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Come Off The Ledge

From overconfidence to depression, thus is the emotional turbulence suffered by Ray fans over the past two weeks. I tend to avoid being temperamental, hence why you don't see cursing or tantrums on random items, instead I would like to think that I always have the big picture in mind. You didn't see a ton of Evan outrage from me because I felt little. Scott Kazmir's injury concerns me, but probably not as much as David Price's injury, after all, if nothing else the Rays are guaranteeing that if Kazmir's elbow does blow it will come after we cash him in, that's just smart business.


Ryan Rupe, just another of the young arms rushed by the Rays.

Star-divide

Some would accuse me of caring more about the business aspect than winning; however I can guarantee you that's hardly the case. Jeff Niemann's demotion caused a firestorm, but looking at the move logically it makes sense. Is Niemann currently better than Jason Hammel or Edwin Jackson? I'm not so sure. Niemann barely topped five innings per start last season in Triple-A Durham, he's also had issues staying healthy. Granted Niemann arrived in thinner form, but remember that post a while back, where I applauded the Rays for sticking to their plan? That same consensus still exists from me today.

I also suggested that perhaps 500 innings pitched in the minors before being called up was becoming a standard. James Shields and Andrew Sonnanstine both placed either over 500 or slightly below 500, both arrived on the big league scene looking far more polished than the days of Dewon Brazelton and Seth McClung. To date Jeff Niemann has thrown 238 minor league innings; he won't reach 500 or even 400 innings before making his big league debut, and it's a shame. I think a fair statement is that pitching more so than any other aspect of the game requires repetition and feeling comfortable in your own skin.

For Shields that meant developing a "plus pitch" and transforming into a better pitcher in general. In 2004 he posted a 2.6:1 K:BB ratio, in 2005 it went to 3.35:1, and in the 61 innings prior to his call-up in 2006 his K:BB ratio was an amazing 10.6:1. When I say he developed a plus pitch, I mean it, a scouting report following his 2004 days in Bakersfield stated he had an average change-up, nobody is calling that change average anymore.

Sonnanstine consistently showed he could handle a heavy workload without losing his control, and along the way developed arm angles and grips to give him an otherwise absent edge. Everyone knows Sonnanstine doesn't throw heat, but without toiling in Montgomery and Durham would his wisdom of the craft be at such a high level?

You can say only a few pitchers have nothing else to learn in order to improve their game, in fact the Atlanta Braves 1990's trio could be the only conceivable choices, and perhaps Johan Santana. The Rays are simply allowing the learning curve to happen on minor league time rather than costing the big league club, allowing for a sharper and more complete version of the pitcher to grace Tropicana Field's mound. In a business sense they're effectively juicing the best years out of the pitcher by leaving them down just a bit longer.

What I'm about to say won't be popular, but the Rays made the right decision with Niemann, and it goes beyond simply that he's not ready. Jason Hammel has thrown 640 minor league innings and he's out of options, and at the tender age of 25 figures to be on a short leash as one of the back-end starters. Edwin Jackson has also topped 500 minor league innings, but premature promotion by the Dodgers have essentially made Edwin a plague on the roster. I won't say they're as good as they'll ever be, but they're likely more prepared for success than Niemann would be, whether or not that translates over to actual success isn't guaranteed, but for now the team is simply doing as they should be and not as we, the fans, generally want; sticking to their plan.

0 recs  |  Comment 15 comments

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Re: Come Off The Ledge
Well-done R.J. I think you are exactly on the point.

by bobr on Mar 26, 2008 6:32 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Come Off The Ledge
Well said. Emotion can and often clouds judgement. Fans often are too invested emotionally to see the entire picture correctly in most cases. Deep inside they know what's right, their heart just tugs at them to not believe it.

Good post. Seems like we are on a realty dose today in the Rays blogosphere.

Eric SanInocencio www.mvn.com/mlb-rays

by EricSanSan on Mar 26, 2008 7:10 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Come Off The Ledge
i agree with everything you are saying but in the case of Niemann he had almost 300 innings in college. I dont want to say they are the same, but Jackson was drafted out of high school and Hammel went to a JuCo for 2 years (i think). So in some regards Niemann is either close or already at the 500 innings mark depending on how you look at it. They should be weighted somehow as he was more developed than either Hammel or Jackson at the points they began their pro careers.

by SeanG on Mar 26, 2008 7:15 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Come Off The Ledge
Indeed I neglected to mention the college aspect, however the injury aspect has essentially evened those out.

by R.J. Anderson on Mar 26, 2008 7:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Come Off The Ledge
Well stated article; I am in agreement.

But don't forget Chad Gaudin and his 220 IP prior to his major league debut.  That one also worked out swimmingly for the Rays!

by RATW on Mar 26, 2008 7:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Come Off The Ledge
Good piece and right on point about emotions and the decision making process!

The 500 IP standard makes sense as a rule of thumb but it won't fit every case.  Niemann is a good example.  Price will hopefully be another.  OTOH this pace has served the prospect status of McGee and Davis quite well.

I agree that Niemann needs more seasoning for the reasons that you mentioned but I doubt that he will benefit from a 2009 season in Durham.  Generally some allowance sould be expected from college guys.  

by ttnorm on Mar 26, 2008 7:22 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Come Off The Ledge
Outstanding post.  I've been quietly following the Longoria, Niemann, et al discussion with great interest, but haven't chimed in because others (like bobr) have already said what I would have said, only better.

