The Rays 5th Starter: Niemann, Davis, or Cobb?
Over the winter the Rays were either unable or unwilling to move any of their starting pitchers; therefore, the Rays are one of the very few fortunate teams to have at least 7 quality candidates to fill 5 spots in their starting rotation. James Shields, David Price, Jeremy Hellickson, and Matt Moore occupy the first four slots and Wade Davis, Jeff Niemann, and Alex Cobb will battle for the final spot.
Marc Topkin of the Tampa Bay Times asked Niemann and Davis both about the prospect of pitching out of the bullpen.
Wade Davis touched off a small controversy as he was quite adamant against a transition to the bullpen:
"I'm a starter," he said. "I don't see any reason for me to be in the bullpen. I understand they've got to do certain things, but we'll see. … I definitely want to be a starter and stay a starter forever. And that'll be my mentality."
Davis said there haven't been any conversations — yet, anyway — with anyone from the Rays about possibly ending up in the bullpen. And if he is sent that way, he might end up approaching them, though he wouldn't have much leverage to force a trade.
"If it ever did come to that, it's something we'd talk about then," he said. - Tampa Bay Times
Jeff Niemann was more diplomatic in his response:
"Right now, I think we'll just deal with that when we have to," he said. "I'm just looking forward to going out there and building up (innings) the way we normally do it and see how things play out. It's just an unknown, a definite unknown." -Tampa Bay Times
Alex Cobb is coming off a season ending blood cot (blockage to subclavian vein) injury which required season ending surgery (thoracic outlet decompression) reported to spring training and is throwing off the mound with no problems or restrictions. He said that he is 100 percent and feel better than he did last year.
As the competition begins it is fair to wonder what variables are going to come into play the most? A Rays fan only has to look back at the 2011 season to realize that each and every game, or in this context, each and every start from Game 1 to Game 162 matters. Jim Hickey's answer to that question was refreshing to read:
"[it's] not going to be contract-driven or ego-driven or nice-guy driven or even necessarily performance-in-spring-training driven. It will be, in our estimation, what gives the Tampa Bay Rays a chance to win as many games as they can." - Ken Rosenthal Fox Sports
Jeff Niemann's 2011 season did not end on a high note. His last outing was delayed by 2 days due to upper back stiffness and when he finally took the mound he lacked velocity and control. He was promptly removed from the game after needing 38 pitches to get through the first inning and surrendering a 2-run home run to Jose Bautista. When the playoffs started it was Niemann who was left off the post season roster and Wade Davis who moved to the bullpen.
On the season, Niemann made 23 starts tallying 135.1 innings and went 11-7 with a 4.06 ERA/4.13 FIP. Bradley Woodrum examined Niemann's season in a story titled The Jeff Niemann-Wade Davis Conundrum. In the story he separated Jeff Niemann's season into two time periods. The first was from April through July and the second covers only August and September:
| Split | FIP | xFIP | BB% | K% | HR% |
| April thru July | 3.79 | 4.12 | 6.0% | 18.2% | 2.2% |
| Aug. to present | 4.89 | 3.88 | 7.1% | 18.5% | 4.3% |
NOTE: calculated xFIP using Niemann's career HR/FB rate and a 3.2 constant.
One question the Rays have to ask themselves is if Jeff Niemann's struggles from August to the end of hte year are indicative of a physical or mechanical problem. Woodrum also points out that hitters fare better the 3rd and 4th time through the lineup suggesting that Niemann may be better suited for the bullpen: Niemann's career splits suggest he could make a rather strong two- or three-inning reliever:
| I | Split | PA | HR | BB | SO | HBP | tOPS+ | ||||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 1st PA in G, as SP | 757 | 21 | 58 | 141 | 2.43 | .239 | .308 | .397 | .704 | 11 | .272 | 93 | |
| 2nd PA in G, as SP | 719 | 13 | 64 | 108 | 1.69 | .241 | .314 | .354 | .667 | 5 | .271 | 84 | |
| 3rd PA in G, as SP | 538 | 26 | 33 | 97 | 2.94 | .274 | .323 | .502 | .825 | 5 | .291 | 123 | |
| 4th+ PA in G, as SP | 88 | 3 | 7 | 17 | 2.43 | .333 | .386 | .506 | .893 | 0 | .393 | 144 |
Wade Davis
Wade Davis made 29 starts in 2011 working 184 innings and went 11-10 with a 4.45 ERA and a 4.67 FIP. In early December Steve Slowinski examined Davis' season in a story titled What's Up With Wade Davis? Slowinski did not give a glowing review of Davis' career body of work:
Consider: Wade Davis has now thrown nearly 400 innings in the majors and he's entering his age 26 season, yet he has a career 4.55 FIP and 4.61 SIERA. His strikeout rate has declined each of the past three seasons, and he's an extreme flyball pitcher (42%) that has benefited from playing in the pitcher-friendly Tropicana Field. His peripheral statistics stunk in 2010, and he only got worse in 2011.
