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Does Andrew Friedman Have A Patience Problem?

If there's one tenet to the Church of Rays Baseball, it's that Andrew Friedman is the one, true Almighty. He has led our franchise to the Promised Land, and he can do no wrong. The only thing more powerful than his golden calculator is his brain. Question his logic and decision-making at your own peril.

I'm exaggerating, but we all know it's true; it's difficult to find fault with Friedman. He draws praise from all over the baseball landscape for his prowess at building a roster on a budget, and he's turned the Rays into a juggernaut of talent. Sure, he's had a couple moves that were stinkers, but they get drowned out by the overwhelming majority of his deals that turn out favorable for the Rays.

But everybody has their vices. I'm constantly fighting my inner procrastinator, and I have an unhealthy addiction with superlatives in my writing and speech. Surely even Friedman can't be perfect, right? Even he has to make mistakes every now and then...I think?

In the wake of the Anthony Rizzo trade, this question keeps popping up in my head. And not solely because of the trade; this topic was bandied about on Twitter last week after Jonah Keri published a piece on Grantland about small-market teams. His article made a number of different points, but the overriding theme was that small-market teams don't need to operate like they only have a "window" of success before rebuilding again; if teams were as smart as the Rays, they could continuously build and sustain their success nigh indefinitely.

In other words, Billy Beane can't shake a stick at Andrew Friedman. He may have led the A's on an eight-year run of success, but the A's are now poised for their sixth-straight season finishing at or below .500. Is Beane a classic example of "Even smart guys can make mistakes (and get unlucky)", or has Friedman taken Beane's Moneyball idea and crafted it into its purest, most perfect form?

Star-divide

Obviously, the only way to get a true answer to these questions is to have a time machine. As much as it's fun to compare Beane and Friedman, the Rays have only been a successful team for four seasons; Beane's A's didn't win fewer than 87 games for eight seasons in a row (albeit in a weaker division and in a less enlightened era). As of now, the Rays may look poised to continue with their success for year and year to come, but who knows what may happen? Some bad injury luck here, a couple of fizzled prospects there -- and just like that, we could be singing a different song.

The Rays are still walking a narrow tightrope, and to ignore that fact downplays how impressive their current success is. They may have one of the smartest front offices in baseball, and maybe Josh Kalk has helped them discovered some tricks to keep their pitchers healthier than most. But when your margin for success is so slim, eventually bad luck is going to catch up with you. Even the most cerebral poker players lose sometimes.

This brings me back to my first question: does Friedman have a weakness? I think if you were to poll the community here, we'd come up with one common answer: if he does, it's that he's too patient. Too stingy with his prospects. He clings onto minor league players like a hoarder does to old magazines, to the point where he won't roll the dice on acquiring a player like Anthony Rizzo or Brendon Allen. Both these players were acquired relatively cheaply; the Rays could have afforded any of them without scratching the surface of their minor league depth. And yet, despite that they play a position of need for the Rays, Friedman passed on them both.

I don't think this is a simply a case of fans being unreasonable and impatient. Kevin Goldstein has opined on a number of occasions this same complaint about Friedman, and it's not like we were out on a limb on choosing trade targets (just ask Goldstein, Baseball America, Keith Law, etc.). We can appeal to authority all we want -- Oh, the Rays must have known something about these players -- but after awhile, I get tired of simply assuming that the Rays are faultless.

So does Friedman have a patience problem? I think that you could make the case that he's sometimes too patient -- Jason Hammel trade, anyone? Or Andy Sonnanstine's tenure in the rotation last year? -- and that it's likely his only real "fault", as minor as it may be. But at the same time, his patience pays huge dividends for the Rays more often than it doesn't, and there are logical explanations every time he frustrates us with a non-move. Both Rizzo and Allen had large question marks surrounding them; the Rays can fill first base with Matt Joyce next season; and Brandon Guyer could be an underrated offensive force in the outfield.

Also, Friedman's patience is a sign of something important: that he's learned from Billy Beane's example.

One of the common critiques of Moneyball is that it ignores the largest reason why the Athletics were so successful back in the early 2000s: their starting rotation. Mark Mulder, Barry Zito, and Tim Hudson were a dominating trio, and the A's started to fall apart once their rotation got traded away. It's difficult to find a whole new batch of talented young starting pitchers every 3-4 years, and Friedman has taken that lesson to heart. Once the Rays find a talented, young player -- regardless of if they're a pitcher or not, actually -- he holds onto them as long as humanly possible.

Through necessity -- remember the talk about margins up above? -- the Rays abhor risk. And at the end of the day, I think that's why Friedman passed on Rizzo and Allen; the potential payoff was great, but the risk was simply too much to take on. As a small-market team, once you start banking on luck, you'd better start getting used to the idea of rebuilding.

Will the Rays end up acquiring a young first baseman this offseason? Will they still trade Wade Davis or Jeff Niemann? I'm not so sure anymore. I think they'll definitely buy a couple low-risk hitters off the free agent market, but due to the lack of near-major-league-ready options at first or in the outfield on the trade market, I could see the Rays keeping both Niems and Davis...or trading one of them for a player with better upside that's further away from the majors.

