DRaysBay: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:



Around SBN: Hoffman Deal Done Bar-right-arrows



Rotation, Bullpen All But Set

From Lancaster:

Maddon also said this morning that he's not averse to carrying the rest of the Rays' roster decisions to the end of next week if necessary. That means the battle for the final spot in the bullpen, which appears to be between Balfour and Dohmann, could have a couple more rounds. As for Evan Longoria's status, Maddon said a couple days ago that he hoped to have it resolved by this weekend to give Longoria time to acclimate wherever he's going to start the season, but he said today he doesn't necessarily think it will be done this weekend.

Earlier in the post he said the official rotation should be announced today and said he'd be shocked if it wasn't: Shields - Garza - Jackson - Hammel - Sonnanstine, to which I have two replies. First, Jeff Niemann pack your bags, you'll be needed very soon when Jackson and/or Hammel get firebombed a few times. Secondly, UGH. Remember that rant about me hating the bullpen? Yeah, well the rotation takes all of my ire now. Jackson AND Hammel? This whole waiting-for-some-kind-of-miracle-light-bulb-clicking-and-not-blowing-up-and-burning-their-faces-off business was cute when we sucked, but aren't we supposed to be contending for a third place spot? Ignoring how pathetic the idea that a third place finish in our division is competing to us, I'd just rather have Niemann than either of them. I guess we'll see him in a similar situation to Longoria.

As for the pen, Dohmann's going to win the spot based on Balfour's contract which allows him to be optioned to Durham. I'm guessing the pen breaks camp as:
Percival - Reyes - Wheeler - Miller - Glover - Dohmann - Howell

As opposed to last year:
Reyes - Camp - Lugo - Stokes - Salas - Glover - Ryu

Improved, and with a chance of being above average. Now if Glover can just miss the team meetings for the next few days...

And now Niemann has been optioned to Durham. Great.

The order: Shields/Garza/Sonnanstine/Jackson&Hammel fill out, not sure in which slot.

0 recs | Comment 34 comments

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

Re: Rotation, Bullpen All But Set
BS. I am from the school of thought where you play to win. You put your best team on the field. Grow a couple pair and just say "hemmel didn't show me anything." This is a load of crap. BS.
Viva Los RAYniacs!

by thebaddancingraysfan on Mar 22, 2008 1:34 PM EDT   0 recs

Re: Rotation, Bullpen All But Set
The phrase "put your best team on the field" has very little relevance to baseball. The real point is to field the team that will give you the best opportunity to win a championship.

For example, let's say Crawford is tired in July but is still the best left fielder on the team even at 70% of his talent. You do not put your best team on the field for that game, because you have 50 games left and you want a rested Crawford down the stretch.

So too with both Longoria and Niemann, although the issue here is not being tired or dinged up. Rather it is an issue of being fully ripe to play in the majors. Niemann especially should be given more AAA time to hone his skills. I would prefer that Hammel flops over the next two months and is then replaced by a more mature Niemann than that Niemann should struggle in TB as he tries to figure things out under the pressure of having to win now-and possibly have his development set back as a result.

We've batted the Longoria situation back and forth enough already so the issues have been identified pretty thoroughly. There is a case that Longoria's minor league performance and spring training play suggest he is ready to excel. But that is not the case at all with Niemann. His first reasonably healthy minor league season was promising but not much more, and demonstrated he still has much to learn. And his spring play has been ok but not particularly impressive. Although he has been around longer, in essence, due to his injuries, he has less pro experience even than Longoria.

by bobr on Mar 22, 2008 2:27 PM EDT   0 recs

Re: Rotation, Bullpen All But Set
"I would prefer that Hammel flops over the next two months and is then replaced by a more mature Niemann than that Niemann should struggle in TB as he tries to figure things out under the pressure of having to win now-and possibly have his development set back as a result."