In The Jeff Niemann-Wade Davis Conundrum story Woodrum examined Wade Davis' season by parsing it into the same two time periods as he did with Jeff Niemann:
| Split | FIP | xFIP | BB% | K% | HR% |
| April thru Jul | 5.04 | 5.28 | 7.5% | 11.0% | 3.0% |
| Aug. to present | 4.46 | 4.30 | 8.7% | 17.0% | 2.8% |
NOTE: calculated his xFIP using his career 9.3% HR/FB rate.
Woodrum notes that the Davis was at his best over the final two months but these numbers still below league average.
After Wade Davis' appearance out of the bullpen Steve Slowinski wrote Wade Davis, The Reliever where he pointed out that :
"Davis cranked up the heat on all his pitches." Instead of averaging around 92-93 MPH with his four-seam fastball, he dialed it up to 94-95 MPH. He also threw his slider around 87-88 MPH, and even got his two-seam fastball up into the mid-90s (around 93 MPH).
Later Slowinski expanded on the idea in a story at Fangraphs titled Solving the Rays Rotation Crunch with an alternate title Wade Davis, The Reliever. As the alternate title suggests Slowinski believes that Wade Davis is much more suited for the bullpen than a spot in the starting rotation.
Slowinski points out that Davis has been able to generate less and less whiffs on his pitches in each of the last three seasons. In 2009 Davis struck out 24% of batters he faced but that number was tempered by a league average whiff rate of 8.8%, in 2010 the strikeout rate dropped to a below league average 16% and his whiff rate fell to 6.6%, and in 2011 the strikeout rate fell to 13% and his whiff rate fell to 5.9%.
Alex Cobb
Alex Cobb only made 9 starts totaling 52.2 innings pitched with a record of 3-2 with an ERA of 3.42 and a FIP of 3.61. His overall numbers include 2 starts where beyond any reasonable doubt there was something amiss with Cobb. In his major league debut on May 1st against the Angels it was discovered that Cobb was tipping his pitches and in his last start of the year he had numbness in the hand and arm resulting in a trip to the hospital where the blod clot was discovered and season ending surgery was performed.
In between tipping his pitches and the discovery of the blood clot he pitched an impressive 44 innings of work going 3-1 with a 2.25 ERA. He struck out 30 batters, walked 13, surrendered one HR and held the opposition to a .563 OPS. Cobb has the least amount of major league experience but has been impressive in the minor league and in his brief time in the big leagues. His lack of experience should not be the number one reason why he has to wait his turn to take a rotation spot.
There are many scenarios that can occur in spring training that may help settle the fifth starter battle. Here are some of the scenarios and possible outcomes to discuss:
- Jeff Niemann gets traded. This should not automatically put Wade Davis into the rotation. As I read Slowinski and Woodrum's work detailed above and Whelks "Is There Hope For Wade Davis" article I am now convinced the Davis does not belong in the rotation. I'd put Alex Cobb in the rotation.
- An injury to Jeff Niemann. My thoughts remain on the same outcome above. Cobb in the rotation.
- An injury to Wade Davis. This would set up an interesting battle between Alex Cobb and Jeff Niemann. Based on the hittability of Jeff Niemann the 3rd and 4th time through the lineup and his injury history it may be time to take a look at Alex Cobb in the rotation.
- Wade Davis gets traded. My thoughts remain the same as the outcome above. Take a look at Cobb in the rotation.
- An injury to Alex Cobb. In this scenario I believe the Rays would best be suited to use Jeff Niemann in the rotation and Davis out of the bullpen.
- If there isn't an injury or trade and none of the trio pitch particularly poor in spring training. In this scenario Alex Cobb goes into the rotation, Jeff Niemann who is out of options goes to the bullpen, and Wade Davis goes to Durham to continue to be stretched out as a starter.
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I have it as Niemann = Cobb > Davis.
