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"Solving" The Rays Starting Pitching Glut: Matt Moore To The Pen

The Rays glut of starting pitchers is no secret. People claim that the Rays have eight viable starting pitching options-James Shields, David Price, Jeff Niemann, Jeremy Hellickson, Matt Moore, Wade Davis, Alex Cobb, and Alex Torres. Given that Alex Torres is, barring injury, a lock to start off the season in AAA, this still leaves the Rays with 7 legitimate potentially above average starting pitchers.

As Einstein once said, seven is two more than five. Because of this, even if the Rays keep Alex Cobb in AAA for another season or if they manage to trade someone they'll have one too many pitchers, and at this point in the off-season, with so few murmurs, it seems unlikely the Rays will be able to get what they perceive as fair value for one of their starters. As a result, it seems likely that someone will be stuck moving to the bullpen.

Even though people generally seem to think that Jeff Niemann or Wade Davis should be moving to the bullpen, on account of those being the two least reliable and probably least talented starters out of the main six contenders, Matt Moore provides an intriguing option for this movement. I'll examine why after the jump.

Star-divide

  1. Limiting Innings: Matt Moore pitched 174 innings last season, a fairly large jump from his previous high of 144. Although from this point he's probably ready to make the jump to 200+ innings, he's still a young starting pitcher, and the Rays would want to be conservative with his innings. Keeping him in the bullpen to start the year would be an easy way to limit his innings painlessly and let him pitch deeper into games later in the year.
  2. Trade Value: Jeff Niemann and Wade Davis are the two starters most likely to get traded. Moving either of them to the bullpen would tank their trade value. Given that the Rays are decidedly unlikely to sell low on either of these pitchers, starting them both off in the rotation would allow for one of them to start off strong and build more value.
  3. Effectiveness: Matt Moore is a really good starting pitcher. Good starting pitchers make better relievers. It's been shown that on average starters experience a one run drop in ERA when moving to the bullpen, and there's no question that Moore has the stuff to be effective in the back end of the bullpen, unlike other starting pitchers, who may not have the velocity to transition seamlessly. Zips projects Moore for a 3.72 ERA as a starter, which would correspond with a 2.72 ERA as a relief pitcher. Compared to Fernando Rodney's 4.32 projected ERA, the Rays would generate about .4 wins if Matt Moore pitches 20 innings out of the bullpen instead of Rodney. The Rays would swap a near-replacement pitcher for a relief ace.

The obvious argument against putting Moore in the bullpen is that his potent innings would be lost from the rotation. This argument has merit, but the Rays wouldn't be missing out on all that much. Assuming that Moore's starts would be replaced by Wade Davis (who has the most negative Zips projections out of any Rays starter), over 10 starts and ~65 innings the Rays would lose .5 wins, or an opportunity cost of about .1 win (subtracting the wins gained from him being in the bullpen).

Although one of the Rays goals is to optimize value wherever possible, starting Moore off in the bullpen for a couple months would cost the Rays a few runs at most. Given the potential benefits this presents in preserving his health, bolstering an already solid bullpen, and allowing the Rays to get significantly greater returns for Davis or Niemann, it seems without a doubt the most logical solution to the "problem" that every team wishes they had.

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This will end up being moot

Every spring training, pitchers get hurt – either for us, or more likely for other teams. Davis/Niemann and/or some reconciliation of the suplus will be made at that time when the demand is higher than it is now.

by SamRay on Jan 23, 2012 1:17 PM EST reply actions  

Our surplus is huge though

Two extra starters won’t vanish by season’s start, most likely

by PGP on Jan 23, 2012 2:16 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

so deal niemann or davis during spring training

and use the other and Moore interchangeably as starter/relievers, thus keeping both fresh, maximizing “quality innings”, while still showcasing the other pitcher until injury #2 pops up with us or others.

by SamRay on Jan 23, 2012 2:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Its actually a moo point. It's all moo. ---anyone know the reference.....anyone

"Did you guys hear that? I think the ball just hit the plane"-- Jeff Bagwell, while on the plane heading back to St. Louis after Pujols Game 5 homerun off Brad Lidge.

by rickdr23 on Jan 23, 2012 5:07 PM EST up reply actions  

veddy nice

If you believe in a religious god or deity, tell Santa hi for me too.

by rickdr23 on Jan 23, 2012 10:32 PM EST up reply actions  

The SP to pen idea is one I have liked all along

However, we are loaded with pitchers everywhere and if we start putting a SP in there, we risk one of the few guys with options, McGee and Gomes from making the team.