Fair enough.

by R.J. Anderson on Mar 22, 2008 2:35 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Rotation, Bullpen All But Set
Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't understand why everyone seems to be selling Sonny way short.  He really impressed me last year and I think his numbers indicate that he's much better than the 5+ ERA he had last year.  So why start him in the 5 hole if he's dominated this spring and both Hammel and Jackson have sucked?  Sonny's spring performance has been nothing short of awesome, while they both have ERAs over 7.  I just don't get why he's being shafted.

by slowjo on Mar 22, 2008 2:33 PM EDT   0 recs

Re: Rotation, Bullpen All But Set
I'm certainly not shafting him, I like Sonny a lot. Hammel/Jackson are my problems.

by R.J. Anderson on Mar 22, 2008 2:35 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Rotation, Bullpen All But Set
RJ, I didn't mean to make it sound like you were shafting him or giving him a bad rap.  I've followed this blog a lot and I definitely have picked up on the fact that you guys like him a lot, as do I.  I guess all I was saying is that if what you hypothesized in your article ends up being the opening day pitching rotation, I'm going to be rather disappointed as well.  I feel like Sonny deserves the 4th spot in the rotation when Kazmir is back and to see him in the 5 hole without Kazmir in the rotation...well, it just seems ridiculous.  But very true borb....as long as he's in there somewhere.

by slowjo on Mar 22, 2008 2:56 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Rotation, Bullpen All But Set
No argument from me. Along with R.J., I like Sonnanstine a lot and want him in the rotation. I can appreciate the logic of using him as a spot starter/long reliever, but would prefer him simply as the #4 man in the rotation.

I don't think Sonnanstine's spot on the roster is in jeopardy, only his role as a starter. As long as he has a prominent role on the team, I will be satisfied that Maddon and company made a reasonable decision.

by bobr on Mar 22, 2008 2:46 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Rotation, Bullpen All But Set
When the team is stronger in the rotation from Price and others, Sonny will fit in well in the pen.  I would like him playing a serious role though.  8th inning guy maybe?

by Vic on Mar 22, 2008 3:07 PM EDT   0 recs

Re: Rotation, Bullpen All But Set
The Heater just posted that Sonnanstine is the #3 starter while Kazmir is out. I would guess that unless he messes up, he will remain in the rotation when Kazmir returns.

by bobr on Mar 22, 2008 4:01 PM EDT   0 recs

Re: Thank heavens
3 through 5 all should be on a short leash.

by ttnorm on Mar 22, 2008 6:01 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Rotation, Bullpen All But Set
I wrote a diary over at Rays of light detailing my feelings on this...

It's sad when I feel Hammel has done nothing to earn a spot, and will still pitch before Sonnanstine in the rotation.  

I feel that this and the evident demotion of Longoria to AAA makes us a 5th place team...  Yes, it's that bad...  

Is anyone elseperplexed how Kazmir was all set to pitch last week, and all of a sudden is just playing catch?  Something happened in that bullpen session he threw before his first scheduled start, that we don't know about- I have a sneaky feeling this C- rotation is ours to keep for a few months, and when we are 10 games back in June, it's going to be to late to say "I told you so" regarding Longoria, Hammel, and Jackson-

by nittsallgood on Mar 22, 2008 4:05 PM EDT   0 recs

Re: Rotation, Bullpen All But Set
good at least Sonny will be #3...

by nittsallgood on Mar 22, 2008 4:06 PM EDT   0 recs

Re: Rotation, Bullpen All But Set
even worse is Dohmann is goingto earn the spot over Balfour, because of a "roster clause" in Balfour's contract...  Balfour has been solidand Dohmann has been horrid- I am not a happy camper

by nittsallgood on Mar 22, 2008 4:17 PM EDT   0 recs

Re: Rotation, Bullpen All But Set
Right now there are 4 guys still in camp who are competing for the spot, Balfour, Dohmann, Birkins, and Munter.  I would rank them Munter, Balfour, Birkins, and Dohmann.  Hopefully the last two will be released, with Balfour going to Durham.  

I would also prefer that Glover be the long reliever over Howell.  Howell should be pitching 1-2 innings against the lefty heavy parts of lineups, allowing Miller to be a true LOOGY.

by raysrule07 on Mar 22, 2008 4:32 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Rotation, Bullpen All But Set
Hamell is just plain horrible, I have no idea how me made the team. Really, it just baffles my mind how a guy like Niemann can have a GREAT spring, and get sent down for the likes of Hamell who has had more chances then I can remember, and sucked EVERY time, including this spring! Sickening, it really just turns me off of this year in general. This was supposed to be such an exciting year, things like this and Longo and Kaz being out really put a damper on the beginning.

by davidsmarch on Mar 22, 2008 4:49 PM EDT   0 recs

Re: Rotation, Bullpen All But Set
Niemann by no means had a great spring, much less a GREAT spring.  He had a real nice ERA, but his peripherals weren't at all impressive, especially his K/BB rate(5/5).

by raysrule07 on Mar 22, 2008 4:53 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Rotation, Bullpen All But Set
Even regardless of the quality of stats, it's just spring training.  