As of right now, with a slight edge to Niemann just because of his long warmup time in the bullpen.
I think it's very unlikely that Cobb is a starter out of ST
The Rays are very careful with injuries to pitchers. Cobb may believe he’s 100%, but this does not mean the Rays trust him to be 100%. Plus, how many inning could we expect from him anyway? He only worked 110-120 last year.
Now, I wouldn’t be surprised to see him in the rotation at some point during the season. My guess is that the Rays will do what they always do: decide by not deciding. Cobb to Durham until something (injury/trade) makes them make a move. Niems is probably the better bet to make the rotation, but he’s also the more likely candidate to break down.
Use the force, Lueke
As you say and we've heard Joe goes out of his way to talk about Cobb
and eventually when the dust settles a healthy Alex Cobb will be in the Rays rotation. Without a trade before OD though i see a healthy Jeff Niemann being the 5th SP and Wade Davis opening in the minors or the bullpen. But i really believe a trade happens
follow me on twitter @sternfan10
We might just trade one of our RH relievers to make room for Davis, throw we can't just throw away depth like that.
joeybw, on why he was banned for half a day:
"Might of been grammar I keep getting that "would have" thing wrong
Not on purpose, mods, wish it was….."
Classic.
by sc_monsta1015 on Feb 25, 2012 10:50 AM EST up reply actions
I expect Niemann to be that guy as long as he is healthy and doesn't put up horrific numbers in ST.
I’m guessing we would rather trade him than Davis, and starting will add to his value for sure. Hopefully if we do trade Niemann at the deadline it will be for some MLB-ready help. I expect us to pursue a catcher, because there is no way Molina can regularly start in the 2nd half. Then again, Chiriton might be surprising people and we can just get him playing more. Sorry for going into all of that, I’m just super excited about all our talent and to think we can bring in more is just great. I’m expecting big things this season, but that might not be a good thing. :)
joeybw, on why he was banned for half a day:
"Might of been grammar I keep getting that "would have" thing wrong
Not on purpose, mods, wish it was….."
Classic.
Why would we rather trade Niemann than Davis?
by benderbrodriguez on Feb 25, 2012 10:50 AM EST up reply actions
cost+control I guess. I thought everyone here agreed on that.
joeybw, on why he was banned for half a day:
"Might of been grammar I keep getting that "would have" thing wrong
Not on purpose, mods, wish it was….."
Classic.
by sc_monsta1015 on Feb 25, 2012 10:51 AM EST up reply actions
I thought the opposite, because of inferior talent
by benderbrodriguez on Feb 25, 2012 10:53 AM EST up reply actions
Assuming the same return, I'd rather trade Davis
by benderbrodriguez on Feb 25, 2012 10:53 AM EST up reply actions
I guess, depending on performance.
If we had both Niemann and Davis for the same amount of years at the same price, I’ll take Niemann assuming he stays healthy. But that’s just not how it works, and we have Davis longer who still has decent upside. I wouldn’t mind trading either one though…
joeybw, on why he was banned for half a day:
"Might of been grammar I keep getting that "would have" thing wrong
Not on purpose, mods, wish it was….."
Classic.
by sc_monsta1015 on Feb 25, 2012 10:58 AM EST up reply actions
Doesn't matter to me which one we trade
Whichever brings the better return is the one to move. Both are perfectly serviceable as back of the rotation starters or a bullpen arm.
Use the force, Lueke
by nomoredevil on Feb 25, 2012 11:49 AM EST up reply actions
Davis's xFIP- and FIP- were around 120 last year. Niemann's xFIP- was 92
This isn’t a small difference, it’s a veritable gulf. Although it’s smaller if you add in previous years, there’s still a sizable difference
by benderbrodriguez on Feb 25, 2012 11:51 AM EST up reply actions
But both are okay as a back of the rotation guy
That’s all I’m saying. We can’t really dictate which guy another team wants. If they make a good offer for Niems but aren’t interested in Davis, I’m fine with pulling the trigger.
Use the force, Lueke
by nomoredevil on Feb 25, 2012 11:56 AM EST up reply actions
Yes, but what if we got offered the same thing for either one?
Who would you trade? Cleary, Niemann is better when both are fully healthy, but with a team like this, cost and control is huge. If Niemann is healthy in the 1st half and is pitching light-out, I’d definitely support us trying to move Davis if that means better shot at the playoffs. We could always go the route of trading whoever is playing better (likely whoever gets the 5th spot) and trying to improve on catcher or whatever. Like I said, I’ll support whatever the decision is, as I’m not attached to either on eof those guys…
joeybw, on why he was banned for half a day:
"Might of been grammar I keep getting that "would have" thing wrong
Not on purpose, mods, wish it was….."
