Not Mad
Yelling profanities, kicking dirt, and spitting through clenched teeth at umpires until you get tossed more times than anyone else doesn't have much of a correlation with winning. At least that's what I've found at BTB in my new column. So for those who want Maddon to turn into a Billy Martin reincarnate, it doesn't seem to have much affect on the team.
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Re: Not Mad
You are assuming that an ejection can only have an effect on that particular game. those that want Maddon to be a bit more vocal at times believe that it can show the fans and more importantly the players that he cares about winning and that he has the players backs NOT that they think it will help the team rally in that one game. and if the players see how much the manager cares about them and about winning they are more likely to run through walls for the manager.
if you wanted to break it down a better way. look at how teams do when a manager is ejected in a tie game or even a 1-run game. or look at how teams do in the game immediately after an ejection or the 5-10 games after an ejection compared to the 5-10 games prior. I am still not sure those are good correlations but they would be better.
by Devil Ray Guevara on
Feb 3, 2008 6:58 PM EST
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Following 10 games
Braves:
April 22 LWL WWL WLW W 6-4
May 6 LWW WWW LLW L 6-4
May 26 LLW LWW WLL W 5-5
June 23 LWW WWW LLL W 6-4
23-17 58%(season: 52%)
Phillies:
May 1 LWL WLL WWW L 6-4
May 23 LWW WLL LLW W 5-5
June 1 WWL WWW LWL W 7-3
June 17 LWL WLW WLW L 4-6
22-18 55% (season: 55%)
Astros:
April 13 LWW WWW LLL L 5-5
May 11 WWW WLL WLL L 5-5
June 8 WLL WLL WWW L 5-5
15-15 50% (season: 45%)
Twins:
May 5 LWL LLL WLL L 2-8
June 26 LWW WLL LWL W 5-5
7-13 35% (season: 49%)
Jays:
April 21 LWW WLL WWL L 5-5
June 27 LLL LWL WWL W 4-6
July 20 WWW WWL LWL W 7-3
16-14 53% (season: 51%)
by R.J. Anderson on
Feb 3, 2008 8:29 PM EST
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Re: Not Mad
About the only time I've seen a coaching tantrum have any possible effect would be a college coach (basketball, maybe baseball) getting a technical or tossed. I would like to think professional players are beyond the point of needing their coach to throw a fit in order to play better.
by RATW on
Feb 3, 2008 7:35 PM EST
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Re: Not Mad
of course you would like to...but do you really think this is true? would Delmon Young have run out a few more ground balls if he was playing for Lou Piniella or another manager that he had respect for?
either way, I dont think Piniella is a good example, because he is often abusive of his players. so in his case players may play harder, but it is out of fear, not out of respect.
by Devil Ray Guevara on
Feb 3, 2008 7:52 PM EST
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Re: Not Mad
Tamargo was a dumb ass hard ass and that didn't seem to stop Dukes nor Delmon from doing whatever the hell they wanted.
by R.J. Anderson on
Feb 3, 2008 8:01 PM EST
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Re: Not Mad
by Devil Ray Guevara on
Feb 3, 2008 9:13 PM EST
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Re: Not Mad
by R.J. Anderson on
Feb 3, 2008 9:23 PM EST
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Re: Not Mad
And by no means am I endorsing Piniella as the perfect manager. He goes too far quite often. I have seen it argued that the Rays would have been better off with Piniella coming in after Maddon instead of before Maddon and I tend to agree. When the team is ready to win, it might be time for a new voice and as bobr cites, often that new voice is better if it is at the other extreme.
by Devil Ray Guevara on
Feb 3, 2008 9:31 PM EST
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Re: Not Mad
by R.J. Anderson on
Feb 3, 2008 9:34 PM EST
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Re: Not Mad
In "Bill James Guide to Baseball Managers", he points out that often what is really needed on a team is a change from one type to the other when a particular personality begins to wear on the players or ceases to be effective any more. So it probably has little to do with whether a manager gets tossed a lot and a lot more to do with whether he fits a particular team at a particular time.