I’d love to see Niemann or Davis traded for prospects at this point, there’s no MLB ready C coming to Tampa at this point.

Matt Moore. That is all.

by joeybw on Jan 23, 2012 1:18 PM EST reply actions  

It may be impossible to trade Niemann/Davis until almost late March

Edwin Jackson is still a FA, and with next year’s SP class, he won’t do that well either for 2013 so he’s clogging up our market.

I put the screw IN THE TUNA!

by Transplanted on Jan 23, 2012 1:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Gonna go with no

They held Hellickson to 189 innings last year without having him go to the bullpen, they can do something similar for Moore

Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com

by Imperialism32 on Jan 23, 2012 1:21 PM EST reply actions  

Agreed.

If you are going to put a pitcher in the pen, as opposed to trading one, then make it the worst one (Davis).

by Barnacles on Jan 23, 2012 1:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Please no.

They wouldn’t want him to potentially lower his innings from last year just from the point of getting to 200 or so in 2013. Just use him like Helly and he’ll get around 180 and you can skip a start or 2 through off days.

I just am excited to seeing him pitch and maybe just trying to justify it.

by jtmorgan on Jan 23, 2012 1:26 PM EST reply actions  

No, no, no.

I absolutely hate the idea of Moore to the bullpen. Let him start.

by mint420 on Jan 23, 2012 2:10 PM EST reply actions  

Zero percent chance this happens.

And why risk it with him? Plenty of pitchers have been been converted to a relief role and have struggled trying to convert back. Lets not mess with the top pitching prospect in baseball please.

Davis will be traded this offseason. It would be awesome if we could get Derek Norris for him.

by mr. maniac on Jan 23, 2012 2:15 PM EST reply actions  

No way Moore in pen

Every move AF has made this off season has been logical and almost predictable. Scott, Pena and even Rhymes. Radical moves, although sexy sounding just aren’t going to happen. Cobb to AAA since he’ll need additional time to recover from surgery. Moore in the starting rotation with limitation of innings and trading Davis/Niemann for catcher/prospects. If trade not there initially, then Niemann to pen. Everything points to making a run at ring this year before Price etc become too expensive.

Believe in the Fuld

by RayJzone on Jan 23, 2012 2:41 PM EST reply actions  

6 man rotation?

Hi — I’m new to this board, so apologies if this topic has been talked to death earlier.

But I don’t understand why we can’t start with a 6 man rotation. I know the argument about how pitchers have their routines and don’t like them to be altered….but our pitchers often deal with days off, rain outs, etc. and they survive. If need be, you could move things around when there are off days so that, say, Shields and Price are closer to a 5-day schedule with Niemann (who seems like quite a delicate flower), Hellickson and Moore getting longer breaks.

I recall Brian Anderson last year saying that the main reason no one has a 6 man rotation is that few teams have 6 viable starting pitchers — they are lucky to have 5.

So, why not go with six starters?

by lizzieray on Jan 23, 2012 3:01 PM EST reply actions  

No way we start the season with a 6-man rotation.

I could see something like that happening late in the year—after we trade Davis/Niemann—by calling up Cobb to get a few starts, but just to limit innings for Moore and even Hellickson.

This meme definitely has a shelf life to it

by Jason Collette on Dec 29, 2011 11:31 AM EST upreplyactions

So do you.

BOOM. ROASTED!

by SandalsNoPants on Dec 29, 2011 11:32 AM EST upreply Rec Flag

by sc_monsta1015 on Jan 23, 2012 3:08 PM EST up reply actions  

didn't the rays do the 6 man thing

for a couple weeks last season?

It’s ungainly to consider for more than a short time IMO.

by tampa_edski on Jan 23, 2012 7:32 PM EST up reply actions  

yup

towards the end of the season i believe

by tbmd on Jan 23, 2012 7:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Usually, early in the season,

teams don’t even need a 5 man rotation because of the schedule and rain-outs. As noted by sc-monsta1015, it is more likely later in the season when make-up games and tight schedules make it advisable or necessary.

by bobr on Jan 23, 2012 3:40 PM EST up reply actions  

I put this together on another site if you don't mind reading something that's pretty dry

http://theraysway.com/articles/why-the-six-man-rotation-would-be-a-bad-idea-for-the-rays-in-2012

This looks at using one all season, there’s probably a case to use one in July-August or other short stretches to keep the younger guys pitch counts down so I’d love to see someone take less of a black and white look at this issue.