Nobody is perfect, not even Friedman. I'd probably better get used to being periodically frustrated with his patience, though, because I don't see it changing anytime soon. Risk management isn't exactly a sexy way to build a team, but hey, whatever it takes to keep the Rays' window open as long as possible.

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I actually think the Friedman's patience is his best quality.

It shows that he doesn’t overreact over things that, in the long run, mean little. This patience works very well for sustaining long term success.

Kinda OT: Think about this for a second. The Rays, Jays, and Nats all had interest in Rizzo too. You can draw two conclusions from that, and both satisfy me.

by mr. maniac on Jan 9, 2012 11:43 AM EST reply actions  

Oh, definitely....agreed. I'm not questioning his patience in general.

It’s amazing. Just saying that he sometimes takes it to the utmost extreme.

And I can even rationalize his more extreme bouts of patience and risk abhorrence…it’s just sometimes a bit much, and I think if there’s one area you can possibly critique Friedman, it’s where you draw the line on what’s too much risk.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.

by Steve Slowinski on Jan 9, 2012 11:52 AM EST up reply actions  

Pat Burrell's his only real foray into that area, right?

I wouldn’t really count Percival in that category, but I guess you could argue that. Soriano possibly counts, but that was technically a trade.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.

by Steve Slowinski on Jan 9, 2012 11:59 AM EST up reply actions  

I think it's too early to tell.

Rumor has it that in 2005 he wanted to pick McCutchen but gave way to the old guard and drafted Townshend. 2006 we took Longoria and everyone knows how that worked out. 2007 we took Price and again that has worked. 2008-2011 we’ve taken high school kids that are all very young , so the book is still out. Granted in hindsight taking Posey with the #1 overall pick would have been the right move. I think the 12 million dollar bonus demands scared them off a bit and Beckham was rated higher by most scouts at draft time.

by Peter Piontek on Jan 9, 2012 12:54 PM EST up reply actions  

a lot of disappointments in that '08 draft

Pedro Alvarez and Gordon Beckham, just to pick two other players under consideration. Smoak, too (although there was never any indication the Rays would take him).

by AndrewTorrez on Jan 9, 2012 1:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Yup

so far the entire class looks rather underwhelming

by Peter Piontek on Jan 9, 2012 1:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Don't forget Matusz

woof

I put the screw IN THE TUNA!

by Transplanted on Jan 9, 2012 1:19 PM EST up reply actions  

What happened to him?

he was a guy that i was completely sold on.

by Peter Piontek on Jan 9, 2012 1:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Dusty breaks them in the majors

Baltimore does it right before

I put the screw IN THE TUNA!

by Transplanted on Jan 9, 2012 1:30 PM EST up reply actions  

they appear to have no conditioning staff

Matusz showed up last year looking like a high-schooler, with basically no upper-body definition, really rail thin, it was so weird. And then his FB sat in the mid-to-low 80s.

I think if Matusz had been in the Rays (or almost any other) organization, he wouldn’t be looking like a bust pick. But that’s total speculation of course.

by AndrewTorrez on Jan 9, 2012 1:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Friedman and his scouts draft well

They develop well and they know the exact player to give the big deal to right away (Longoria) but on the FA and trade market, AF has never impressed me with his ability to get a big bat. Pena only happened because Norton got hurt. “The Hit Show” was the other extreme, Pre – Friedman and that was brutal but I wish AF could find the middle ground because this is 2 years in a row, good enough to make the playoffs, not good enough to advance and it’s always because we couldn’t hit, we always pitch.

Matt Moore. That is all.

by joeybw on Jan 9, 2012 12:04 PM EST reply actions  

lol

“The 2010 Rays were not good enough to advance in the playoffs.” -joeybw.

by mr. maniac on Jan 9, 2012 12:45 PM EST up reply actions  

In all seriousness, the Friedman drafts are too early to judge.

However, they don’t appear to be very good drafts.

Also, what you may consider luck is what Friedman may call a strength. Signing high upside players to milb deals isn’t purely lcuk, although some is involved.

by mr. maniac on Jan 9, 2012 12:47 PM EST up reply actions  

I never said they were poor.

I just think that people tend to overrate his drafting. After all, people forget that it takes 5 or so years to get a good feel for the draft.

by mr. maniac on Jan 9, 2012 1:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Ah okay

I took not very good as being bad for you.

Of his 6 drafts. 2006 is an A+, 2007 is an A-, 2008 is a B-, with the other 3 INCs right now, though 2009 is like at best a C- right now unless Bailey makes the jump since he looks closest.

I put the screw IN THE TUNA!

by Transplanted on Jan 9, 2012 1:19 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't know about that

I’d say:

2005: B- (only Hellickson from that draft, the rest busted. But who knows how much of this draft was Friedman)

2006: A+ (Longoria, Cobb and Jennings is a draft anyone would be jealous of)

2007: B+ (Price over Weiters was the right move, and Moore pushes this from B- to B+, but enough other bad choices to not get an A)

2008: INC, leaning towards C, but it all hinges on Beckham. Could end up being anywhere from B to F. The fact we didn’t draft Posey alone makes rating this an A impossible, even if Beckham does eventually become a star.