I think Maddon has been the perfect personality for the Rays over the past two years. I am sure not every player has responded to him, but in his overall approach to the team and how to build it, I think he brings exactly the right combination of brains, toughness, intensity, optimism and nurturing. Whether he is able to translate that into winning now that that goal is nearer remains to be seen, but he certainly has earned the chance.
Incidentally, James points out in his introduction that of the 25 greatest managers of all time, 18 were alcoholics. I cannot testify to the accuracy of the statement or whether the 25 he selects are legitimately the top 25, but it should give pause when we assume we can know cause and effect between a particular trait and success.
Personally, I dislike managers who throw public tantrums. I find them laughable and cannot imagine anyone thinks they are "watching their back" when they do it or that they are inspiring the players to try harder. But I am sure others feel quite differently, and my guess is the same holds for players on any team, some of whom might respond to displays of temper and others who likely are alienated by it.
by bobr on
Feb 3, 2008 9:10 PM EST
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Re: Not Mad
Each manager is going to have his detractors and supporters in the clubhouse. Apparently Delmon wasn't too fond of Maddon, but even Danny Bautista once questioned Delmon's respect - not love - of the game and people involved and that was over a single month spent together.
This really wasn't intended to turn into a Delmon v. Maddon debate, but considering the murmurs started last off-season about Delmon being dealt I don't think it has as much to do with his blow up with Joe as it does with the Rays wanting to acquire other positions of talent.
by R.J. Anderson on
Feb 3, 2008 9:32 PM EST
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Re: Not Mad
I have no problem with a manager throwing a tantrum (within reason of course) if it distracts an umpire from a player who is about to get tossed. That's simply taking one for the team.
by ttnorm on
Feb 3, 2008 10:23 PM EST
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Re: Not Mad
by R.J. Anderson on
Feb 3, 2008 10:29 PM EST
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Re: Not Mad
1. they are trying to make a point with an umpire to get them to think about future calls
2, they are trying to show leadership
- they are trying to defend a player
- they are trying to deflect heat from a player, so that player doesn't get ejected
- they are making a general statement of protest, and in so doing fire up their team
- they are frustrated and want to lash out, but with no purpose
- they want to leave the game early for some reason
- they are showing off
- they are by nature insecure and/or defensive
But does it really matter why they do it? Does getting ejected for any reason help the team to win? In a game situation, I'd say no. Over the course of a season, probably not either, since ejections occur so rarely anyway.
Keep in mind that for every time a manager gets ejected, he probably storms out of the dugout 30 times to argue something. The correlation to team success and leadership--if there is any at all--lies in when the manager protests something, and how he protests the issue, rather than whether he is actually ejected for it.
Maddon, by all accounts, is a reasonable man, well spoken, thinks things through. He has an excellent relationship with umpires, treats them respectfully. Thus, when he protests something, they tend to respect him, and in some way, his message comes across more effectively. That is his style. In my view, that's also just being smart; at the same time, it sets a good example for his players. Not all players, mind you--some do not respond to this approach, just as not all unruly students respect an excellent teacher. But on the whole, he knows what he's doing here, better than most, and likely can achieve better long term outcomes as a result.
Thus, I repeat my thesis: this topic is best studied in a psych lab, rather than with statistics, as the lack of conclusiveness in the data set clearly shows. But I like the effort. Interesting.
. comes out of the may can see that many of these reasons are intended to
by Calif on
Feb 3, 2008 11:05 PM EST
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Re: Not Mad
by Calif on
Feb 3, 2008 11:08 PM EST
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Re: Not Mad
I liken it to a fight in hockey. Sometimes you just need someone to go out there and grab some momentum and give it to his team. And from time to time, when the players aren't doing it, it has to be the manager.
by Raysthebarthisyear on
Feb 4, 2008 12:02 AM EST
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Re: Not Mad
by CharlieRay on
Feb 4, 2008 6:54 AM EST
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Re: Not Mad
by stpetelawyer on
Feb 4, 2008 1:00 PM EST
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