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by Sandy Kazmir on Jan 23, 2012 5:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Valid question.

With a 6 man rotation, your best pitchers pitch less.

The potential injury avoidance and extended rest don’t offset an innings decrease for a team’s top starters.

by Hatfield on Jan 23, 2012 6:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Moore in the 'pen? No thanks

Even if none of our pitchers are traded, I think starting the season in Durham is more likely than starting in the bullpen.

This meme definitely has a shelf life to it

by Jason Collette on Dec 29, 2011 11:31 AM EST upreplyactions

So do you.

BOOM. ROASTED!

by SandalsNoPants on Dec 29, 2011 11:32 AM EST upreply Rec Flag

by sc_monsta1015 on Jan 23, 2012 3:10 PM EST reply actions  

Agreed

joeybw, on why he was banned for half a day:

"Might of been grammar I keep getting that "would have" thing wrong

Not on purpose, mods, wish it was….."

Classic.

by sc_monsta1015 on Jan 23, 2012 9:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Just saying Moore to the pen seems VERY unlikely.

joeybw, on why he was banned for half a day:

"Might of been grammar I keep getting that "would have" thing wrong

Not on purpose, mods, wish it was….."

Classic.

by sc_monsta1015 on Jan 23, 2012 9:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Pitch count spike wasn't as bad as IP spike for Hellickson

The pitch count is what is to be watched rather than IP totals since all innings are not thrown equally.

by Jason Collette on Jan 23, 2012 3:14 PM EST reply actions  

Yup

Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla

by FreeZorilla on Jan 23, 2012 8:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Moore Bullpen?

That would be borderline insanity!!!!

by MarkFidrych on Jan 23, 2012 4:13 PM EST reply actions  

I'm going to go w/ a big fat NO on Moore to the pen.

Non Mollare, non mai mollare!
ItaliaNole A.K.A. SavvysNole

by ItaliaNole on Jan 23, 2012 4:22 PM EST reply actions  

Just out of curiousity what makes you think Torres is a lock for AAA but list Cobb with the other 6

if anything I think it would be the other way around. For one Cobb had the injury/condition that took him out of the end of the season and hopefully he will be 100% but we aren’t completely sure, also I would say the outing Torres had against Toronto was just as impressive as Cobb.

by Dbullsfan on Jan 23, 2012 4:27 PM EST reply actions  

Cobb flat out dominated AAA. He has nothing left to prove there.

Torres still needs to improve his command. Cobb seems like he’s already a finished product

by PGP on Jan 23, 2012 8:00 PM EST up reply actions  

while he did dominate Cobb only has 12 aaa starts

It isn’t the.Rays way to rush him to the majors, especially when there is no need and the difference between him and any of the other 3 would be very marginal

by Dbullsfan on Jan 23, 2012 9:47 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

while he did dominate Cobb only has 12 aaa starts

It isn’t the.Rays way to rush him to the majors, especially when there is no need and the difference between him and any of the other 3 would be very marginal

by Dbullsfan on Jan 23, 2012 9:50 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Rays have a couple of one trick pony strikeout pitchers in pen already, no need for another one.

Moore in the bullpen is like Mel G. portraying a Israeli man.

"Did you guys hear that? I think the ball just hit the plane"-- Jeff Bagwell, while on the plane heading back to St. Louis after Pujols Game 5 homerun off Brad Lidge.

by rickdr23 on Jan 23, 2012 4:29 PM EST reply actions  

even better point.

"Did you guys hear that? I think the ball just hit the plane"-- Jeff Bagwell, while on the plane heading back to St. Louis after Pujols Game 5 homerun off Brad Lidge.

by rickdr23 on Jan 23, 2012 4:36 PM EST up reply actions  

i don't think ramos makes the team this year.

"Please break your typewriter and computer and never come out of your ass cave again"

by pudieron89 on Jan 24, 2012 9:05 AM EST up reply actions  

I'll have a long post up on Niemann tomorrow morning.