2009: No better than C- (Considering almost everyone from the draft is already gone, I think it’s safe to evaluate this one as being bad. Could end up being an F)

2010: INC, but looking like about a C to C-

2011: INC, but I said about A-/B+ at the time

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Jan 9, 2012 1:50 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree it's too early to judge

But if people continue on their current developmental tracks, we’ll end up with one 4th outfielder type, a utility infielder and a reliever.

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Jan 9, 2012 1:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Their numbers

Of course they could improve, but current trajectory I don’t see either one as a full-time player. I do think Vettleson is significantly more likely to improve than Brett or Deitrich, and I assume at least one of those two will become a utility INF or better. Of those three, I probably like Dietrich the most. But this is just playing the numbers. If they hit their 50% outcomes, that’s about where I think they wind up. People almost universally think prospects will do better than they actually do.

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Jan 9, 2012 2:02 PM EST up reply actions  

If Brett can stick @ 2B, he probably will make it

Really nice year last year, hoping he can continue

I put the screw IN THE TUNA!

by Transplanted on Jan 9, 2012 2:06 PM EST up reply actions  

I really think Dietrich is more likely

Brett: .300 .370 .471 with a .932 fielding% as a 2B in low-SS
Dietrich: .277 .346 .502 with a .952 fielding% as a SS in low-A, with twice the sample

Brett is younger, but Dietrich is still more projectable. Brett does have a standout speed tool, while Dietrich doesn’t have any standout tools. I still think Dietrich is a significantly better prospect at this point.

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Jan 9, 2012 2:18 PM EST up reply actions  

I think there's something to be said for Brett's ability to put bat on ball

Obviously it doesn’t matter if he’s hitting like Mike Sheridan or Jake Jeffries, but so far he isn’t. Why can’t Brett become Alberto Callaspo, who has a 103 OPS+ since 2008?

Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com

by Imperialism32 on Jan 9, 2012 2:23 PM EST up reply actions  

He can

But conversely, why can’t Dietrich become Ben Zobrist, who’s a lot better than Albert Callaspo?

Dietrich is 2 levels closer to the majors, played in more of a pitcher’s league than Brett, had about the same isolated patience, about .050 higher isolated power with significantly more HR power and played better defense at a position higher on the defensive spectrum,

I’m not saying either one will hit their ceiling, I just think Dietrich has both a higher ceiling and a higher floor.

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Jan 9, 2012 2:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Because Zobrist is an outlier (who showed much better patience in the minors anyway)

I get your point though, although I disagree on the defense and think Dietrich will have to move off the middle

Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com

by Imperialism32 on Jan 9, 2012 2:48 PM EST up reply actions  

fielding%...

"I don't always post off-topic, but when I do, I post at http://ottotd.com" - $tinky $tu
"Please break your typewriter and computer and never come out of your ass cave again"

by pudieron89 on Jan 9, 2012 3:47 PM EST up reply actions  

I could see that happening.

but truthfully drafting outside the top 12 makes it much harder to nail a draft. let me guess , you see Vettelson as the 4th OF, Brett and the Utility Infielder and Markel as the RP?

by Peter Piontek on Jan 9, 2012 2:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Not exactly

It’s more like fuzzy math. If everyone hits their 50% median, (a) probably one of Sale or Vettleson (more likely Drew) becomes a 4th outfielder/platoon player type, (b) probably one of Dietrich or Brett becomes a utility infielder type and © probably one of the pitchers, whether Markel or Riefenhauser or whoever else, probably becomes a reliever.

Of course, if everyone hits their 90% projection, then it becomes an A draft, as we’d have an above-average outfielder, another 4th outfielder type, our starting middle infield, a dominant closer and a loogy. The problem with only thinking about upside is that you’re only looking at the 90% projection, but only 10% of players will hit their 90% projection by definition.

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Jan 9, 2012 2:11 PM EST up reply actions  

I was conflicted over going A-/B+ for 2007-gave it the extra bit since Moore is pretty special

The saving grace for 2008 is that they still have time on their side, though not much longer.

2009 is a giant mess with the best hope being Bailey out of the Malm/Glaesmann/Bailey trio. If only Kenny signed :(.

Not high on Vettleson or Brett though I’m guessing for 2010

I put the screw IN THE TUNA!

by Transplanted on Jan 9, 2012 1:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Jeff Malm

2010: .220/.296/.310 with 3 HR
2011, June + August + September: .218 with 3 HR
2011, July: .314/.435/.608

Let’s see more than one big month out of him.

Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com

by Imperialism32 on Jan 9, 2012 2:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Bailey hit RHP very well in 2011

So there’s at least a sliver of hope he can do something

I put the screw IN THE TUNA!

by Transplanted on Jan 9, 2012 4:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Vogt, Cruz and Barnese are still fringy from 07.

Moore and Price are 2 potential CY candidates. Thats pretty damn strong. WHats the best 1-2 pitcher combo taken in the same draft? It has a chance.

Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla

by FreeZorilla on Jan 9, 2012 7:49 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't know if poor is the right characterization

But the vast majority of value we’ve gotten out of his drafts have been from the very high picks. A few others have panned out well, but it seems like a lot of quantity without as much quality.

