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A Clemens Sighting on You Tube...

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I started paying attention to Clemens in the year of 1986. In that time, we did not have the array of resources and online news outlets the way we do today. In that day, you first start hearing about people based on their performance on the field.

I say you take Clemens career up until the point his career ended with Boston and he is a Hall of Famer.  

I was floored by what he was able to do in Toronto,  Yankees, and even Astros.

But, we have heard the rumors of steroids in the past on Clemens. I honestly did not believe them. But, one thing is fishy. Its this practice of where he comes out of retirement and starts the season in June timeframe (with Astros and then Yankees) sure seems like a way to get out of doing what every other major league player must adhere to. It takes respect out of all those who players who prepare physically and mentally to compete in this game. Instead, he received this rock star treatment and am not sure what he was bypassing by the later start. He knew what he was going to do each year.

Sure, what he has done on the field has been exceptional. So, has what Bonds has done on the field.

But, when your name is splashed all over the Mitchell investigation, you have some explaining to do. Especially, when your buddy Andy who trains with you and looks up to you admits he experimented with HGH.  

I mistakenly believed Rose when he said he did not bet for 10 years. Should I believe Clemens denial?

0 recs | Comment 15 comments

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Re: A Clemens Sighting on You Tube...
It can't happen, but if he did use steroids, his "explanation" should be: "Yes, I took them. So what?"

The players who took steroids or HGH before baseball negotiated penalties did nothing wrong. Those who did since that agreement broke a rule and should be penalized as determined in the rule.

There is no reason for any of us to care or to want to know beyond prurient interest into manufactured sin.

by bobr on Dec 23, 2007 12:20 PM EST   0 recs

Re: A Clemens Sighting on You Tube...
Well, for example SI writer Tom Verducci has said he won't vote for Bonds for the Hall. So this is more about the court of public opinion. Players have no recourse on the Mitchell report or weather the players interviewed were reliable sources or not. Who know, Mitchell's report only focused on a cross cutting segment of baseball's clubhouses.  I believe with Bob Costas and others is that you have to label players from this era as Steroid Era where everyone gets an asterisk.  

by David Bloom on Dec 23, 2007 12:40 PM EST   0 recs

Re: A Clemens Sighting on You Tube...
Do you also wish to asterisk players from the 1950-70s and label them as the Amphetamine Era? The stupidity of this particular court of public opinion is verging on the epochal. And Costas, by the way, long ago became totally without credit as a commentator.

Incidentally, this is from Posnanski's blog, a comment on Buck O'Neill's view on the issue. I think he is exactly right.
______________
"It's funny, there have been several million words written in the past couple of weeks about steroids in baseball (and also HGH which is very different -- but let's use "steroids" here to describe the entire set of drugs). People are so hot-headed about the topic, you can't really talk to anybody. More and more, though, I think back to what Buck O'Neil used to say. He would shock people all the time. They expected him to be outraged about steroids and cheating, and he really was not. He used to say, "The only reason we didn't use steroids in my time is that we didn't have them." He said baseball players -- premier athletes in general -- look for that edge. It just in the nature of competitive athletes.

Then he said something else: He wondered why people didn't talk more about the health risks. If steroids really are dangerous enough to be illegal without prescriptions -- more dangerous than, say, cigarettes or alcohol or other over the counter legal drugs -- then he wished people would talk about THAT rather than talking about how many more home runs you could hit using steroids. He despised the phrase "performance enhancing drugs." He would have preferred something like "life-threatening drugs."

Of course, it seems that the long-term health risks for steroids, HGH and other PED's are not especially clear cut -- people argue about the dangers all the time. So maybe that's why I cannot remember the last steroids story I read that actually detailed the health risks. In any case, with all the hysteria surrounding steroids and baseball now, I really wish some more people could just express some of the common sense that Buck always expressed. Let's try to remember what this is all about anyway.

Then again, it's been more than a year since he's been gone, and I can't tell you how many times I've thought that over that year -- how many times I've missed Buck's common sense."
_
_______________
Anyone who will not vote for Bonds or Clemens for the Hall of Fame hasn't an ounce of sense in his head.

by bobr on Dec 23, 2007 12:51 PM EST   0 recs

Re: A Clemens Sighting on You Tube...
Agreed, Verducci not voting for Bonds is ridiculous. But, still makes me think how you classify what the good players vs the great players. True, Gaylord Perry applied stuff to ball that gave him an edge, but he is in the Hall. The Mitchell report was unfair that it did not focus on all players, and only some clubhouses. To me, Sammy Sosa was not the caliber a player early in his career. Where Bonds and Clemens were heads and shoulders from day one in HOF mold.

by David Bloom on Dec 23, 2007 1:00 PM EST   0 recs

Re: A Clemens Sighting on You Tube...
There is no way to disentangle so-called "enhanced performance" from normal growth or development or simple outliers. Baseball history is replete with examples of players who had anywhere from 1-4 years or more of strange stats compared to their overall or earlier performances. Among those are:

Ted Kluszewski: From ages 24-28 he hit 11, 8, 25, 13 & 16 home runs. Then over the next 4 he hit 40, 49, 47 & 35 before returning to 6, 4, 2, 2, 5.

Musial: From ages 21-25, he hit 10, 13, 12, 16 & 19 home runs. Then at age 26 he hit 39 and continued a power hitter for a long time.