Niemann is definitely not the starter the Rays should trade. Davis is the much much better option and I will be extremely dissappointed if we trade Niemann.

by mr. maniac on Jan 23, 2012 4:52 PM EST reply actions  

absolutely concur.

"Did you guys hear that? I think the ball just hit the plane"-- Jeff Bagwell, while on the plane heading back to St. Louis after Pujols Game 5 homerun off Brad Lidge.

by rickdr23 on Jan 23, 2012 5:06 PM EST up reply actions  

What I love about Niemann, without delving into the intricate stats....

is the eye test, how he pitches in big games (sox in particular), how he seems to not be phased by anything, his stature, and when he is on, he is ****ING on. If he can just focus more when he pitches against the Athletics and Royals of the world, he could be a top tier pitcher. My opinion only.

"Did you guys hear that? I think the ball just hit the plane"-- Jeff Bagwell, while on the plane heading back to St. Louis after Pujols Game 5 homerun off Brad Lidge.

by rickdr23 on Jan 23, 2012 5:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Not really.

Career versus teams with less than .500 record: 3.90 ERA, 2.54 SO/BB ratio.
Career versus teams with .500+ record: 4.44 ERA, 2.04 SO/BB ratio.

by mr. maniac on Jan 23, 2012 5:57 PM EST up reply actions  

I just watched last year alot when he pitched, and was a definite line between the two.

I’m sure in his full career it hasn’t always been like that. Again, eye test haha

"Did you guys hear that? I think the ball just hit the plane"-- Jeff Bagwell, while on the plane heading back to St. Louis after Pujols Game 5 homerun off Brad Lidge.

by rickdr23 on Jan 23, 2012 6:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Probably had more to do with health, each time he comes off the DL it feels like he gets marginally worse by the start

when he’s on he’s pretty awesome to watch, but that’s anybody

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by Sandy Kazmir on Jan 23, 2012 6:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Does it factor in that Niemann's shoulder is ready to pop off at a moment's notice?

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by Sandy Kazmir on Jan 23, 2012 5:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Yup.

Fun fact: Niemann has never had a major surgery before. He has had two minor ones, but nothing majors.

Besides, Davis hasn’t shown to be more healthy than Niemann at the MLB level. And once Davis sucks again in 2012, his value will be gone.

by mr. maniac on Jan 23, 2012 5:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Besides Lee and Halladay(pitchers with flawless mechanics and ridiculously strong core), any pitcher's shoulder is due for that.

"Did you guys hear that? I think the ball just hit the plane"-- Jeff Bagwell, while on the plane heading back to St. Louis after Pujols Game 5 homerun off Brad Lidge.

by rickdr23 on Jan 23, 2012 5:54 PM EST up reply actions  

If we put this on a continuum I would guess that Niemann is much more likely to have a major shoulder surgery than most pitchers in MLB

My contention that Niemann should be traded has very little to do with their abilities and much more to do with Wade’s cost certainty vs. Niemann’s inevitable career-ending injury.

†††If you love Jesus Chris and are 100% proud of it, copy this and make it your signature!†††

by Sandy Kazmir on Jan 23, 2012 5:57 PM EST up reply actions  

That I agree with Sandy, but I hate predicting something that hasn't occurred yet over production.

Hence why I am a common baseball enthusiast and not a GM haha

"Did you guys hear that? I think the ball just hit the plane"-- Jeff Bagwell, while on the plane heading back to St. Louis after Pujols Game 5 homerun off Brad Lidge.

by rickdr23 on Jan 23, 2012 5:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Look deeper into Davis' stats.

He sucks. He really does. I see zero reason to be optimistic. On top of that, he has had injury and arm issues.

by mr. maniac on Jan 23, 2012 6:06 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree

trading Niemann would be really selling low on him, something the Rays don’t seem to do. Davis would bring back more IMO.

by JoeMasGlasses on Jan 23, 2012 6:38 PM EST up reply actions  

How much do remaining FA SP really affect trading Davis/Niemann

IMO someone especially like davis would appeal to a much different demographic, ie a team that isnt making a playoff push, doesnt want to spend big bucks, and values the 6 years of team control. I could see him going to a smaller market team like this versus a team willing to shell out the money for someone like Jackson. Like someone memtioned above, teams like pit, kc, oak, sd, or whoever could make the most sense. I still think oakland is the best match. It would be fun to see a beane/friedman trade.

by BossmanJunior333 on Jan 23, 2012 5:37 PM EST via mobile reply actions  

if davis weren't on that contract,

he’d be a good non-tender candidate, right?