2005 (the transition year) – drafted Wade Townsend first, never made it past AA. None of the picks from the first three rounds made the majors, and the third rounder didn’t even sign. Hellickson was drafted in the 4th, and considered a great pick even at the time. I believe the only other player from that draft still with the team is John Matulia.

2006 – Longoria (which was almost a no-brainer pick), Cobb and Jennings, but little else of consequence. Our second round pick later got traded for peanuts and was considered an overdraft at the time. Third round pick never even signed. Only players who still have a shot – Nevin Ashley and Kyeong Kang.

2007 – David Price went 1/1, but he couldn’t have gone wrong there. It does appear that Price is the better pick than Weiters though. Moore was drafted in the 8th, and it appears he’ll be great. Other than that, nobody made the majors, and only about 5 guys are still with the team. Second round pick was considered a massive overdraft at the time and pitched a grand total of 29 innings in the minors before retiring. Most notable remaining players are probably Nick Barnese and Stephen Vogt. This was that weird draft where we took like 5 college seniors in the first 12 picks.

After this point, it’s hard to truly evaluate, but here’s how I see it.

2008 – Tim Beckham went 1/1, which in retrospect was probably the wrong decision. He still has a chance, but has lost a lot of his shine. Looks like a bust draft overall. While Lobstein looked like a good #2 pick at the time, he hasn’t panned out, and for the next 6 rounds we took only players who were considered to be overdrafts at the time. Nobody has made the majors, and of the players who remain with the team, the most promising looking ones other than Beckham are Ty Morrison and Marquis Fleming.

2009 – Couldn’t sign either our first round pick or our second round pick. Because we didn’t sign them, we were able to sign a few more high upside later picks, but none of them have really panned out. Most guys are still with the team, so things could change, but at this point the only draftees who are still somewhat legitimate prospects are Jeff Malm and Ty Bortnick, with the chance for some other higher upside guys like Partridge, Bailey and Glaesmann to possibly blossom.

2010 – Six picks in the top 3 rounds. The Sale pick was lauded at the time, but is already being called a bust by many. Vettleson, Dietrich and Brett all look promising, but none of them are even top 300 overall type prospects. Other than Parker Markel, CJ Reifenhauser and maybe Phil Wunderlich, it doesn’t look like the later round picks will provide much.

2011 – The book is still out, obviously. We had a top of first round picks. The first two were universally lauded as solid picks, and after that there were a few more reaches. Despite a dearth of power hitters in our minor league system, they still couldn’t find one power hitter to draft in 13 top round picks. Way too early to even guess on whether this was a good draft.

Has he been horrible in the draft? No, but I’m not sure that, given our draft positions and the like, that we’ve done much better than average in this span (and since 2008 I’d say we’ve done below average). Top 3 overall picks should become stars and are considered a failure if they don’t. After that, there are two really promising guys, and a bunch of B to B+ type prospects who may pan out but most of whom probably won’t.

Look at our top 20 community prospects even. Only half of them were drafted by us at all, only Matt Moore was of the top 4, and several of the guys who are ranked are purely prospective on our part, as they yet to play an inning in the minors. Take away Matt Moore, and we probably have a bottom half minor league system, despite 19 top 3 round picks in the past 2 years. Time will tell, how things go, but it doesn’t seem like the draft is a special forte of this front office.

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Jan 9, 2012 1:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Too many HS players to really go either way for 09-11

Though 2010 is looking very promising. Bowling Green is going to be a fun team.

I put the screw IN THE TUNA!

by Transplanted on Jan 9, 2012 1:48 PM EST up reply actions  

With a deeper look , couldn't the same be said of most teams?

we’ve graduated so much talent to the majors and still rank in the top 5 for farm systems. most draft picks bust. it’s just how it is.

by Peter Piontek on Jan 9, 2012 1:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Maybe I'm way off

But the way I see it, an average draft is one major league regular, one bench type player and one fringe callup, so that’s what I’m basing it on. However, if you have a top 3 pick, that should push up to one star, one bench player and one fringe callup. Just based on the quick smell test, we’ve only beaten the average half of the time. I’m not saying the draft is a weakness, but I think there’s a long enough track record to definitively say it’s not a strength.

Our system looks okay, but it’s not because of the draft. It’s because of trades and international signings. I’m not sure we’re considered to be a top 5 system either.

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Jan 9, 2012 1:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Yup

Without Hak-Ju Lee it’s arguably Matt Moore and no one else in the top 100

Vroom vroom party starter
www.raysprospects.com

by Imperialism32 on Jan 9, 2012 2:01 PM EST up reply actions  

And even the guys who have recently graduated

Mostly came via trade or were drafted under the Naimoli regime.

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Jan 9, 2012 1:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Agreed

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Jan 9, 2012 2:19 PM EST up reply actions  

OK, I was probably exaggerating

But I think each of them would miss the top 10 for a majority of teams’ systems. Maybe Vettleson breaks more top 10s than not, but almost certainly not the others.

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Jan 9, 2012 3:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Huh?

Brett was a B-.

I went through Sickles lists, and I didn’t see a single list where all the players were A-B. He would have made all but a very small amount.

by mr. maniac on Jan 9, 2012 6:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Another 05 is Wrigley, 06 - O'Malley

Gabe “Peanuts” Gross

Follow Me on Twitter @FreeZorilla

by FreeZorilla on Jan 9, 2012 7:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh gawd, not Will Kline again

Overdraft? Okay. Massive? I believe it was KLaw who had him projected 2nd round. Too bad he blew his arm (shoulder) out.