Yastrzemski: From ages 21-26, he hit 11, 19, 14, 15, 20 & 16 home runs. Suddenly in the next 4 years he hit 44, 23, 40 & 40 and just as suddenly hit only in the teens with one 21 home run year exception until at age 37 he hit 28 before returning to form.

Those are just 3 prominent examples. There are many, many more. The entire effort to evaluate players as enhanced (as if that is bad, itself a stupid assumption) or not, the bandying of names and rumors, the comparison of one player to another to figure out who should be the subject of a whispering campaign, is disgusting and immoral.      

by bobr on Dec 23, 2007 2:03 PM EST   0 recs

All-Overpaid Team
Came upon this article on the "All-Overpaid Team" for current players it seems.  Pretty decent list, could use a few minor tweaks.  

http://mlbfleecefactor.com/2007/12/23/the-all-overpaid-team/

by ET90210 on Dec 23, 2007 4:26 PM EST   0 recs

Re: A Clemens Sighting on You Tube...
There is no reason for any of us to care or to want to know beyond prurient interest into manufactured sin.

Except that, you know, possession of steroids in the USA without a prescription is ILLEGAL.

Other than that, no reason at all.

ScoutingBook: Top Baseball Prospects, Closer Watch, more!

by scoutingbook on Dec 23, 2007 11:10 PM EST   0 recs

Re: A Clemens Sighting on You Tube...
And the same maufactured sin logic has been used by others (students on speed studying for exams, children born with no committed parents, illegal immegration, etc).

I guess the message is that laws are for suckers.

[/rant]

by ttnorm on Dec 24, 2007 1:26 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: A Clemens Sighting on You Tube...
So ultimately the argument comes down to the rather lame elevating of "it is illegal" to some absolute principle. As if we really need to know of every fudging of the law and then start screaming for people's heads when we discover they have puffed on a joint or misstated some deduction on their tax return or didn't wear a seat belt.

Fine, I agree. People who violate the law should be penalized according to the provisions. That is a job of government, by the way, not employers. And while I do not consider using steroids a form of civil disobedience, I certainly do consider the legislation regarding drugs to be both irrational and disastrously ineffective, and the boundaries between legal and illegal to be fuzzy enough as to be virtually meaningless. As a matter of fact, lumping all the "users" together is an example of the stupidity of the whole affair as  it condemns as one those who used them for repair, for hoped-for enhancement, by prescription, by trainers, by themselves and every other circumstance. It even condemns those who used legal substances.

I am appalled at lawbreaking and consider it necessary to find and punish criminals. But it is almost impossible not to break laws regularly. I try to be a careful driver, but especially on long trips I sometimes speed. What I am doing is far more socially harmful than taking steroids. Should we condemn all the athletes who drive too fast, or only those who take speed? Do we need investigations into player's driving habits? I know, that has nothing to do with performance in games (although for those old fart hypocrites, amphetamines do), but even if steroids are supposed to or might have, we cannot isolate those effects, and now there is a policy while before there was not. We need to enforce the current policy, not investigate past actions that did not transgress any baseball rules.

The laws against steroid use have far less social significance or moral standing than those against speeding or even tax cheating. I do expect people guilty of those latter violations to be caught by authorities and punished, but I do not expect baseball authorities to investigate, publish and create a whirlwind of publicity around such violators. To do so would indeed be manufacturing sin.

by bobr on Dec 24, 2007 8:08 AM EST   0 recs

Re: A Clemens Sighting on You Tube...
Incidentally, ttnorm, I am glad you mentioned students on speed studying for exams. It is an apt analogy.

I never used any pills to help me stay awake to study. As a matter of fact, I despise all drugs, even legal ones. But many of my classmates did, and to the extent it helped them artificially, it enhanced not just their grades in particular courses but their overall GPA to my detriment in terms of ranking. In fact, some of those courses were graded on strict curves which further injured my standing.

Many of those classmates are now professionals in various fields. Should their employers and clients be apprised of their cheating and use of illegal substances? Should I demand a review of their college records to reassess my standing? Should their records be expunged or black-marked in some way to distinguish them from my clean one? The entire proposition is ridiculous, of course, but no more so than this frenzied reconsideration of the baseball records of recent years.

by bobr on Dec 24, 2007 11:07 AM EST   0 recs

Re: A Clemens Sighting on You Tube...
Never trust a Texan. Clemons is a lieing sack of shit, just like Lance Armstrong. Of course Clemons was using HGH. Clemons is fighting for his legacy at this point, and will say anything to save his ass.

by Jhattenburg on Dec 24, 2007 8:37 PM EST   0 recs

Such bad language on Christmas Eve!
Won't someone please think of the children?

by Patrick L. Kennedy on Dec 25, 2007 1:32 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: A Clemens Sighting on You Tube...
visit rotojunkie for your all of your fantasy baseball help

by UCFKnights on Dec 25, 2007 10:36 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: A Clemens Sighting on You Tube...
Excuse my language, but there is just something about texans and lieing that just angry's up my blood.

by Jhattenburg on Dec 26, 2007 12:36 PM EST   0 recs

Re: A Clemens Sighting on You Tube...
I have a better You Tube video of Clemens :)
Matt Sammon, draysbay columnist and professional bump on a log

by Matt Sammon on Dec 28, 2007 12:23 AM EST   0 recs

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