Trolling the Offseason: Starring Jamie Moyer, Directed by Dan O'Dowd, with Executive Producers Dick and Charlie Monfort

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by papality on Jan 23, 2012 6:19 PM EST reply actions  

I don't know about non-tender, I mean he's not Joe Saunders or anything

†††If you love Jesus Chris and are 100% proud of it, copy this and make it your signature!†††

by Sandy Kazmir on Jan 23, 2012 6:27 PM EST up reply actions  

help solve this logjam, though

and he’s too terrible to net much in a trade

Trolling the Offseason: Starring Jamie Moyer, Directed by Dan O'Dowd, with Executive Producers Dick and Charlie Monfort

PRMLB Arizona Diamondbacks GM

by papality on Jan 23, 2012 6:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Trading Price for pennies on the dollar would help the logjam as well, doesn't mean it's a smart move

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by Sandy Kazmir on Jan 23, 2012 6:39 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

kinda different, though

price could get significant value back, while what would be a realistic return for davis?

Trolling the Offseason: Starring Jamie Moyer, Directed by Dan O'Dowd, with Executive Producers Dick and Charlie Monfort

PRMLB Arizona Diamondbacks GM

by papality on Jan 23, 2012 6:45 PM EST up reply actions  

A 50-100 prospect or more likely a couple of what ifs at the lower levels

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by Sandy Kazmir on Jan 23, 2012 7:04 PM EST up reply actions  

If all his options are picked up and he's only a 1.5 WAR pitcher every year through 2018 then he has a surplus of 11M

If you don’t pick up the options and he’s that same 1.5 WAR guy then his surplus is $14.5M. You can argue that he’ll never be a 1.5 WAR guy let alone every year of that deal, but I’d say go back to the future where you belong.

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by Sandy Kazmir on Jan 23, 2012 7:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Sorry I mucked that up a bit

three years guaranteed would be a 12.2M surplus, all options are around 8.6M. If he breaks out then you can sign him at affordable options if he doesn’t you can cut bait. That is the great value that even if you’re wrong about the guy you collect your small win and move on, but if you’re right that he can become a 2-4 WAR type guy then there is a ton of upside.

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by Sandy Kazmir on Jan 23, 2012 7:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Doesn't take much to be a 2 fWAR pitcher

He had 0.9 last year & didn’t do anything in the 1st half

I put the screw IN THE TUNA!

by Transplanted on Jan 23, 2012 8:16 PM EST up reply actions  

He has sucked in the first half the last two years.

He is going to have to mantain that low 4 FIP he had with his improved stuff and have that over a full season.

by mr. maniac on Jan 23, 2012 8:20 PM EST up reply actions  

I think he can do it

Still young enough @ 26 and actually was better in 2011 a little than 2010.

More to work with than Niemann though both may not be around much longer. Depends on how much comes through the system.

I put the screw IN THE TUNA!

by Transplanted on Jan 23, 2012 8:24 PM EST up reply actions  

bWAR has him at 1.8 in 2010, he's on pace to throw 200 innings this year after 164 in 2010 and 180 last year

It’s quite possible that they’ve been coddling him a bit with the DL stints looking more like giving him a chance to skip a couple starts and keep the arm live. When he has confidence in his curveball and is turning the fastball in on righties he’s flat out nasty. He’s had trouble being that guy over multiple starts, but part of the maturation process is being more consistent. I hope he takes that step forward this year.

Part of it was railing so hard against Edwin Jackson. Here’s a guy that had a BB% of 14.4%, 11.7% & 9.7% that I could not stand watching pitch, but he threw hard and had two good pitches and has turned into a valuable arm with bfWARs of 3.9, 2.8, and 3.6 over the last three years. Part of it is getting out of the AL East, but it’s also combining the the middle to tail of your physical talent with what’s a steadily increasing amount of mental talent. Facing a guy is a million times more effective than video so once you start to see actual tendencies on the mound you can think how to work around that.

I don’t think it would be smart to go on record as saying any player definitively can’t do this or that as I learned a humbling lesson from Casey Kotchman last year. For Wade I think a lot of his issues are between the ears so I hope he can have more trust in his breaking ball and really make some strides.