Basically, I think you are exaggerating and being overly critical.

http://www.draysbay.com/2011/10/20/2502726/the-rays-ability-to-draft-and-develop-posistional-players

Your source for replacement level commentary

by RATW on Jan 9, 2012 10:40 PM EST up reply actions  

With a small market, the downside to a bad move is much larger.

Risk aversion implies that given equal expected payoff he would choose the one with lesser variance. I wonder if what we perceive as risk aversion is actually just optimal play coupled with a correct weighting of the payoffs in his situation.

And I do think that part of the strategy to keep the Rays competitive is the belief that he can win by playing optimally, and that he doesn’t need to resort to high variance strategies. I’m not sure if that’s something Billy Beane believed/believes. And with it, AF is proving to me that the competitive balance maybe isn’t as bad as I had thought. When the smart small market teams need resort to David strategies, the system needs to be changed, but AF doesn’t seem to think it’s at that point.

by Whelk on Jan 9, 2012 12:12 PM EST reply actions  

Your last paragraph really hit the nail on the head, I think.

I’ll be interested to see how his strategy plays out in the long run. Maybe it is sustainable long-term while Beane’s wasn’t?

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.

by Steve Slowinski on Jan 9, 2012 12:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Patience

I think the explanation for his patience is that he and Kotchman have an agreement that the Rays will match offers with other teams, so Friedman can operate under that assumption.

He has continued to compare talent as well as any GM I can think of, so I necessarily feel those trades would not have been worth making.

Honestly, Kotchman is a far less risky player than any of those trade targets, and other trades will come up in the future. I might be giving him too much credit, but I feel like he’s got something up his sleeve.

by Ian Moore on Jan 9, 2012 12:31 PM EST reply actions  

I think Joyce is the fallback option for 1B, not Kotchman.

Although I’m sure the Rays know they could get Kotchman cheap as a fallback as well if needed. He’s not going to break the bank this offseason.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.

by Steve Slowinski on Jan 9, 2012 12:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Kotchman at this point would be thankful to get a good starting job

Options have really dwindled for the 1B/DH market

I put the screw IN THE TUNA!

by Transplanted on Jan 9, 2012 12:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Bad Scenario

The Yankees or Red Sox sign him as a backup to hurt the Rays
He would play in those parks too

by Ian Moore on Jan 9, 2012 12:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Eh, Kotch anything to get worried about.

Losing out on him would probably make the Rays better, so I’m okay with it.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.

by Steve Slowinski on Jan 9, 2012 12:57 PM EST up reply actions  

comparing talent

I think you’re right about comparing talent, he’s great at it, which is why his trades have worked out well for us overall. I think that’s probably his top strength, definitely better than drafting even though the book is still out of that overal.

by joaker5 on Jan 9, 2012 6:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Market principles would suggest buy low and sell high

I think the value of Shields is as high as it will ever while Davis and Neimann are low right now. My guess is he is really shopping Price for a boat load an holding onto Neimann/Davis/price, hoping to improve their value down the road.
With that said, would you trade Shields for Rizzo? No way!! I think the real question is who has enough to make sense for us to give back Shields?

by playjoyce on Jan 9, 2012 12:58 PM EST via mobile reply actions  

I'm not certain Shields can't repeat 2011.

He fixed the mechanics flaw that caused the horrible 2010. If he repeats his 2011 then his value will be absurdly high. Plus he is the one guy that we can bank on getting 200+ innings.

by Peter Piontek on Jan 9, 2012 1:02 PM EST up reply actions  

I hope so

But in some ways, that logic is based on luck too. What we know right now is the Shields is worth more than ever while Davis, Neimann and Price are lower than they have been before. That is what we absolutely know. Whether those three will get back to what they were perceived to be before is an unknown, but The value of Shields is as high as it will ever be due to age, contract management and performance. If the Nationals really are bringing in Prince, then my guess is that they will be looking for a proven arm and be willing to give up major prospects. This could be what the Rays are waiting for.

by playjoyce on Jan 9, 2012 1:08 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Nats traded everything away for Gio

They’d need to move Harper to get anyone else.

I put the screw IN THE TUNA!

by Transplanted on Jan 9, 2012 1:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Harper, strasburg and some others for Upton and Shields?

If Nats want to win now, this may be possible. The Nats may not think Strasburg is recovering well enough.

by playjoyce on Jan 9, 2012 1:23 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Haha that would be a nice dream.

Strasburg looked pretty damn good in his limited work last year. I still believe Harper is a once in a generation type talent and is literally untouchable in any trade.

by Peter Piontek on Jan 9, 2012 1:26 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't mean to get too far into this, but . . .

What about the mechanical flaw caused the horrible 2010? How can we say “cause” in this case with any certainty?

We have a huge body of evidence about the way baseball works that says that 2010 was a weird, outlier of a year, and wouldn’t repeat itself. We have a fixed “mechanical flaw” that doesn’t show up so much in objective pitching data, and we have some pretty smart changes in pitch selection that do show up in objective pitching data.