Niemann still has much to prove, while Hammell's stay in the rotation is virtually assured to come to an end once Kazmir returns fully healthy (please be soon).

by RATW on Mar 22, 2008 5:46 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Rotation, Bullpen All But Set
I feel like all the positive momentum and vibes that were picked up during this February and March have been shot down with Longoria being sent down, and Jackson/Hammel "earning" rotation spots.

I hope someone asks Maddon if Jackson and Hammel will at least be on a short leash.

I don't think it will be a good business decision to send Longoria down to the minors because of the message you are sending to future recruits.

by websterjtc on Mar 22, 2008 5:34 PM EDT   0 recs

god help them if they fail badly
Nothing says "We're still the DEVIL Rays" like bad PR moves and a horrid April.  I hope I am wrong, but if Longo goes to AAA and Kazmir ends up being really hurt, all of the good will the brass has recieved will be all gone.  As will the idea we can keep our stars when it's time to get out of town.  And forget a new park too...

by nittsallgood on Mar 22, 2008 5:48 PM EDT   0 recs

Re: Dramatic much?
Ya, maybe a little- haven't we all been down this road before though?  Just feels like that starting 5 should be better, right?

by nittsallgood on Mar 22, 2008 6:37 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Rotation, Bullpen All But Set
I won't go on here, because I railed earlier, but there are some similarities to Niemann and Longoria.   I think Hammel is more likely to get firebombed but I see some danger here how the team is conducting their business.  They would rather sacrifice a couple of weeks to get an extra year of service/arbitration.

I would love some pointed questions once and for all about being cost-prohibitive and what is smart.  I sense some contradictions here, and I find that sad.  It won't preclude me from enjoying the season, but I have my complaints.  I would rather the NRO shoot straight and not be coy about their intentions.

Joe

by joedobr on Mar 22, 2008 7:13 PM EDT   0 recs

Re: Rotation, Bullpen All But Set
Joe, Joe, Joe... I hate that we have to disagree so much, but some of your points are "iffy" at best.

I realize that alot of people think that Longoria is "ready" now and would benefit from starting the year in the majors than spending the first month/month-and-a-half in Durham. However, it's not about having Longoria an extra year/money. That is something that just is a bonus, actually.

Longoria is not a clear-cut, "gonna hit .300, hit 20+ HR and play a solid-if not spectacular" MLB-ready 3B. Though the quotes regarding him being not ready are just as "iffy", using his inability to recognize hittable breaking pitches, he isn't really ready. He has shown great plate discipline in Spring Training, though Spring stats are always shady(Elliot Johnson was leading the Grapefruit League in avg., when I checked last earlier this week), but he was the guy whose BB %age plummeted to "geez, Evan, take a pitch" levels in his stay at AAA to end last season. He did turn it up a notch in the playoffs, but still...he needs to work on taking pitches a bit better. Also, Evan has booted a few easy plays this Spring and any fan won't want during the season...especially if he doesn't hit the ground running with his bat. Give him a month or so, let him relax and know that his time is near and he's just gotta worry about bettering himself with simple defensive plays and becoming a more complete hitter. It worked wonders for Ryan Braun, David Wright and Ryan Zimmerman(they all got mid-season starts to their careers). If we chose to give Longoria the job out of Spring Training, it'd be vastly similar to what was done with Alex Gordon. He barely got enough AAA ABs the season before and the pressure for him to perform got to him.

by Jacob Larsen on Mar 22, 2008 9:25 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Hm
I didn't know the Rays distributed a press release on the situation.

by R.J. Anderson on Mar 22, 2008 9:48 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Rotation, Bullpen All But Set
Jake, it's all about the extra year.  20 games in AAA isn't going to make a bit of difference in his development.  Also, Ryan Braun and Ryan Zimmerman are terrible examples to support your argument.

First of all, Zimmerman had 63 games in AA, 0 games in AAA and only spent 67 total games in the minors.  So using him as an example would be supporting the people who say call him up, he's ready.  It would have been like calling up Longoria in 06'.

Braun obliterated spring training, hitting .353 and hitting 5 homeruns.  The Brewers said he needed more time and they were lying.  He had an 1.100 OPS in AAA before he got called up.  

And what the hell are you talking about here:
but he was the guy whose BB %age plummeted to "geez, Evan, take a pitch" levels in his stay at AAA to end last season.