Classic.
by sc_monsta1015 on Feb 25, 2012 12:03 PM EST up reply actions
Niemann had an AMAZING spring training one of the past 2 seasons.
Can’t remember which, but he didn’t give up many runs, and he had a monster K:BB ratio. And I know ST doesn’t mean a ton, but we’ve seen flashes of this for extended periods of time, not just one or two games in a row during the regular season. If he can just stay healthy, I think he’s probably easily the best pitcher out of the three, although we haven’t seen much from Cobb, really, so I could be wrong.
Cherington has taken off his pants and he’s shitting all over my hopes for 2012
by TheLoneDavid on Jan 10, 2012 12:31 PM CST
by SandalsNoPants on Feb 25, 2012 11:24 AM EST up reply actions
This.
joeybw, on why he was banned for half a day:
"Might of been grammar I keep getting that "would have" thing wrong
Not on purpose, mods, wish it was….."
Classic.
by sc_monsta1015 on Feb 25, 2012 11:27 AM EST up reply actions
Good article, thanks
I agree that Cobb should be the fifth starter, but it will be Neimann out of ST. Davis to the pen or traded, and Cobb joins the rotation when someone gets hurt or whatnot.
6 man rotation isn't out of the question if we do make a deadline trade.
joeybw, on why he was banned for half a day:
"Might of been grammar I keep getting that "would have" thing wrong
Not on purpose, mods, wish it was….."
Classic.
by sc_monsta1015 on Feb 25, 2012 10:52 AM EST up reply actions
I voted for Davis.
Cobb seems unrealistic given the layoff and the surgeries. Besides, I’m not convinced Cobb would outpitch either Niemann or Davis right now. I am and have been a fan. I just don’t see him being a frontline guy, and that means he isn’t a priority at this point.
I’ve expressed my concerns about Niemann’s health for years and nothing has changed. Niemann isn’t the archetypical big, durable pitcher like Andy Benes or even Jon Garland that gives you 180 innings or more most years. He’s topped 160 innings twice in his professional career, and only once did he get over 180 innings. We can talk about how he runs hot and cold, but I see him as a league-average starter and that’s what those guys do.
Davis has flaws too, plenty of them. I know his fastball command is wonky, that he has little feel for a changeup, that he needs to develop an outpitch versus righties (though I am optimistic that his curve or cutter will prove to be that pitch), and that he has some injury issues of his own. Even still, I’m not ready to give up on him as a starter yet. I’m not as paranoid about his health as I am with Niemann (seeing as how the Rays extended him a year ago, presumably his medical files are in decent shape and his conditioning habits are acceptable). My thoughts on Davis’ upside aren’t irrational, either. I think there’s a fair chance he turns into a Niemann clone, which is okay all things considered. If you deal Davis now, I think you look back in a year or two and wonder if you sold low.
by R.J. Anderson on Feb 25, 2012 1:03 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
You're basically the only reason I have any optimism on Wade
by Ben Tumbling on Feb 25, 2012 4:26 PM EST up reply actions
Well, I'm just hoping he turns into a league-average starter.
But I view this as three cards of the same deck, so this isn’t a situation where I see a wrong route anyway. Obviously if you think Davis is definitely below-average and Cobb and Niemann are average then you aren’t likely to tolerate another 30 starts from Davis over them.
by R.J. Anderson on Feb 25, 2012 5:39 PM EST up reply actions
The fact that Davis's upside is to turn into what Niemann is now is the main cause of concern for me
by benderbrodriguez on Feb 25, 2012 4:29 PM EST up reply actions
Davis's upside is to turn into Niemann's upside with consistency, there's a difference.
@staplemaniac
by staplemaniac on Feb 25, 2012 10:31 PM EST up reply actions
Davis has his own injury ghosts (if you're referring to health consistency)
If you’re referring to performance consistency, well who cares? The overall average performance is all that matters
by benderbrodriguez on Feb 26, 2012 2:17 PM EST up reply actions
I was mostly referring to delivery/performance consistency.
I’ll admit to being higher on Davis than most, but I think given Davis’ minor league history there’s still a chance he ends up being better than Niemann. Are the chances good? No. But I believe in them.