Those changes can probably account for some improvement, to call the attribute them the majority of the cause for 2010 to 2011 Shields is going pretty far out on a limb. 2010 Shields was a really good pitcher with some pretty bad results that were probably not repeatable. 2011 Shields was a somewhat better pitcher with some very nice results (ones that were not as far an outlier as his 2010).

by Whelk on Jan 9, 2012 1:19 PM EST up reply actions  

The flaw i'm talking about was the over rotation in his windup.

just going off of memory, it gave him a nice bump in velocity but his command bit the dust. Shields body of work prior to 2010 was a fairly solid one but 2011 was exceptional. Everyone just seems to think he’s going to take a large step back in 2012 and i’m just not so sure he didn’t turn the corner as a pitcher and will continue to be elite going forward.

by Peter Piontek on Jan 9, 2012 1:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Shields's 2010 SIERA was second best of his career (behind 2011)

He walked more per nine in 2011 than he did in 2010. I’m not disagreeing about Shields having excellent seasons to come. I just think he’s not all that different a guy than he was in 2010.

by Whelk on Jan 9, 2012 1:32 PM EST up reply actions  

2011 had fewer FBs down the middle

really the only major difference

I put the screw IN THE TUNA!

by Transplanted on Jan 9, 2012 1:33 PM EST up reply actions  

this was the command issue.

i surely don’t think he intended to leave 91mph heaters down the middle but he did and they got belted. that was his only downfall in 2010 and can really be chalked up to a bad year. the issues got into his head.

by Peter Piontek on Jan 9, 2012 1:37 PM EST up reply actions  

down the dickhole*

"I don't always post off-topic, but when I do, I post at http://ottotd.com" - $tinky $tu
"Please break your typewriter and computer and never come out of your ass cave again"

by pudieron89 on Jan 9, 2012 3:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Penn State Little League

"I don't always post off-topic, but when I do, I post at http://ottotd.com" - $tinky $tu
"Please break your typewriter and computer and never come out of your ass cave again"

by pudieron89 on Jan 9, 2012 6:09 PM EST up reply actions  

no heavy lifting required

A lot of focus on what holes the Rays have to repair for 2012. I think Friedman just looks at the available pool of players and economics and feels that he has more than enough options to wait things out.

As for dealing a pitcher, Friedman knows that the market for pitching never stops. Maybe the return won’t be a major league player to fill one of the holes on the roster maybe it will be a couple higher ceiling guys from the high A – AA ranks, but he knows he can move a starter at any time.

Rays, as we stand today, are in great shape for 2012 so I say stay the course.

by MrNegative1 on Jan 9, 2012 1:13 PM EST reply actions  

I'm leaning towards that myself

Very little in the way of getting a better 1B in a trade than say like Pena for 1yr, but getting a A+ 1B that can be a stud is likelier scenario now.

I put the screw IN THE TUNA!

by Transplanted on Jan 9, 2012 1:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Love him or hate him, he's one of the best prospect guys around.

Feel free to ignore the paragraph if you prefer, but I’ve come around on KG a lot…his analysis and scouting stuff tends to be very well thought out.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.

by Steve Slowinski on Jan 9, 2012 2:10 PM EST up reply actions  

His network of contacts is amazing

Let’s just say he vets everything & has contacts all the way up in a lot of organizations.

Not bad for a guy that never went to college and got his start as an independent blogger by night while doing IT consulting by day

I'm not a fanboy, I'm an awesome dude

by Jason Collette on Jan 9, 2012 3:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Maybe I'm wrong, I've just never found him to be credible

And I’ll admit I have no specific allegations or anything, he just always stuck me as smug and self-promoting.

The college thing is part of that, too. It’s really not a badge of honor in my opinion – we should applaud people who find success regardless of how they obtained it (excluding anything illegal/immoral). I honestly have no idea if John Sickels graduated fourth grade or has four Ph.Ds but I’ll still read what he writes because I think he’s honest and thoughtful about what he says.

by Barnacles on Jan 9, 2012 5:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, I used to be on the fence about him, but he's definitely one of my favorites these days.

He seems like a great guy, and he’s definitely a good analyst on top of that.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.

by Steve Slowinski on Jan 9, 2012 5:23 PM EST up reply actions  

I have a feeling that by spring training we'll look back at this article and realize how whiny and unnecessary it was.

"I don't always post off-topic, but when I do, I post at http://ottotd.com" - $tinky $tu
"Please break your typewriter and computer and never come out of your ass cave again"

by pudieron89 on Jan 9, 2012 3:40 PM EST reply actions  

Hell, you could make that timeline next week

I’ve got a feeling…..

then again, it could be the seafood I ate last night.

I'm not a fanboy, I'm an awesome dude

by Jason Collette on Jan 9, 2012 3:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Any particular feeling?

Is it a powerful feeling? Do you feel it can play the field or just hit? Is it a former Ray?

Please explain your feeling.

Matt Moore. That is all.

by joeybw on Jan 9, 2012 4:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Whiny?