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by Sandy Kazmir on Jan 23, 2012 9:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Don't pretend that you prefer bWAR. After all, that uses ERA.

And Edwin Jackson was striking out more batters than Wade Davis is. In addition to this, batters were swinging and missing at more of Jackson’s pitches than Davis’.

I’m not saying that Davis definitively won’t be a good pitcher. I just see the odds as very low and that a lot of his value is based off of previous prospect rankings.

by mr. maniac on Jan 23, 2012 10:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Jackson wasn't strking out more batters than Davis when he was with the Rays

Jackson in his 3 years in Tampa, ages 22-24 vs. Davis so far in his career, ages 23-25.

Jackson: 380.2-IP, 15.3-K%, 11.0-BB%, 2.6-HR%, 22-LD%
Davis: 388.1-IP, 15.3-K%, 8.3-BB%, 2.9-HR%, 19-LD%

Jackson’s last season in Tampa, age 24 season, vs. Davis last year, age 25 season.

Jackson: 183.1-IP, 13.6-K%, 9.7-BB%, 2.9-HR%, 22-LD%
Davis: 184.0-IP, 13.2-K%, 7.9-BB%, 2.9-HR%, 18-LD%

While I feel Davis has been disappointing the past two seasons, I think it’s to early to write him off. Davis has been very comparable to Jackson during his tenure with the Rays. Considering his age and past top prospect pedigree, I feel he could still turn it around and become a decent SP, just like E-Jax has.

by ReyL on Jan 23, 2012 11:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Thanks for the support, those numbers sure are similar and I remember how frustrated I'd get with Jax

They’re not identical as each has (had?) different issues to work on, but talking in absolutes is a good way to end up looking foolish.

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by Sandy Kazmir on Jan 23, 2012 11:28 PM EST up reply actions  

No worries, I just think Davis still has a chance to turn it around.

I don’t like to write players off after only 2 years, especially if they were players who have had past MiLB success and top prospect status.

Now if we can trade him and get something worthwhile in return, I’m all for it.

by ReyL on Jan 23, 2012 11:41 PM EST up reply actions  

id be fine with that.

though i think you may be underrating ejax. over the last 3 years he was the 19th best starter in baseball per fWAR with 11.2 wins. id say thats betetr than a 3/4.

by rglass44 on Jan 24, 2012 10:34 AM EST up reply actions  

journeyman in terms of his lack of sticking with one team. he's been a very good starter in arizona, cws, and stl now.

hope he doesn’t come back to the ALE and nohit us again.

"Please break your typewriter and computer and never come out of your ass cave again"

by pudieron89 on Jan 24, 2012 1:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Those numbers are quite different than the K/9 numbers, but I do actually like them more.

Like I said, I’m not writing him off. Davis has been awful so far and I’m starting to question his upside.

Also, Jackson developed a good slider after leaving the Rays organization, so that could have a large effect on the K numbers.

by mr. maniac on Jan 23, 2012 11:40 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree his upside is not as high as a few years ago.

I think his ceiling is probably more of a 200 inning SP3 now. For the Rays I think his upside is more likely a 4/5, but there is still value in that when you have him signed for 3 more relatively cheap years and 3 team options.

by ReyL on Jan 23, 2012 11:45 PM EST up reply actions  

I've been saying it.

Derek Norris for Wade Davis makes so much sense. Nats could use another starter to make the playoffs and they have Ramos in the majors. And Norris is awesome. He is a walk machine. Literally.

by mr. maniac on Jan 23, 2012 8:03 PM EST up reply actions  

ooooooo I like Hundley.....he was having a good year til he got hurt.

If you believe in a religious god or deity, tell Santa hi for me too.

by rickdr23 on Jan 23, 2012 7:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Hundley and Shields

Nicholas John Hundley (born September 8, 1983, in Corvallis, Oregon) is a Major League Baseball catcher for the San Diego Padres. He was called up to the majors for the first time on July 3, 2008. As a 12-year-old he played on the Santa Clarita Mudcats. Other Mudcats alumni are Ryan Braun and James Shields.

