, this is a false representation of my argument
I want his bat on the bench. The bat is the primary and secondary wish for him, anything int he field is an afterthought. Better than league average wOBA over the past two seasons and has been 1-1.5 WAR. You throw $2M at a guy that has been worth >$5M each of the last two, and that’s a bargain for the bat.
by Jason Collette on Jan 18, 2012 12:48 PM EST up reply actions
I hope you have more than 16 followers, that'd just be pathetic.
"I don't always post off-topic, but when I do, I post at http://ottotd.com" - $tinky $tu
"Please break your typewriter and computer and never come out of your ass cave again"
Here you go...
https://twitter.com/about/resources/buttons
I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.
Follow @steveslow
by Steve Slowinski on Jan 18, 2012 10:19 AM EST up reply actions
I don't hate them but it makes all their posts look the same
by Ben Tumbling on Jan 18, 2012 10:43 AM EST up reply actions
Yes your right, but I finally had to join them
Follow @Imreallycool 1 follower (My Mom)
Believe in the Fuld
WTF is going on around here?
The other day an epic trade fanpost gets deleted and now comments that are neither inflammatory or vulgar just start disappearing. Come on, it’s the internet.
PIPA
Boom. Outta Here.
Follow @RyanGilliss
by Ryan Gilliss on Jan 18, 2012 11:32 AM EST up reply actions
Big brother is watching
by BossmanJunior333 on Jan 18, 2012 12:50 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Let's assume that the issue is
who should be the 25th man on the roster-the utility player. The choices are E. Johnson, Betemit, Theriot or Keppinger. Who would people want?
I suppose it would make sense
if you think the Rays primary need in a utility player is a decent glove. On a 5 man bench where one will probably be Brignac or Sean Rodriguez depending who is starting that day, #2 & 3 are Fuld & Guyer and #4 is the second catcher, is that the top priority?
Or would it be better to select the best LH bat of the four choices?
my thinking is more in-line with your first point and considering cost.
it also depends in large part about who we sign for 1b.
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