I’m not sure I get that. This wasn’t meant as a “we shoulda got Rizzo” thread or post, but I thought the non-pursuit there was really interesting, especially when taken in conjuncture with Jonah’s recent post about the Rays and sustainability (which I didn’t agree with and thought was an interesting point). The more I thought about things this weekend, I like not getting Rizzo…I do think the risk involved in getting him wasn’t worth it. But I don’t think that means we should give Friedman a free pass with everything, or never look deeper into his logic on team building.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.

by Steve Slowinski on Jan 9, 2012 4:48 PM EST up reply actions  

my point is we all speculate about our trade targets

at the end of the day when they do or don’t happen it’s really a pointless exercise unless it’s fun. there’s no point in analyzing the offseason until it’s over and we know who will be 1B & DH. even that may be too soon.

"I don't always post off-topic, but when I do, I post at http://ottotd.com" - $tinky $tu
"Please break your typewriter and computer and never come out of your ass cave again"

by pudieron89 on Jan 9, 2012 6:11 PM EST up reply actions  

and of course you're using the offseason as a reflection of friedman's talents and deficiencies as a GM.

"I don't always post off-topic, but when I do, I post at http://ottotd.com" - $tinky $tu
"Please break your typewriter and computer and never come out of your ass cave again"

by pudieron89 on Jan 9, 2012 6:11 PM EST up reply actions  

It's not just this offseason that I was discussing.

And I also think the piece was a bit broader than nitpicking about Friedman. It’s really all about risk…how much is good, how much can the Rays afford, etc. I find that kinda interesting.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.

by Steve Slowinski on Jan 9, 2012 9:11 PM EST up reply actions  

....Or maybe just me, based on the authorship of most of those ones. Oh geez.

But to be fair, most of them are along the lines of “this roster is boring, I want to see some youth.” That’s wasn’t necessarily rooted in reality — keeping Guyer down was a good call — but more just pent up frustration. The one thing that still irks me: I don’t know why Sonny was given such a long leash before Cobb was brought up. I trust the Rays to best promote each player’s development, but I’m also not exactly going out on a limb by saying that they’re very, very cautious about promoting players.

The more I thought about it this weekend, I think the thing is that I (we?) know they’re risk adverse and cautious, and I temper my expectations and ponderings based on that. But then they are still more cautious and risk adverse than I’m anticipating, which is where it throws me off.

I don’t know if it’s necessarily the case, but it also feels like they’ve been more risk adverse over the past year…that’s possibly just my brain playing tricks with me, but it also might reflect their better understanding of the market and a changing long-term plan. After the 2010 season, I wouldn’t be surprised if they started reeling back in a bit.

I love Casey Fossum. Now try and take me seriously.

by Steve Slowinski on Jan 9, 2012 9:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Fernando Martinez was also waived

Now I really think he deserves an invite to ST, he will probably get hurt getting to camp but why not?

Matt Moore. That is all.

by joeybw on Jan 9, 2012 4:38 PM EST reply actions   1 recs

Man...

I took so much crap back in the day for calling him terribly overrated Mets crap

I'm not a fanboy, I'm an awesome dude

by Jason Collette on Jan 9, 2012 4:52 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't know about that

He is, however, the 3rd Mets CF’er to completely flame out. They had some dude named something Escobar that almost got them Manny in his prime and the Mets were the ones to say no, then of course Lastings….didn’t last very long and now Martinez will look around for a minor league deal.

Injury bug played a huge role. What the hell is with the Mets and injuries, anyway? We gotta get Ike out of there before his head falls off while covering 1B.

Matt Moore. That is all.

by joeybw on Jan 9, 2012 5:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Pablo

"I don't always post off-topic, but when I do, I post at http://ottotd.com" - $tinky $tu
"Please break your typewriter and computer and never come out of your ass cave again"

by pudieron89 on Jan 9, 2012 6:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Rays not in top 10 for minor league systems?

At least not counting Matt Moore? Not sure how that adds up? I know we’ll take a hit without Jennings and Moore this year, but that seems extreme to me. I figured something in the 8-10 range.

Raystime1998

by Michael Duncan on Jan 9, 2012 5:11 PM EST reply actions  

I have us pretty high up.

we just lack top tier prospects because so many have graduated to the mlb. our depth of solid prospects is unmatched by anyone though.

by Peter Piontek on Jan 9, 2012 5:21 PM EST up reply actions  

It's because of all the graduations

Our farm system is deep but only appears strong on the surface with Moore and Lee. I think Mahtook, Sale and Vettleson will help change that for next years rankings. Also, if Archer and Torres find their control, watch out.

Hellickson, Jennings, McGee and Cobb all graduated from prospect status and while Cobb has always been underrated, the other 3 were always good prospects.

Matt Moore. That is all.

by joeybw on Jan 9, 2012 5:23 PM EST up reply actions  

If you don't count Matt Moore then who do we even have like left?

Hak Ju Lee is good but there aren’t really any other B+ and better specs (although I suppose an argument could be made for Mahtook)

by benderbrodriguez on Jan 9, 2012 10:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Seems like this could be a pretty big boom or bust year.