Didn’t know about this..

by Patrick Relano Kim on Jan 23, 2012 7:47 PM EST up reply actions  

There are a lot of flags with hundley

7.1 BB% and 24 K% last year, which was actually worse than 2010. 2% increase in ld% and absurdly high .362 BABIP lead to the 34 point uptick in ba. I really dont see much to like.

by BossmanJunior333 on Jan 23, 2012 8:24 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Also

Ironically hit a lot better at petco, opsing over .900. He also hit for much more power at home.

by BossmanJunior333 on Jan 23, 2012 8:37 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

I guess its encouraging that he hits so well im an extreme pitchers park

But the k/bb still worries me. Obviously the ba and obp was due to a flukey high babip.

by BossmanJunior333 on Jan 23, 2012 8:50 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Seems like a slighty better version of shoppach

Similar bb%, lower k% (33% for shop), similar iso, similar ld% (pre rays), and good defense. For some reason shops ld% fell off a cliff with the rays, probably because his z-contact dropped by almost 10%. So hundley is shoppach with better contact, about 15% difference.

by BossmanJunior333 on Jan 23, 2012 9:13 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Moore to the bullpen?

Well, that would be the same logic as Longoria to DH, wouldn’t it?

by cocanat on Jan 23, 2012 7:59 PM EST reply actions  

It's not meant to be a long-term solution

Start him off in the bullpen, hopefully either Niemann or Davis will acquire significant trade value by June, trade one of them.

by PGP on Jan 23, 2012 8:03 PM EST up reply actions  

you don't limit positional players' PT.

"Please break your typewriter and computer and never come out of your ass cave again"

by pudieron89 on Jan 24, 2012 9:14 AM EST up reply actions  

you would

"Please break your typewriter and computer and never come out of your ass cave again"

by pudieron89 on Jan 24, 2012 9:14 AM EST up reply actions  

Factor in Davis's uncertainty going forward versus Hundley not yet being able to play a fulll season and there is an equalization

Both make similar amounts this season with arbitration for Hundley(if he puts up solid numbers) possibly equaling Davis’s contract over the next two(2.8 and 4.8).The options add security and at a risk but one that can be not picked up. Hundley may have one year before Grandal is ready and Davis could be expendable this season. Rays get a potential full time improving catcher for three seasons and the Padres get a potential workhorse(200+ innings) for a rotation that could use some stability now and has their better prospects still a couple of seasons away.

by budman3 on Jan 23, 2012 8:10 PM EST reply actions  

I'd far prefer Moore in AAA than in the pen

But he needs to be in the MLB rotation from Day 1

Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla

by FreeZorilla on Jan 23, 2012 8:52 PM EST reply actions  

Not that it was suggested by the site

But by those who have access to phones & free time

I put the screw IN THE TUNA!

by Transplanted on Jan 23, 2012 9:10 PM EST up reply actions  

It woulldn't make much sense to make your #1 pick a reliever

especially when he still has ace potential. Moore just has ace written all over him, I’d rather have him start opening day than start in the pen.

by JoeMasGlasses on Jan 23, 2012 9:21 PM EST up reply actions  

"was"

"Please break your typewriter and computer and never come out of your ass cave again"

by pudieron89 on Jan 24, 2012 9:15 AM EST up reply actions  

Been starter whole career, has a easy fluid motion that doesn't yell injury, we have three lefties including a power arm in McGee

starts in playoffs, excels, sign him to a long term deal, then shove him in the bullpen or to Durham……makes absolute sense

If you believe in a religious god or deity, tell Santa hi for me too.

by rickdr23 on Jan 23, 2012 8:59 PM EST up reply actions  

It would be a short term move, as I'm proposing. Although it isn't optimal for getting the most wins possible out of the 2012 squad, the cost in runs would be minimal (a fraction of a win).

In turn, we’d get an opportunity to build Niemann/Davis’s value (which wouldn’t happen if either were moved to the pen) and sell high on whichever one performs better.

by PGP on Jan 23, 2012 9:01 PM EST up reply actions  

that seems pretty ridiculous to play with a kids head a little

just to freaking build up a little value for two pitchers to trade for someone, while also messing with the overall makeup of a team…really stretching. They aren’t playing the damn game or season to build up value for some back end rotation pitchers, they are what they are as of now.

If you believe in a religious god or deity, tell Santa hi for me too.

by rickdr23 on Jan 23, 2012 9:03 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't see the hurry to trade Davis/Niemann.