RJ's point about Jackson and his premature promotion by the Dodgers is exactly correct, and absolutely relevant to the Longoria discussion.  As a player, it's generally much easier to learn, build confidence, and operate under less pressure when not brought forth too quickly.  As management, the same approach allows for better evaluation, and maintains maximum flexibility.  I also think that it avoids the concept of painting the giant target on the chest of the prized rookie.  But this only works if managment has the ability to stay focused, and not be overly influenced by the fans or media.  And this seems to be the case for the Rays.

By the way, I am a Jackson fan from the time he was on the Dodgers (I am also a Dodger fan).  But how the Dodgers handled him--rushed him--helped no one.  Edwin was not ready, his savvy did not yet match his skills, a lot of hard lessons had to be learned at the wrong level, and ultimately it reduced his value to the team--and painted the Dodgers into a corner when they sought trading partners.  Hopefully the Rays can make something big out of this project...and they went in knowing it was a project.

The Rays are showing considerable managerial savvy (both on and off the field) in their building of the team, beyond what you'd normally expect.  I think the high degree of collaboration between front office, field management, and marketing people will ultimately either prove to be a modern model for how to run a franchise in the post-Moneyball era, or at least prove to be a noble failure--since luck is always a factor in human endeavors.  But I suspect the former.

Kudos to the management team for an off-season well spent...now let's just see how it starts to roll out...exciting times.

by Calif on Mar 26, 2008 8:03 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Come Off The Ledge
A very well-written post RJ, I agree that the Rays have made the correct decision with Niemann and with Longoria for that matter.  I also concur that some credit should be given to time in college, particularly at the level played by Niemann and Price,  But, as you retorted, injuries have kept Niemann from gaining additional polish in pro-ball.  One further aspect with Niemann is his physical size, creating additional difficulties with the consistency in the repetition of his mechanics.  

by bobbyray1 on Mar 26, 2008 8:25 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Come Off The Ledge
Great post.

Jackson and Hammel both still have very good arms.  There is no reason to give up on them before they have too.  Hammel will be on the shorter leash and Niemann should be up soon.

by Tyler on Mar 26, 2008 8:34 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Come Off The Ledge
I didn't think too many were clamoring for Niemann to be in the majors now.  Niemann's track record doesn't suggest that he's big-league ready quite yet.

I think most of the second guessing is occurring over the Longoria decision, and rightfully so.

by GomesSweetGomes on Mar 26, 2008 11:30 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Come Off The Ledge
James Shields- drafted out of HS, needed 500+ minor league innings

Andy Sonnanstine- 375th pick out of Kent St. Needed 500 innings in the minors

Edwin Jackson- Drafted out of HS as a 17 year old, and needed atleast 500 innings in the minors

Jason Hammel- Drafted in the 10th round out of JUCO as a 19 year old, needed 500+ innings in the minors

Jeff Niemann- Drafted 4th overall. Threw 300 innings at a D1 college. Pitched in a college world series. He is 25 years old, he wouldve made it to "The Show" by 23 if he didnt get hurt. Guys like Niemann don't need 500 innings in the minors. Verlander, Lincecum, Andrew Miller, etc these guys dont need 500 minor league innings

I think it is possible that Niemann 'could' benefit a small amount more from going to Durham. But he is 25, hes pitched a full year in AAA, he seems to have lost a little juice post-injury but I dont see him getting much more out of AAA.

by blazinrayz on Mar 27, 2008 2:14 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Come Off The Ledge
All true, but the injury is a major issue. It essentially means his college record becomes meaningless as he has to begin all over, making adjustments to his new physical limitations and getting his mechanics in order. His great year was in 2003, and between then and 2006 he pitched a total of just 188.1 innings. So in essence, since 2003, he has pitched 319.1 innings in 4 years.

Still more important is that, although he pitched reasonably well in 2007, he was erratic. He averaged just over 5 innings per start. And watching him pitch this spring, in his few innings, it was pretty clear he struggled with command. I think he has plenty to work on in Durham, and throwing him in against major league competition would be a big mistake. Not only would he most likely struggle, but his inability to go more than 5 innings would be a heavy burden on the bullpen. So not only would it probably hurt his progress, but would likely hurt the Rays chances of winning as well.

by bobr on Mar 27, 2008 7:23 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Come Off The Ledge
"I think it is possible that Niemann 'could' benefit a small amount more from going to Durham. But he is 25, hes pitched a full year in AAA, he seems to have lost a little juice post-injury but I dont see him getting much more out of AAA."

And I don't see him lasting as a starter if he can't get past the 5th inning without reaching triple digit pitch counts constantly.

by R.J. Anderson on Mar 27, 2008 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Come Off The Ledge
NICE, I think Jackson and Hammel both still can do a nice job.

by Lilydffghy123 on Mar 27, 2008 5:09 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Come Off The Ledge
I think keeping Niemann in AAA for at least half the year would benefit the team more in 2009 and 2010 than getting him up early would. Any extra polish he gains in the minors benefits this team when it matters as opposed to now.

by rglass44 on Mar 27, 2008 12:49 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

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