His K/BB ratio was 22/29 in AAA.  He walked 22 times in 128 plate appearances.  That's 17% of his  at bats.  He knows how to take a pitch and that didn't change in AAA.  

by Tyler on Mar 22, 2008 11:25 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Rotation, Bullpen All But Set
Simply put, I politely disagree...I don't expect Brooks Robinson or Mike Schmidt, I expect some turbulent times, but when he was told that he could come to Spring Training and EARN the freakin' job, and he has played and done everything that was asked of him, then why does the club pull the rug?  Its just not the right message, plain and simple.

Too many circumstances, what will 15 AAA games give the guy?  He is saavy enough and ready, and now you risk angering the player even though its good "business" for the team, just like Niemann to a smaller degree.

Joe

by joedobr on Mar 22, 2008 11:59 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Rotation, Bullpen All But Set
You mean 20 games in Durham won't make him hit the breaking pitches and turn him into an all-universe fielder?

by R.J. Anderson on Mar 23, 2008 12:08 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Rotation, Bullpen All But Set
I'm pissed now, Joboo. Look, I go to you. I stick up for you. You no help me now, I say, f*** you, Joboo. I do it myself.

by ttnorm on Mar 23, 2008 12:20 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Rotation, Bullpen All But Set
If he needs 20, then why not 60 or 80?   I think you get the point:)

I just wish the organization would be as accountable to their own word and standard as they give their talent.  This will NOT be lost on Longoria, let's hope for the fans' sake he doesn't take it personally.

Its just an excuse unfortunately, but hey that's why were fans.

Joe

by joedobr on Mar 23, 2008 12:18 AM EDT   0 recs

Re: Rotation, Bullpen All But Set
It could be that he doesn't come up at 20.  It depends how he plays when the games count.

by ttnorm on Mar 23, 2008 12:22 AM EDT   0 recs

Re: Rotation, Bullpen All But Set
That leads me to back to when I talk about giving the organization and the player each your very best word and being fortright.  I sense some sort of disconnect with the Kazmir situation, probably not to big at this point, but I am proud and happy Longoria is taking the high road.

If Kazmir is "improving" as ttnorm indicates, then doesn't the bar of expectations get duly raised as well?

Joe

by joedobr on Mar 23, 2008 5:54 PM EDT   0 recs

Re: Rotation, Bullpen All But Set
I think the bullpen after the last two weeks has been set  Percival; Reyes; Miller; Wheeler; Glover; Balfour: Howell.  Unfortunately  Dohmann to miss out.  Front office will wait until as late as possible to make decision on either Balfour or Dohmann as they both have to clear waivers before playing in Durham.  The way they have pitched this spring Balfour derserves job and poor Dohmann will battle because of the lateness of announcing roster to get picked up by another team assuring he will remain with the Rays and play at Durham
crazy about the rays

by The Nut on Mar 25, 2008 4:50 PM EDT   0 recs

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Founded in February 2005

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Img_0143_small
IT'S THE FUCKING NEW YEAR

Recent FanPosts

Small
Jeff Niemann vs. David Price
Biscuit_small
Some Slight Criticisms on the MLB Network
Maddonbear2_small
BCS Championship Game Thread
Rays_small
Smoltz a Red Sox?
Small
why no love for juan salas?
Small
Lineup, Rotation, mid-season, 2009?
Tampa_bay_rays_1024x768_small
Vote for BTB for best sports blog.
Small
Chase for Ohman has only dropped to 5
Small
Aw we love you too, Cliff
52376727_small
What the Yanks signing of Angel Berroa really means.

Post_icon New FanPost All FanPosts Carrot-mini

FanShots

Quick hits of video, photos, quotes, chats, links and lists that you find around the web.

Recent FanShots

The Boston Red Sox were close to signing free-agent outfielder Rocco...
jlarsen (DRays Bay): What do you expect of David Price's 2009? I dare to...
New Screenshot of MLB 08:The Show for PS3.
Olney says Giambi is on the verge of agreeing to a deal with the A's worth...
Anyone interested in splitting season tickets?
According to ESPN Radio's Bruce Levine, the Cubs signed Milton Bradley to...
Rays vs Red Sox Game 7 on MLB Network
More gold from Chastain
Catcher Michel Hernandez, who played in five September games and was the...
Updated Rays Stadium News

Post_icon New FanShot All FanShots Carrot-mini


Bossman

Maddonbear2_small R.J. Anderson

Img00566_small Tommy Rancel

Small Erik Hahmann

Juniors

52376727_small rglass44

ad

Site Meter