@staplemaniac
by staplemaniac on Feb 26, 2012 4:01 PM EST up reply actions
Fair enough
I’m much higher than most on Niemann I think. We’ll just have to see
by benderbrodriguez on Feb 26, 2012 4:16 PM EST up reply actions
I'd need to see more of Cobb before coming to a conclusion. Obviously I love the change and ground balls and I always thought he wouldn't strike
out enough guys in the Show to be much more than a good bullpen arm. His K% and SwStr% were a bit under league average last year, but if he can get at or above LA then I think he could be a very nice MOR arm. I see him having a higher ceiling than Niemann or Davis as currently iterated. I have no love for Niemann as he’s a ticking time bomb. We’ve seen Davis look pretty good and absolutely awful so I have no idea what to make of him. There are bright signs, but there are also red flags.
I have no idea if Cobb will be able to come back and be the same after a freak surgery. If he can bring his strikeouts up (or bring his walks down from 9.4% last year) while giving us 180 innings then he’d be my easy answer, but this is a pretty large question mark. I hope Niemann is traded for what they can get and Davis shows real promise in the pen while being able to throw his full repertoire.
I got away from the one thing that kept me on the straight and narrow, and that was my relationship with the Lord
by Sandy Kazmir on Feb 26, 2012 2:48 PM EST up reply actions
I'd be more comfortable if there was a proven track record of pitcher's having this surgery and then coming back fine.
As such, I think it’s smart to stay conservative on this and not expect him to be the guy he was and adjust accordingly as more data comes in.
I got away from the one thing that kept me on the straight and narrow, and that was my relationship with the Lord
by Sandy Kazmir on Feb 26, 2012 5:16 PM EST up reply actions
Zack Greinke recovered from a similar injury at the beginning of last season no?
by benderbrodriguez on Feb 26, 2012 5:19 PM EST up reply actions
He had a broken rib, he was not cut into, anytime a guy has sur
I got away from the one thing that kept me on the straight and narrow, and that was my relationship with the Lord
by Sandy Kazmir on Feb 26, 2012 6:02 PM EST up reply actions
anytime a guy has surgery of any kind I take him down a notch of what he could have been. People poo poo TJ recovery all the time
but just because a guy recovers doesn’t mean he’s the same specimen he was before.
I got away from the one thing that kept me on the straight and narrow, and that was my relationship with the Lord
by Sandy Kazmir on Feb 26, 2012 6:03 PM EST up reply actions
I think there's reason to think Cobb wouldn't be what he was with or without the surgery.
He gave up three home runs in 52 innings. That’s on par with Kenley Jansen. Hard for me to see that continuing.
by R.J. Anderson on Feb 26, 2012 6:22 PM EST up reply actions
Still, he had tremendous GB rates in the minors, and those translate to the bigs fairly well usually, no?
by benderbrodriguez on Feb 26, 2012 7:43 PM EST up reply actions
Usually you see a slight decline as the player progresses--same with strikeout rate and whatnot.
Here’s what BP has for his groundball rates since 2008:
2008 – 58%
2009 – 57%
2010 – 55%
2011- 55% (TB) 58% (DUR)
I think you’ll see him lose a touch of that in the long run, but suggesting he’ll be a groundball guy is reasonable. Still, I don’t buy that he’ll give up a home run every 16 innings. How many guys do that? Matt Cain finished that low once and he’s the poster pitcher for low home run rates.
Besides, you’re basically asking Cobb to maintain the same home run rate from the minors, and I think that’s being optimistic. In time he might prove that he can, but I wouldn’t bet on it.
by R.J. Anderson on Feb 26, 2012 8:07 PM EST up reply actions
Oh I agree that he won't maintain the rate he's kept, absolutely
Just that it won’t regress that much. Perhaps to .65+/-.1 per 9
by benderbrodriguez on Feb 27, 2012 12:14 AM EST up reply actions
Niemann, Cobb needs his innings suppressed
Because you have to give either him or Davis a chance to increase their trade value, and I think Niemann is the better bet to do so. This is all pending Niemann shaking whatever ailed him the last few months of the year in 2011. Otherwise Davis, but no matter what I want Cobb in the 5th spot by mid-June. I think limiting his innings one last time before taking the leash off is a good idea. Cobb hasn’t had over 125 inning in a season since 2008. You have to limit him to around 160 this season.

