You have 11 first round picks, Josh Sale, Justin O’Conner, etc….

by mr. maniac on Jan 9, 2012 11:27 PM EST up reply actions  

spend some time with the dregs of MLB

Chicago, Florida, Baltimore, etc. would kill for upper-level prospects as good as Alex Torres, Brandon Guyer and Chris Archer, or lower-level, high-ceiling guys like Mahtook and Guerrieri. Even without Matt Moore, there’s a lot that can go right here.

by AndrewTorrez on Jan 10, 2012 2:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Nevermind Martinez, the Mets also waived Daniel Herrera

Now something about a side arming lefty who throws a screwball intrigues me. AF loves to sign relievers for depth.

Matt Moore. That is all.

by joeybw on Jan 9, 2012 5:33 PM EST reply actions  

I'm coming to believe that

Matt Joyce is considered the first baseman going forward, and that they will back fill RF with Guyer. It would have been neat to see what they would have done if they signed Coco Crisp. That would have made for one great OF. But who would have been moved to RF? BJ?

So anyhow, that leaves DH to fill. Damon again? I hope not. We need a lineup upgrade from where we were in September. Particularly I would like to see a bigger HR threat to fill out the middle of the order.

by djp68 on Jan 9, 2012 5:47 PM EST reply actions  

Upton was open to SS, 2B and CF in his career but he wants to remain in the middle of the diamond.

Crisp would probably be going to RF, although, I’m sure the Upton trade rumors would start yet again.

A full season of Jennings, a contract year of Upton and Guyer, does that make us good enough with our rotation? I really think Friedman will eventually bring Damon back for DH so maybe people are right about Joyce at 1B. Unless of course, AF pulls a Konerko/Trumbo/Morales/Pena out of his hat.

Matt Moore. That is all.

by joeybw on Jan 9, 2012 5:52 PM EST up reply actions  

If Konerko comes in

then I still want to see Guyer in RF, with Joyce getting spot starts in LF/RF and playing a lot of DH.

Honestly a lot of this could be solved if S-Rod ever developed into a good hitter. Imagine a mashing S-Rod at 2B, Zobrist in RF, and Joyce at 1B/DH. That would be a defensive upgrade by getting Joyce out of RF (he isn’t bad honestly), and would solve our 1B/DH woes.

by djp68 on Jan 9, 2012 6:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Rodriguez is probably only going to be a below average SS.

He was moved to 2nd by the Angels after struggling there for 5 years in the low minors. On an occasional basis he is just adequate at the position.

But he is GG caliber 2nd baseman, IMO, having all the range, pivots and arm needed for the spot. If his bat comes around, especially against RH’ers, I like him at 2nd base on a regular basis with Zobrist, who has proven to be a very good RF’er, getting most of the time out there.

by budman3 on Jan 9, 2012 7:12 PM EST up reply actions  

If im Maddon, I put Zo at 2B and do not move him all season unless there is an injury and he is the only one that can fill in

Rodriguez has one of the strongest arms on the team and while I remember his 3 error game, I also remember a whole lot of above average defense from him at SS the last month or 2 of the season.

Matt Moore. That is all.

by joeybw on Jan 9, 2012 7:14 PM EST up reply actions  

The Rays best defense is Zobrist in RF, Rodriguez at 2nd and Brignac at SS

Zobrist is probably a tad better at 2nd than Rodriguez but the better all-around defensive set-up is the one above. And if S-Rod, Brignac and Joyce(moving him to DH and not first) could improve their splits, it may be their best offensive look as well. Add a stellar glove at first and the Rays are again the best defensive team in baseball.

by budman3 on Jan 9, 2012 7:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Brignac is a stud with the glove but I think S-Rod at SS, Zo at 2B, and Guyer in RF is pretty darn good also

Joyce to DH and we get that Konerko type impact bat for 1B and that’s all, turns out we need to make only 1 trade and well, open those wallets and we are set up quite nicely.

Matt Moore. That is all.

by joeybw on Jan 9, 2012 7:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Joyce is no slouch RF either but I think one of those bat scould be his at DH but only if he starts hitting lefties.

But I still believe the next 1st baseman has to be a plus defender(that’s the Rays MO). Konerko is average at best and probably regressing as a defender. While I like his bat more as a DH, I still think he is out of the Rays reach, both money wise and PR wise from the Sox point of view.

by budman3 on Jan 9, 2012 7:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Who believes this one?
FakeMLBInsider MLB Insider
#Rays #mlb Source: RT @MavsCowsRangers My sources are telling me Jeremy Hellicson has just reached a 3 year contract with Puberty.

I say it’s true.

Matt Moore. That is all.

by joeybw on Jan 9, 2012 8:07 PM EST reply actions  

Ugh stupid phone

How long before moore inks a contract with clearasil

by BossmanJunior333 on Jan 9, 2012 9:59 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

I dont care how long your posts are

I always enjoy reading them and your insight.

I was describing this offseason to someone earlier today as being like a child around christmas time. Part of you wants to be patient and be suprised, trusting that your parents are not only going to get you something good, but something thats best for you. The other part of you really wants to climb in the attic when they are gone and take a peak. The problem is, Papa Friedman hid the gifts really well and as much as we try to find the presents or any receipts hinting what he got you, its to no avail.

Thats how I feel. I was ok with waiting earlier but have grown impatient lately. I honestly just want to turm that attic upside down and find those damn presents.

by BossmanJunior333 on Jan 10, 2012 12:25 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

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