Teams will be willing to give up more as opening day approaches and they don’t have their rotation set. The Rays don’t have to make a move while a team that thinks it is one pitcher away will once there aren’t any options in the FA market (Oswalt, Jackson)

by JoeMasGlasses on Jan 23, 2012 9:17 PM EST reply actions  

Thank you. I don't even know why we talk about this AGAIN. We have a surplus great, everyone knows we do

So when a team figures out what they need, if they need it, AF will make the proper move. So let’s end the speculation. Moore is starting, can only start, and will start. Period. Dumb to even think that.

If you believe in a religious god or deity, tell Santa hi for me too.

by rickdr23 on Jan 23, 2012 9:21 PM EST up reply actions  

January is Friedmans month

Big trades rarely happen during ST and I cant recall Friedman ever making a notable ST move.

by BossmanJunior333 on Jan 23, 2012 11:34 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Maybe not dumb, just kind of over thinking.

I understand the logic but its definitely not the best course of action. When you have a guy you think is an ace you want to make every decision with that in mind. The Rays made it very clear their intentions by starting him in game 1 of the ALDS and then locking him up long term.

by JoeMasGlasses on Jan 23, 2012 9:25 PM EST reply actions  

Betamit to the O's

Poor Collette

Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla

by FreeZorilla on Jan 23, 2012 10:44 PM EST reply actions  

Betemit to the Orioles

How do you think Collete feels right about now?

joeybw, on why he was banned for half a day:

"Might of been grammar I keep getting that "would have" thing wrong

Not on purpose, mods, wish it was….."

Classic.

by sc_monsta1015 on Jan 23, 2012 11:52 PM EST reply actions  

no no no

First, you don’t take an ace-grade starting pitching prospect and move him to the pen, change his routine for a year, etc. More harm than good. That’s what you do with your worst starter who has less upside.

You also don’t take one of the guys who gives you the best chance to win and reduce his workload. It’s like using Longoria as a 7th inning sub every day.

by themiddle54 on Jan 23, 2012 11:54 PM EST via iPhone app reply actions  

Can someone count the number of times the word "no" has been used in this thread?

It has to be a DRB record

joeybw, on why he was banned for half a day:

"Might of been grammar I keep getting that "would have" thing wrong

Not on purpose, mods, wish it was….."

Classic.

by sc_monsta1015 on Jan 23, 2012 11:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Sheesh this piece certainly wasn't popular

As long as it doesn’t go the way of Cobb/Fleming I’m okay with that though

by benderbrodriguez on Jan 24, 2012 9:47 AM EST up reply actions  

i think it's an interesting idea to keep his pitches down.

"Please break your typewriter and computer and never come out of your ass cave again"

by pudieron89 on Jan 24, 2012 10:12 AM EST up reply actions  

Low pitches and starting are not mutually exclusive

Skip his starts around the All-Star break. Give him an extra day here and there. Keep him to 185 IP or so. Putting him in the bullpen changes his entire routine. It’s something you do with a guy who’s little more than back-of-the-rotation filler, not a potential perennial CYA candidate.

by themiddle54 on Jan 24, 2012 2:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Watch it--I already broke the news

joeybw, on why he was banned for half a day:

"Might of been grammar I keep getting that "would have" thing wrong

Not on purpose, mods, wish it was….."

Classic.

by sc_monsta1015 on Jan 24, 2012 12:08 AM EST up reply actions  

I wouldn't wear that shit, turn your shirt purple.

"Please break your typewriter and computer and never come out of your ass cave again"

by pudieron89 on Jan 24, 2012 9:17 AM EST up reply actions  

Betemit signed with the Orioles

Jason Collette buffalo buffalo buffalo?

"Please break your typewriter and computer and never come out of your ass cave again"

by pudieron89 on Jan 24, 2012 9:17 AM EST reply actions  

That is an awful idea

Moore does not need to be babied because the Rays have properly prepared him for the rigors of a full season. He is probably the most talented pitcher on that team right now, the rays would be intentionally hurting themselves.

Also, if your going to make Moore a reliever when his body is properly conditioned for 200 innings, what are you going to do in 2013 after a year of throwing maybe 65 innings and expecting him to suddenly be able to go back to 200 inning shape. That’s a large risk for his health and your future.

I’m a yankee fan but I am also a NC native so I love the durham Bulls….this idea you are proposing is an awful waste of a great talent.

by Yankees199 on Feb 1, 2012 6:40 PM EST reply actions  

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